Instigator / Pro
1500
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Topic
#5832
Roman Catholic Doctrine on Mary
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the contender.
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1420
rating
398
debates
44.1%
won
Description
The goal of this debate is the pursuit of truth. We accept Jesus is Lord of the Christian Church(es). Certain doctrines defocus whom we worship and whom we follow for spiritual growth.
Roman Catholic Doctrine on Mary:
Mary is the Mother of God.
Marian apparitions (supernatural appearances by Mary)
Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.
Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin.
Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven.
Mary has a role within the church and in the life of all Christians.
The veneration of Mary and prayer to Mary
Rules:
1. Both parties accept the Bible as divinely inspired and authoritative.
2. For consistency, I suggest NRSV Bible will be used as the reference when citing scripture.
3. In the final round, only counterarguments addressing previous points will be allowed; no new arguments may be introduced
Round 1
All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord are His sheep. John 10:16 Jesus gave the analogy of his sheep in different folds, so by extension we will find followers of Jesus in one of His different folds, be it the catholic fold, protestant fold or other "Jesus" fold.
For the majority one's faith is determined by the immediate family and/or geography. People are busy with life, earning and supporting family so that time is limited to analyze doctrine, and so typically we accept and trust our pastor, rabi or priest to be our guides.
So, when We are critiquing a doctrine, we are not critiquing people who believe a doctrine, but we are critiquing leadership that potentially allows millions to be led astray or on a tangent with a false doctrine. Isn't that what the devil wants - anything so we do not get close to the truth.
Catholic Doctrine on Mary:
Mary Mother or God/Queen of Heaven
The Bible refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus (John 2:1 John 2:3 Acts 1:14) never as the mother of God.
Granted that Jesus is God, but calling Mary the mother of God is presumptions as God has no mother. The Creator was not created. It mocks God and does Mary a disservice. There is an order in Heaven, even Jesus acknowledges "the Father is Greater than I " (John 14:28). Who is man to set the order of heaven!!
The title queen of heaven when it appears in the Bible is in the context of serving other idols/gods (Jeremiah 44). The title queen of heaven is a reference paganism that exalts a goddess when we should be focusing of the true King of heaven, Yahweh,
Marian apparitions (supernatural appearances by Mary)
First, I would like to point out that where the supernatural interacts to teaching humans this is always bad. Fallen angles in Genesis (6:4), Gabriel with Mohamed creating Islam, the angel Moroni interacting with Joseph Smith to create Mormonism
Paul warns: Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14)
So, looking at some of the approved apparition of Mary
- 1531, Guadalupe, Mexico - Mary proclaimed herself "the mother of the true God who gives life"
- 1830, Paris, France - Mary commissioned the "Miraculous Medal" made in order to spread devotion to Our Lady.
- 1846, La Salette, France - Her appearance in sorrow and tears called for conversion and penance for sins.
- 1858, Lourdes, France - Under the title "the Immaculate Conception," she called for penance and prayer for the conversion of sinners.
- 1871, Pontmain, France - Mary's message "But pray my children. God will hear you in a short time. My Son allows Himself to be moved by compassion."
- 1879, Knock, County Mayo, Ireland - During a pouring rain, the figures of Mary, Joseph, John the Apostle and a lamb on a plain altar appeared over the gable of the village chapel, enveloped in a bright light. None of them spoke. At least fifteen people (ages 5-75) saw the apparition.
- 1917, Fatima, Portugal - Mary, who identified herself as "Our Lady of the Rosary." urged prayer of the rosary, penance for the conversion of sinners and consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart.
- 1932-33, Beauraing, Belgium - Mary is believed to have come thirty-three times. Identifying herself as "the Immaculate Virgin" and "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven," she called for prayer for the conversion of sinners.
- 1933, Banneux, Belgium - Mary Called herself the "Virgin of the Poor," promised to intercede for the poor, the sick and the suffering.
Hence what we see being taught by the apparitions are:
- Miraculous Medal to create devotion to Mary
- "The Immaculate Conception"
- call for penance
- "The Immaculate Virgin"
- "Mother of God, Queen of Heaven,"
Mary's last words in the Bible are "Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you" John 2:5 Mary Points to Jesus, Jesus points to God - We would do well to follow her advice and not follow her. These Apparitions that in part promote self are out of character with the Mary presented in the Bible
Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.
We are not disputing a virgin birth we are disputing Perpetual Virginity
Mathew 1
24: When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife,
25: but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.
The plain reading is Joseph knew Mary.
Mathew 13
54: He came to his hometown and began to teach the people in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these deeds of power?
55: Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56: And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"
Mark 3
31: Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him.
32: A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you."
33: And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?"
34: And looking at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
Mark 6
1: He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.
2: On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, "Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
The context is plainly familial, and the locals knew this family
What is the hang up about Mary having a family after Jesus
Immaculate Conception: Mary was conceived without original sin.
What is being believed here is
Mary was born without sin
Mary never sinned
Mary is the only person who did not need a redeemer (Jesus)
This just does not fit the human condition...
There is no evidence of these statement in the Bible
God can handle sin and sinners - He is on a mission
Assumption: Mary was taken body and soul into heaven.
Pope Pius XII defined The Assumption of Mary it on November 1950
The Bible has 2 examples to People going to heaven without dying
Elijah (2 Kings 2:10) and Enoch (Gen 5:24)
Whether Mary did or did not going to heaven without dying is speculative, and to create a dogma over an unwitnessed and undocumented event lack mental rigor, and only add to the god like image mystical and somewhat superstitious view of Mary
The veneration of Mary and prayer to Mary
Search the catholic web sites e.g.
and you fine many prayers to Mary. Catholics would say we are asking for her to intercede but clearly many prayer are also asking her to help
1 Tim 2:5
5: For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,
Mathew 4:10
10: Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! for it is written, 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only him.'"
Matt 17
25: "Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me.
26: I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
We can only know God by what Jesus declares to us
Jesus Points to God
Another example is where Adonijah, the fourth son of King David asked Solomon's mother to ask King Solomon to marry Abishag. He broke Royal Protocol by asking Solomon's mom and not going directly to the King. Solomon denied the request and ordered him to be executed. (1 Kings 2:13...)
Obviously, this example is a stretch, but the point is lets reach out to God directly
Mary has a role within the church and in the life of all Christians.
Mary is blessed. It is however a distraction without any support from scripture to have Mary statues and prayers. The Rosary has text added to it that is not in Bible. Again, we are on dangerous ground adapting the Bible to our dogmas.
Finally, I observe belief and logic do not necessarily go hand in hand
the spiritual side of the human condition is stronger than the rational side, but I conclude that yes Mary is blessed but let's focus on our Creator God and his high Priest and King Jesus.
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Round 2
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Round 3
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