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#5832
Roman Catholic Doctrine on Mary
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- Last updated date
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- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
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1408
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Description
The goal of this debate is the pursuit of truth. We accept Jesus is Lord of the Christian Church(es). Certain doctrines defocus whom we worship and whom we follow for spiritual growth.
Roman Catholic Doctrine on Mary:
Mary is the Mother of God.
Marian apparitions (supernatural appearances by Mary)
Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin.
Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven.
Mary has a role within the church and in the life of all Christians.
The veneration of Mary and prayer to Mary
Rules:
1. Both parties accept the Bible as divinely inspired and authoritative.
2. For consistency, I suggest NRSV Bible will be used as the reference when citing scripture.
3. In the final round, only counterarguments addressing previous points will be allowed; no new arguments may be introduced
Round 1
All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord are His sheep. John 10:16 Jesus gave the analogy of his sheep in different folds, so by extension we will find followers of Jesus in one of His different folds, be it the catholic fold, protestant fold or other "Jesus" fold.
For the majority one's faith is determined by the immediate family and/or geography. People are busy with life, earning and supporting family so that time is limited to analyze doctrine, and so typically we accept and trust our pastor, rabi or priest to be our guides.
So, when We are critiquing a doctrine, we are not critiquing people who believe a doctrine, but we are critiquing leadership that potentially allows millions to be led astray or on a tangent with a false doctrine. Isn't that what the devil wants - anything so we do not get close to the truth.
Catholic Doctrine on Mary:
Mary Mother or God/Queen of Heaven
The Bible refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus (John 2:1 John 2:3 Acts 1:14) never as the mother of God.
Granted that Jesus is God, but calling Mary the mother of God is presumptions as God has no mother. The Creator was not created. It mocks God and does Mary a disservice. There is an order in Heaven, even Jesus acknowledges "the Father is Greater than I " (John 14:28). Who is man to set the order of heaven!!
The title queen of heaven when it appears in the Bible is in the context of serving other idols/gods (Jeremiah 44). The title queen of heaven is a reference paganism that exalts a goddess when we should be focusing of the true King of heaven, Yahweh,
Marian apparitions (supernatural appearances by Mary)
First, I would like to point out that where the supernatural interacts to teaching humans this is always bad. Fallen angles in Genesis (6:4), Gabriel with Mohamed creating Islam, the angel Moroni interacting with Joseph Smith to create Mormonism
Paul warns: Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14)
So, looking at some of the approved apparition of Mary
- 1531, Guadalupe, Mexico - Mary proclaimed herself "the mother of the true God who gives life"
- 1830, Paris, France - Mary commissioned the "Miraculous Medal" made in order to spread devotion to Our Lady.
- 1846, La Salette, France - Her appearance in sorrow and tears called for conversion and penance for sins.
- 1858, Lourdes, France - Under the title "the Immaculate Conception," she called for penance and prayer for the conversion of sinners.
- 1871, Pontmain, France - Mary's message "But pray my children. God will hear you in a short time. My Son allows Himself to be moved by compassion."
- 1879, Knock, County Mayo, Ireland - During a pouring rain, the figures of Mary, Joseph, John the Apostle and a lamb on a plain altar appeared over the gable of the village chapel, enveloped in a bright light. None of them spoke. At least fifteen people (ages 5-75) saw the apparition.
- 1917, Fatima, Portugal - Mary, who identified herself as "Our Lady of the Rosary." urged prayer of the rosary, penance for the conversion of sinners and consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart.
- 1932-33, Beauraing, Belgium - Mary is believed to have come thirty-three times. Identifying herself as "the Immaculate Virgin" and "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven," she called for prayer for the conversion of sinners.
- 1933, Banneux, Belgium - Mary Called herself the "Virgin of the Poor," promised to intercede for the poor, the sick and the suffering.
Hence what we see being taught by the apparitions are:
- Miraculous Medal to create devotion to Mary
- "The Immaculate Conception"
- call for penance
- "The Immaculate Virgin"
- "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven,"
Mary's last words in the Bible are "Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you" John 2:5 Mary Points to Jesus, Jesus points to God - We would do well to follow her advice and not follow her. These Apparitions that in part promote self are out of character with the Mary presented in the Bible
Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.
We are not disputing a virgin birth we are disputing Perpetual Virginity
Mathew 1
24: When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife,
25: but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.
The plain reading is Joseph knew Mary.
Mathew 13
54: He came to his hometown and began to teach the people in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these deeds of power?
55: Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56: And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"
Mark 3
31: Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him.
32: A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you."
33: And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
34: And looking at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mark 6
1: He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
2: On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, "Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
The context is plainly familial, and the locals knew this family
What is the hang up about Mary having a family after Jesus
Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin.
What is being believed here is
Mary was born without sin
Mary never sinned
Mary is the only person who did not need a redeemer (Jesus)
This just does not fit the human condition...
There is no evidence of these statement in the Bible
God can handle sin and sinners - He is on a mission
Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven.
Pope Pius XII defined The Assumption of Mary it on November 1950
The Bible has 2 examples to People going to heaven without dying
Elijah (2 Kings 2:10) and Enoch (Gen 5:24)
Whether Mary did or did not going to heaven without dying is speculative, and to create a dogma over an unwitnessed and undocumented event lack mental rigor, and only add to the god like image mystical and somewhat superstitious view of Mary
The veneration of Mary and prayer to Mary
Search the catholic web sites e.g.
and you fine many prayers to Mary. Catholics would say we are asking for her to intercede but clearly many prayer are also asking her to help
1 Tim 2:5
5: For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,
Mathew 4:10
10: Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! for it is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.'"
Matt 17
25: "Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me.
26: I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
We can only know God by what Jesus declares to us
Jesus Points to God
Another example is where Adonijah, the fourth son of King David asked Solomon's mother to ask King Solomon to marry Abishag. He broke Royal Protocol by asking Solomon's mom and not going directly to the King. Solomon denied the request and ordered him to be executed. (1 Kings 2:13...)
Obviously, this example is a stretch, but the point is lets reach out to God directly
Mary has a role within the church and in the life of all Christians.
Mary is blessed. It is however a distraction without any support from scripture to have Mary statues and prayers. The Rosary has text added to it that is not in Bible. Again, we are on dangerous ground adapting the Bible to our dogmas.
Finally, I observe belief and logic do not necessarily go hand in hand
the spiritual side of the human condition is stronger than the rational side, but I conclude that yes Mary is blessed but let's focus on our Creator God and his high Priest and King Jesus.
Greetings, thank you, thank you readers.
"Mary Mother or God/Queen of Heaven
The Bible refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus (John 2:1 John 2:3 Acts 1:14) never as the mother of God.
Granted that Jesus is God, but calling Mary the mother of God is presumptions as God has no mother. The Creator was not created. It mocks God and does Mary a disservice. There is an order in Heaven, even Jesus acknowledges "the Father is Greater than I " (John 14:28). Who is man to set the order of heaven!!"
Being that this is a debate, folks expect opposition in some form so I'll introduce a different perspective which may divide the two sides in this topic or perhaps drive harmony once proper understanding is reached.
I'm going to speak as closely as the scripture puts it lining everything up to make a true statement that the scripture speaks this .
Mary is the mother of GOD with us. I'm not giving any credence to Catholicism as I haven't read anything about it including the word itself in scripture. But I'm taking the statements that we know about and building cases for them. The statements themselves.
Mary is the mother of God .........with us . Rather was the mother. Mary was the mother of a child, notice how I switched it to child. Now God , the spirit of God is no child. One thing you'll notice, I'm going to make distinctions, make it plain, speak with great plainness of speech the scripture says.
She was the mother of a son named Emmanuel/Immanuel.
She was the mother of God with us.
Not the spirit of God. So not the spirit of God so how was she mother of God with us? Isn't God just a spirit? Was HE just a spirit at that time? NO.
He took on another nature.
As we read in Hebrews 2 , he took not on the nature of angels but we learn he was a partaker of flesh and blood .
That lines up with 1 Timothy 3:16 where we read GOD was manifested in the flesh . Who's flesh? The flesh Mary gave birth to.
She was the mother of GOD manifested flesh. Now I doubt the Catholics break it down like this from scripture because again I don't read Catholicism in scripture. But this is a way to take that statement "Mary mother of God" and make it scriptural based. But it takes expounding as Jesus expounded to his disciples. Otherwise you'll be confounded as what those parables did to those that didn't have the mystery. For 1 Timothy 3:16 says great is the mystery of godliness.
Now let me move on due to character limitation. I can only fit so much.
"Marian apparitions (supernatural appearances by Mary)
First, I would like to point out that where the supernatural interacts to teaching humans this is always bad. Fallen angles in Genesis (6:4), Gabriel with Mohamed creating Islam, the angel Moroni interacting with Joseph Smith to create Mormonism
Paul warns: Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14)"
So we have a disguise of an angel, of a serpent and by God's permission even an image of Mary. So this could be or what is most likely true based on an illusion as the scripture teaches sending them strong delusion to believe a lie.
I believe it was an evil spirit that asked for permission first.
So that's Job 1 , this is actually Satan.
"6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
See there is all kinds of trials and tribulations going on and those that are to be tested will be found in truth or in a false way. So the scripture teaches to try the spirit. Those that know the spirit of truth know the spirit of error would know this apparition is of the devil . Nevertheless indeed an apparition such as this could exist to the credit of those reporting sightings.
"Mary has a role within the church and in the life of all Christians."
Mary does have a role. Joseph has a role and the Romans and the devil and Judas and Matthew, James, John, Moses, Aquila and Priscilla , etc.
Scriptures say whatsoever things written before time were written for our learning.
"The veneration of Mary and prayer to Mary"
I'll break it down this way to bridge the gap between the misinterpretation the folks referred to as the catholics have and a further lost view to the outsiders have of them and what they're struggling to communicate to form some valid basis even scripturally.
According to the scriptures, God was with us, God was with Mary. So in praying to God, to where God is, there is Mary also. She was with the one to be the mediator and birthed the one to be the mediator. Works the same way with praise and veneration. Prayer and praise to God who was with Mary,inside Mary, where Mary was.
"Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven."
Assumption is not doctrine. However I'll say this. The spirit goes back to God who gave it who is in heaven. We have Stephen over in ACTS illustrating this.
"Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin."
She certainly was granted she was born again prior to being conceived. According to the scripture there's no time that's too early to be saved and cleansed of sin. Salvation was predestinated before the foundation of the world.
"Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus."
Mary was a virgin before , during and after until she actually laid with a man. She always be a virgin concerning Jesus's birth. Not regarding anybody else but Jesus.
In addition to the so called prayer to Mary, I'll say this as well.
It is really only to where she is as a residing place where the Father is praying to the Father who art in heaven .
How does that prayer go? The LORD is with thee .
Round 2
I would like to thank my contender Con (Mall) for participating in this debate. First, I will address the issues Con has raised
Con States:She was the mother of a son named Emmanuel/Immanuel.She was the mother of God with us.
No one is disagreeing with this
Jesus Emmanuel means God with us.
Con States:He took on another nature.As we read in Hebrews 2 , he took not on the nature of angels but we learn he was a partaker of flesh and blood.That lines up with 1 Timothy 3:16 where we read GOD was manifested in the flesh . Who's flesh? The flesh Mary gave birth to.
We agree God manifested in flesh - both Catholics and protestants agree Jesus is one person with two natures human and divine
Mary a young girl was highly honored to be selected to give the "fully human nature" Christians universally agree human nature came thro Mary
Con Quotes 1 Timothy 3:16 which saysWithout any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: He was revealed in flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.
Without doubt i.e. without controversy - this verse is a summary of Christian truth......(see commentary Enduring Word Bible Commentary 1 Timothy Chapter 3)
Sorry, none of these are arguments that support any of the Roman Catholics doctrines on Mary, but are statements that are typically and universally believed by nearly all Christians
On Marian apparitions Con States:See there is all kinds of trials and tribulations going on and those that are to be tested will be found in truth or in a false way. So the scripture teaches to try the spirit.
I agree scripture say try the spirit
Jesus says in Mathew 7
15: "Beware of false prophets.....
16: You will know them by their fruits.
So, we agree judge by the fruit
My argument is that what is being taught by the apparitions is basically nonsense i.e. but pointing to self and not pointing to Jesus or God - e.g.
- Miraculous Medal to create devotion to Mary
- "The Immaculate Conception"
- call for penance
- "The Immaculate Virgin"
- "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven,"
I am not saying Roman Catholics are not sincere. There are great Christians on all sides. We are saved by faith. Very simply believe "Jesus is Lord and you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). God will judge by your works (not doctrine). However, I am saying it is possible to fool all people (Roman Catholics) on some things all of the time
Con states:Mary does have a role. Joseph has a role and the Romans and the devil and Judas and Matthew, James, John, Moses, Aquila and Priscilla, etc.
We all have roles in the church.
Roman Catholics are saying Mary has a role in the life of all Christians!!
Yes, we can honor Mary, and she is a great example, but to pray to her or say she a role in the life of all Christians is elevating to the divine
1 Tim 2:5
5: For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,
In revelation the angel tells John - Worship God! - not angels and by extension not Mary
Rev 22
8: I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me;
9: but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
Do not worship the jewel box worship the jewel
In fact, do not worship anything created
Only God and Jesus are pre-existent and deserve our worship
Con states:Assumption is not doctrine.
Sorry: Romans Catholics teach Mary's assumption as a doctrine
Con states on Immaculate Conception:She certainly was granted she was born again prior to being conceived.
Paul says in Rom 3:23
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Making Mary an exception to the human condition it is contrary to the teaching of Bible
Con on Perpetual Virginity states:Mary was a virgin before, during and after until she actually laid with a man. She always be a virgin concerning Jesus's birth. Not regarding anybody else but Jesus.
We agree, but that is not an argument to support the Catholic doctrine on for Perpetual Virginity
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Now extending the discussion:
In the Parable of the Sower (Mark 4) the farmer (the Church) is responsible to tend the ground. The devil tries to stop and seed (word), and the if the ground has thorns (distractions) we have a less productive harvest. This ground has been "spoiled" by fallible doctrines and fallible Popes ex cathedra statements
Extending the infallible argument (https://www.debateart.com/debates/5807-the-catholic-church-is-infallible) and recognizing that two Mary dogmas were declared by Popes, namely
Immaculate Conception: Was declared by Pope Eugene IV after much and civil war between Franciscans and Dominicans in 1439,
Assumption was defined by Pope Pius XII 1950.
I will review the main text used by Roman Catholic Church for apostolic succession. Since apostolic succession is the reason Pope can declare doctrines ex cathedra i.e. free from the possibility of error. The main text that is used by the Roman Catholic Church is
Mathew 16
15: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16: Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17: And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
There are four promises made to Peter:
- you are renamed Peter (means Rock) and on this rock I will build my church
- gates of Hades will not prevail against it
- will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven
- what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Rock here is accepted to be both Peters Confession of Jesus (God) and also that Jesus will build his church on this rock. With the later, this is not giving full universal power over the while church. Jesus has that power. Peter himself in his epistle never assume this power.
1 Peter 5
1: Now as an elder myself ..... I exhort the elders among you....
4: And when the chief shepherd appears, you will win the crown of glory ...
He Peter, does not lord it, treats other elders as equals and never promote a successor....
As regarding the gates of hades will not prevail against the church - history show the church - protestant and catholic have erred. Christianity period has failed to live to Jesus's prayer (John 17)
20: I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. They are one as we are one.
Sadly, Christians have done a pretty good job at killing each other!!!
As regards the keys: It was peter who open the gospel / holy spirit to the Jews (Acts 2) and Peter who open the holy spirit to the gentiles (Acts 10)
Finally, as regards loosening and binding. It seems all sides agree all church bodies can forgive or exclude/include from the communion (church) -all churches inherit these promises to Peter.
(Tertullian "On Modesty" chapter 21)
Perhaps Peter is a chief steward but nowhere in the Bible is full supreme universal authority given to Peter.
Other point include:
- The council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 James is the leader not Peter....
- Acts makes no record of a "pope" in Peter - conspicuous in that this is missing!!!
Catholic Church's claim to infallibility stands on (amongst others) apostolic succession. Showing the institution of Pope over all Christians is flawed, and as a consequence the dogmas declared by Popes are also flawed.
"No one is disagreeing with this
Jesus Emmanuel means God with us."
Thanks so she was the mother of God with us.
"Sorry, none of these are arguments that support any of the Roman Catholics doctrines on Mary, but are statements that are typically and universally believed by nearly all Christians"
I'm sure I made it clear that I would say nothing to support Roman Catholic doctrines. However what I will do and have been doing is demonstrating validity in at least some of the language used in said doctrines. But not as a whole, no.
Thus far, you appear to agree with my breakdown of the language. Which in the language, it may have been how the doctrines started but then became super corrupted or watered down as the scripture teaches if I'm not mistaken.
"Roman Catholics are saying Mary has a role in the life of all Christians!!
Yes, we can honor Mary, and she is a great example, but to pray to her or say she a role in the life of all Christians is elevating to the divine"
She does have a role in all children of God according to the scriptures. Her role is a figure written in scripture written before time written for the learning of all childrens of God.
The only valid context to place Mary and prayer together in is to the Spirit of God who has the spirit of Mary. The Roman Catholics just have it out of order praying to Mary to intercede to the spirit of God.
"Making Mary an exception to the human condition it is contrary to the teaching of Bible"
You're not understanding what I'm saying. It's not an exception. God can save someone from birth and live a sinless life from then on like Job or like John I believe was already filled with the holy Spirit from birth. Now was this in the case of Mary? Possibly, possibly not. That is the only validity the doctrine can serve .
"We agree, but that is not an argument to support the Catholic doctrine on for Perpetual Virginity"
Once again, I'm not arguing to support Catholic doctrine. I'm arguing the possible validity to some degree in where these doctrines have formed.
So in terms of this topic where the description has stated the goal is the pursuit of truth, I have explained the truth of all the validity between scripture and heretical bastardization of teachings.
Round 3
There seems to be some confusion
I am arguing against the Roman Catholic doctrine on Mary
Con is supposed to be supporting the Roman Catholic doctrine on Mary but states
I would say nothing to support Roman Catholic doctrines.
The Mary doctrine in the Roman catholic church is a dogma.
A dogma of the Roman Catholic Church is defined as "a truth revealed by God, which the magisterium of the Roman Church declared as binding, i.e. as needing to be believed by all Roman Catholic adherents
e.g. Popes have declared anyone not accepting Mary as the mother of God, are anathema (excommunicated from the Roman Church) (ref Council of Ephesus)
The second issue is as I stated previously:
we are critiquing leadership that potentially allows millions to be led astray or on a tangent with false dogmas. Isn't that what the devil wants - anything so we do not get close to the truth.
Finally Con keeping point out
Mary is mother of Emanual i.e. mother of God with us
This is true, but a play on words does not make her the mother of divinity
So, to conclude - on a positive note
The invisible universal church that transcends denominations, is led by Christ, driven with history, and contain fallible people, fallible leaders and fallible dogmas but quoting the song "Even so come"
Like a bride waiting for you
We'll be a church ready you
..Come Lord Jesus Come
Thank you
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