Instigator / Pro
0
1499
rating
52
debates
35.58%
won
Topic
#5727

Given a Competent School, for an Average Student, a standard of 90% or higher on tests is Reasonable

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Winner
0
1

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Vellichor
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
4,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Winner selection
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
1
1500
rating
2
debates
100.0%
won
Description

For a guy like me who scores normally B's and even C's, I'm playing some fun Devil's Advocates. This is the "Tiger mom" approach where you accept nothing less than the best.

Burden of Proof is Shared

(For any test NOT scored out of 100, I just mean you have to get 90% of questions right, or better than 90%.)

Con argues: the Standard to expect a 90/100 and higher is Unreasonable

Whose Standards? A standard set by yourself, or perhaps by parents. It doesn't mean you fail the class with anything less than 90, it is more of an expectation, kind of like a "you SHOULD score this high". I will mainly be arguing that scoring anything lower, should feel unacceptable, to try to encourage the student to work harder.

A competent school means the teacher actually thoroughly teaches everything, all the answers in tests should be able to be found in textbooks, in lectures, or in the online class material, if any is given. The "average" student is just most students, students who don't have disabilities or mental issues preventing standard learning.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Let me begin with how the world's most important jobs demand perfection - imagine if a Doctor who did open heart surgery only had 85 out of 100 patients successfully survive and kill 15 people by accident. Whether because they failed to study, or because they made a mistake. Now this clearly seems horrible, in the NHS alone we have the 600 million patients treated, suppose we say an 80% "B" score is fine, that would mean 120 million patients unsuccessfully treated. Even a 10% difference would mean 60 million people affected. As you can see here, the impact with just a B or an A would be absolutely massive in the medical industry, therefore the 90% seems reasonable for a stringent job like the doctor. 

Even if we go down to the more common blue collar jobs, there are Retail salespersons, home health, general manager, fast food worker, and Cashiers. Think about what could happen if the Cashier or the fast food worker messed up their job. As you can see, the highest earning retailers earn up to 600 billion for Walmart, resulting in a massive 60 billion dollar shift if my standards change by a mere 10%, or even a 1% shift could mean a 6 billion dollar increase or decrease. The massive amount of money to be gained or lost means, even in a simple task like scanning products and answering questions correctly, should be done to near perfection, don't even mention 90%, maybe they have to get it to 99% to be acceptable. 

Or perhaps the most important test in the world, the Driving test. Cars are perhaps the most common quick method of transportation, I am sure almost nobody would debate that, especially cross cities or even cross country. With about 1.4 Billion drivers in the world, it is clear that the standards must be high, since even if only 10% were bad drivers, that would still be 0.14 billion people who could cause accidents or injuries. In the statistics, it says Japan and Germany, which both have strict requirements on acquiring a license, both have a road user death rate of 4.1 per 100,000 people, whereas South Korea has a staggering death rate of 9.8 per 100,000. Now this might be different from the topic of having more than 90% of the score, however, I would argue that the competent school should also have the competent test that readies you for all the scenarios. An "Average" ready driver who has thoroughly studied the test should be able to not only get 90% on the South Korean test, but also a 90% or higher on the Japanese driving test. If we go with S. Korea's standards, we can clearly see that out of 1.4 billion driver we would have 140000 deaths, while we cut that in half with the Japanese standards. As you can see, setting higher standards for yourself or for the test can clearly make a massive difference in the world.

When it comes to a competent school, if all the answers are given in lecture or in the textbook, there seems to be no reason to score low. It is all up to the person's efforts in order to memorize or understand the information. If every question can be answered simply by looking back on a certain page, it seems reasonable to me that this simple task should be done well. Setting a higher standard for yourself means you will likely score higher and become a better person. If I am happy with just an 80, I might score even lower next time since my new standard is just a B. Wouldn't this result in a slippery slope? Everyone wants to be the best person they can be - if they shoot for 100, they might get a 90. If I shoot for 90, I might get 80. So the standard shouldn't be arbitrarily low - the high score of 100 might be near impossible, but the 10% margin seems to be a reasonable loss to accept. 

Even in the most entry job levels, Indeed admits that for a professional profile, a GPA at or above 3.5 would be the best. That's at the AB threshold - right near the 90 range. As you can see, the standards of the world clearly show that the 90% or higher standard is reasonable for the "average person".
Con
#2
Preamble

Salutations, advocatus diaboli! Salutations, readers. I am Vellichor, inane internet cryptid and hopeful educator.

I will prove my case in two parts:

1. Tigers Cubs Are Loved
2. Average: A Moving Target?

Burden of Proof

As stated, the BoP is shared. CON agrees to this condition.

To succeed, PRO must show that it is reasonable to expect an average student in a competent school to achieve a standard of ninety percent or higher.

Definitions

Provided by PRO.

Rebuttal

P1

...the world's most important jobs demand perfection.
This is about the average student. Doctors are not average students, and being a student isn't one of "the world's most important jobs".

Doctors do have high standards - but this is irrelevant.

P2

...the fast food worker messed up ...a massive $60 billion shift if my standards change...
Walmart's financial success and its standards as a company are irrelevant.

Again, this is about the average student - not doctors, not fast food workers, not Walmart...

P3

...out of 1.4 billion driver we would have 140000 deaths...
Exam scores in schools are not related to the driving test, nor the death rate from vehicle accidents.

This is absurd. 90% average on the driving test doesn't mean that 90% live and 10% die.

This debate is about the average student. Not doctors, not fast food workers, not Walmart, not the driving test, and not the death toll on South Korean roads.

P4 & P5

...there seems to be no reason to score low... If every question can be answered simply by looking back on a certain page...
This is an obscene oversimplification of a complex topic.

  • PRO dismissively describes one of the most vital aspects of our society as "simple".
  • >90% requires a student to do more than "memorize and understand the info." It requires critical analysis, synthesis and skill. (See here for full list.)
  • "...by simply looking back on a certain page..." Exams aren't open book. Answers can't be verbatim taken from a textbook.
  • "...and become a better person." An awful, toxic concept. Better exam scores do not change your worth as a human being.
  • "...result in a slippery slope?" Classic slippery slope fallacy.
  • "....standard shouldn't be arbitrarily low..." 90% is an arbitrarily high standard. Why not 89% or 91.5%? 90% is arbitrary too.
"GPA >3.5 would be the best... As you can see, the standards of the world clearly show that the 90% or higher standard is reasonable for the "average person".
The best and average are two very different things. The "best" is not the standard for the average person. This is a contradiction of your argument.

PRO's argument can be summarized as:

'90% in this context is reasonable, so a standard of 90% is reasonable for student's exams too.'
This is a non-sequitur. There's no logical connection between high test scores and open heart surgery, Walmart, or motor vehicle accidents.

Tiger Cubs Are Loved

Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all. - Aristotle
1. High standards and the instillation of "feeling unacceptable" in students is both psychologically detrimental and ineffective - and therefore unreasonable.

  • There are several studies that show how damaging and ineffective the "Tiger Mom" approach to parenting is. (1, 2, 3.)
  • When studies show that this approach is ineffective, it is unreasonable to utilize it - especially when it causes undue harm.
  • Research shows a supportive approach is more effective. (4, 5.)
When an evidence-based approach advocates against the setting of high standards and studies demonstrate that a more supportive, nurturing environment is produces happier students and better results, it is unreasonable to place a stressful and unrealistic expectation of >90% upon an average student. 

Remarks
 
I hope this round finds you well! Apologies for omitting my source list - character limit - please see the hyperlinks. Warm wishes from the other side of the planet.
Round 2
Pro
#3
good job, you pointed out all the weakness of the argument. I concede to you.
Con
#4
Rebuttal

N/A.

Remarks

I have skipped the Average: A Moving Target argument for the sake of brevity. The aforementioned source list from my previous round can be found below.

Concession noted - thank you for your time, PRO. 

Please vote CON.

________________________________________________________________________________

Sources

1. Professor Cecilia Cheung, University of California, "Controlling and Autonomy-Supportive Parenting in the United States and China: Beyond Children's Reports."
2. Washington Post, "How Tiger Moms and hovering parents can damage a child’s ability to cope with life’s challenges."
3. Associate Professor Su Yeong Kim et al, University of Texas, "Tiger Parenting, Asian-Heritage Families, and Child/Adolescent Well-Being."
4. Rosa Sze Man Wong et al, "Parental Involvement in Primary School Education: its Relationship with Children’s Academic Performance..."
5. John Mark Froiland & Frank C. Worrell, "Parental autonomy support, community feeling and student expectations as contributors to later achievement..."
6. School of Thought - Your Logical Fallacy Is, Slippery Slope Fallacy Overview
8. "Aristotle" Quote, Head & Heart - not actually Aristotle, apparently. My apologies.
Round 3
Pro
#5
kwalala!
Con
#6
Rebuttal

Extend.


1. When evidence demonstrates that supportive > strict, it is unreasonable to place an unrealistic expectation of >90% upon an average student.
2. Thank you for your concession, PRO. Most gracious.

Closing Remarks

An error on my part - there's an unnecessary "is" in my R1. One brownie point to the person that can find it.

Thank you for your time, Gugigor, readers.

Please vote CON.

________________________________________________________________________________

Sources

N/A.