Instigator / Con
0
1500
rating
8
debates
62.5%
won
Topic
#5674
The trinity is false and God is only one
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
0
1507
rating
5
debates
60.0%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Hello, you werent the one I was looking for, but thank you for joining this debate.
I shouldve added this in the description, but no one looks at the longer one anyway.
This debate is going to be done assuming that God is real. If you were to argue the trinity is false because God isn't real, then we would argue on whether God is real is not, rather than the validity of the trinity necessarily.
Im not exactly sure why you have this position, if you still believe in a God but not a trinity.
In that case. I would rather you explain your position, because it's quite obvious what mine is, as well as where Im coming from, and im not exactly sure how to defend my position if im not 100% sure what yours is. Are you debating as an atheist, muslim, Mormon, religiously Jewish, or troll?
That way, I know which arguments and sources, if any, should be used.
I wouldnt want to throw bible verses at you if you're arguing as an atheist, for example.
I think it would be annoying for both of us if that were to happen.
Well my respected opponent i listen what u say but i observe what u do .
As u like to get prove from me that GOD is not real (God is reall that's your pov ), then i can prove it.
- i make arguments not according to religions but on facts , history , pilosophy and that like stuff.
- sometime i consider my personal observations , experiences to display my prove to u
well i hope u understand my positions as atheist ( but in reality i'm not atheist ....) or u asume me as a free person with free,independent prespective
so now lets do what u like to do according to your positions
Round 2
Well, if I understood what you said correctly, you arent really atheist but arguing from the point of view of one?
This debate is a place for either of us to argue whether God is one thing or three things that are one somehow. I shouldve made it clear. That's why I added the "God is only one," which would be pro's position. If you are to argue God isnt real anyway, then we wouldnt be arguing avout the main topic. Instead, you would be arguing that the trinity is false, and God would be nothing, not one.
If you arent really atheist, then argue from your TRUE point of view. What do you REALLY think? I was asking what religion you were because I need to know where you're coming from. You dont have to take another position, and you dont have to try to prove God isnt real if you believe he's real.
Do what you really want.
If you still want to argue as an atheist, go ahead. I will admit that christians are sustained by faith and not sight. This is a religious matter after all.
So honestly, you can make your argument first. Because there are only 5 arguments I can make, I tend to go off on different branches. I would rather you argue first so I have an idea on how to answer your question without wasting space.
Use whatever you want to argue for God not being a trinity.
Well as u give me oppertunity to do so , now i can make it:
how u get the concept/idea of word God ?
Round 3
Well, I believe in God because of a "miraculous" event that happened to me.
Its a long story and I'd rather not dump all of my woes on this website, but basically I wasnt doing well in life, then I heard the gospel from people online (somewhat forcibly), and well, I started getting emotional, repented, and gave my life to Christ.
I never had parents that told me to believe in God or made me go to church. I only believed in God because of that event before I had a few recent blessings as well (which also made me believe). I had gone to church before the event, but it didnt convince me.
So thats how I came to believe in a god, i guess.
I think a lot of Christians had a similar story. They ignored God or didnt know who He was, they encountered Jesus somehow, and thats how they became christian. You kinda have to see it, its weird when I try to explain.
Im not sure exactly what answer you want from me, but this is what I can give you.
yeap i feel what u say .
my dude, u know that i had same experience , same as u have i feel it , i think
, that i feel is ultimate reality and that's only turth what i feel. o yeah its cool experience .
I spend alot of time to think , research and get more what i feel , i go indepth of religion and in about God.
haha
and then i know oh no , thats only my illustions , imaginations haha
i tell u that the God , the God that is defined by religion , by u or by others holy religious personalities is just imaginations , illusitons but
whatever that's cool but its not unltimate turth , if u oberserve other religions u find that everyone has a concept of God , but no one defined u exactly that is acceptable for your critical mind everyone tell u what they feel , and u find just theories , keep in mind that theores r theories not law
some say God is one , three , many all r wronge , no one has prove no one has law but only theories
if u choose or like any theory , it only means u have a theory not law ,
what u think about it
Round 4
Ok, first thing I gotta type, fix your grammar. I don’t know if maybe english isn’t your first language, but I’m having a hard time comprehending what you typed.
If I understood correctly, you’re basically arguing that God is just in the imagination and that He isn’t really a truth, just a theory. What is truth anyway? If everything is a theory, there can’t be a truth.
And if you believe I trust in the existence of a god because of my imagination, you’ll have to prove it.
I’m surprised you study and research something that you said is only in peoples’ imaginations. You have also allegedly experienced something like I did (which wasn’t even that miraculous compared to what other people go through), but dismissed it as only your imagination.
How did you really know it was in your imagination? What even was this miraculous event? Did you see an angel, demon, heard something, what is it? How do you know that is a hallucination and not real? Did you test it?
Anyway, you are saying it’s all theories not facts. Can you prove the theory of the trinity WRONG then, like with evidence and not because “it’s not likely?”
Like, you have to prove it’s wrong if you think it’s speculation. That’s the debate topic. If you don’t stay on topic, I won’t either. It would be fruitless if I were to try if my efforts aren’t reciprocated.
If christianity is true, the trinity would be true because that’s one of the key points of the true doctrine according to the bible as well as God.
But I guess you think it’s all in our heads? Again, prove it is.
And prove that there even is a truth that can prove these theories wrong. Otherwise, it’s all speculation and there isn’t anything either right or wrong.
Alright , i fix grammer problems by using AI , i hope u not face problems anymore
i give u awnsers one by one:
Q#no. 1
What is truth anyway?
According to my observations , actually the concept of God is introduced in earliers times to make people feared of someone that is suprior , powerful , invisible and different than others , and those who introduce that idea , are very wise and clever in other words they are intellgent who know how to maniuplate people , control people in civilized and innovative way , and that is thing due to which human societies becomes united under leadership and do every thing , what leader (wise) among them say to them. Honestly i appriciate those wise peoples (pilosphers, scitentists , critical thinkers , prophets or political leaders) due to them humans starts development in their lifes , and survive togther in better ways , fight with probelms solve the issue of food , do hunting of animals ....... collaborate each other , help each other on the order of wise people who introduce GOD to them . That is the thing by which collaboration take place among humans . Thats fact.
Q#no.2
if I believe that u trust in the existence of a god because of your imagination, then I ’ll have to prove it?
Imagination plays a critical role in early development, increasing children's cognitive, creative, and social skills. Imaginative children can explore their thoughts and feelings more deeply and learn how to solve problems creatively.
You find that mostly children born in jews familes are jews think same like their parents , sociaty ...... because they imagine things that they hear.
and that's my stongly believe that u never see or feel such thing in dreams that u never hear or imagine.
Do u know imagination influences everything we do, think about and create.
U automatically feel more such things that u imagine more. As like u i imagine those things , that i hear , read from religious books , personalities ....
Q#no.3
miraculous event
U use that term , i like to explain it , miraculaous events r nothing but just unexpected events .
for example :
I beg u when u first time see that chick comes from egg , even egg itself is immoveable , but the chick is moveable . chick move , walk and make sounds , u amazed becouse its unexpected for u , first time its miraculous for u but after sometimes its normal for u .
Q#no.4
Did I see an angel, demon, heard something, what is it?
haha , its interseting but i just imagine when i read Holy book and other books and stories (theories ) from religious teacher. When in silence or darkness ( ourside at night or alone ) i imagine or remind that things , i feel that there's something in shadow and i get fear , haha
but when sometime i get counrage in myself and see focuse to that shadows i see , these r nothing only normal shadows of trees wall or something like that.....
Advise : haha , always makes good thoughts , imaginations that makes u stronge , better , fealess...
Q#no.5
Can I prove the theory of the trinity WRONG then, like with evidence and not because “it’s not likely?”
well my dear , honestly i get a little bit overview of almost all prominant religions , budhism christanity , judism , islam , hindism..... and i found basicly , all ultimately consider that the most suprior , powerful is only and only one. I know Islam much than others and basically , judism , chirstanity and isalm is strongly connected with each other . Islam is updated version of the teachings of Juess ( christanity ) . and as Islam religion is lastest than others . U find that Islam defined GOD much clearly than others, i don't say that others not define GOD clearly , others do absolutly do , but as if u studied the history u understand that , what the bad character of christan scolars ( i not consider them scolars ) , whose do such bad things , establish monoply , expolite peoples , Greed of power ,against innocent scitienists and kill them , punish them due to their inventions ...... i don't think Jesus ever say that he is GOD , he was a wise and good man who work for mankind not for fame or wealth . i love Jesus as a philospher , social scientists like others good and wise peoples.
According to Islam :
there's no GOD but one , GOD is free from every need from everything , body (mass) , color , gender , food , sleep... no one is like GOD , there's no pic of GOD , GOD has no child (never do reproduction) , GOD is alone , GOD is always in past , in present and in future , GOD never born and never die .
Do think Jesus that is talk to GOD and born without father from mother marry or birth of Jesus is a miracle ?
for me he never talk to GOD , he think himself , when he do meditation , thinking in aloneliness , think that how to resolve the problems of mankind. Saint Joseph was a 1st-century Jewish man of Nazareth who, according to the canonical Gospels, was married to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and was the legal father of Jesus. I strongly believe that Jesus is not God and Saint Joseph and Marry was the parents of Jesus. The trinity is false and God is only one.
Extra facts:
Christians and Muslims both believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. both the Bible and the Quran teach that Jesus is not God.
Round 5
Grammar is much better.
My answer to YOUR answer to question 1:
You’re debating from an atheist point of view, as you initially outlined, but later in your response I see that you are now debating from a Muslim point of view. I suppose this is your true point of view. Perhaps that’s why throughout your whole response you didn’t give me objective proof that would PROVE the trinity wrong.
But first, let’s pretend you were still arguing from an atheist position for a little bit.
According to your answer to question 1, you are saying based on your observations that a big and powerful god is invented so that humans are organized and under control. You should’ve added actual historical evidence to prove that, but based on what I have learned in historical studies, religion does do that. Whether or not that was the intention of religion, you still haven’t proven.
Also, that’s not true for all religions. Buddhism isn’t actually about one god at all. It’s based on getting help from bodhisattvas that help you get into nirvana. Basically, get help from a spiritual guru that will help you stop reincarnating. And Buddha happens to be the most important bodhisattvas. And you forgot the oldest “religion” of all, paganism. In some civilizations, these gods aren’t necessarily supposed to be feared, but bargained with. Like, “oh, I’ll worship you and you give me stuff in return.”
I think your argument would apply more to the abrahamic religions.
But let me say as a christian that those that believe in a god because they are afraid he will hate them if they dont are false christians. They don’t truly know God if they are believing in Him because their parents said so. More on that later.
Your observations alone aren’t considered truth from a scientific point of view. Truth is objective, observations without any more information aren’t truth. You noticed that religion is doing something, but unless you have gathered data and interviewed people, you don’t have any evidence to back up your claim that the purpose of religion is for that function, so it’s not an objective truth. It’s a hypothesis. You need to prove that hypothesis.
What if people genuinely believed in that religion? Like, they really believe in Aphrodite and Athena and Zeus, and aren’t trying to manipulate people? Can you prove that religion was CREATED to do that? Observations won’t cut it here.People’s observations, such as Aristole’s, have led him to believe that the Sun revolves around Earth. You need documents, artifacts, data, something that you can SEE.
My answer to your answer to question 2:
Yeah, basically. Because you intended to argue from an atheist point of view. You typed earlier that it’s all in our imaginations. You didn't prove that it was all in my imagination. You’re proving that imagination exists. I know it does. But you need to prove that my belief is rooted in imagination. Like, you need to enter into my brain and see whether or not something’s wrong with it. Also, I didn’t believe in God before the event, so nothing should have influenced what I saw when that happened. And by the way, I’ve had strange moments before that I knew wasn’t because of a demon or angel.
My answer to your answer to question 4:
You don’t have to be religious to feel that something is looking at you in the dark. That’s why there are self-proclaimed atheists that believe in ghosts. I didn’t explain to you what actually happened to me, because what I experienced wasn’t a feeling. It was an event, like it happened to me, not FELT by me. Let me retell it again:
It was quarantine in 2020, I was 11, and I spent a lot of time on TikTok. I just got it for the first time. I can’t say everything, but I was in a really bad place. I felt terrible and, well, let’s just say it was getting really bad, and therapy wasn’t helping.
Then one day, I was scrolling on Tiktok as usual. All of a sudden I saw christian tiktoks only. I uesd to go on tiktok for entertainment, but all tiktok showed me were christians spreading the gospel, talking about jesus, and discussing religious matters.
I don’t know if you use tiktok, but if you scroll past them very quickly, the algorithm would stop showing you those videos because that meant you didn’t like them. I did that for a few times. I gave it, and tried the next day. I still saw those tiktoks that wouldn’t go away. I couldn’t see any tiktok talking about anything else, just Jesus. I was basically “forced” to listen to the gospel (lol)
So I started looking at them. I think tiktok was like this for a few days. Maybe two or three days. I didn’t immediately convert on the first day lol.
Eventually this one tiktoker was spreading the gospel, and when I heard it, I suddenly got emotional. I was numb at the time, so I couldn’t really feel anything, but when I heard the gospel I started crying and repented and gave my life to God. I think at the time I wasn’t sure how that happened, I felt but without thinking. There was nothing about the tiktok that was sad, but I was crying. Like, it was telling me I was using God and not loving Him, I was taking advantage of His mercy, I need to repent, this is a toxic relationship. If I saw that when I was 10, or even a few months before, I would scroll past it, and maybe laugh a little. So it hit me in a weird way that I wouldn’t have felt normally.
And that’s how things started from there. My Tiktok app went back to normal soon after I converted, and I saw normal videos again.
Explain it however you want, but I think what happened to me had more basis in reality than you feeling that something is in the dark or that something is watching you, because that happens to me everytime I’m in the backyard when it’s night. It also happened to me when I practiced my piano before the age of 10, before I believed in God. I actually could care less about God when I was at that age. I was atheist, and I still felt like something was watching me when I played piano.
Literally almost everybody gets that feeling.
My answer to your answer to question 5:
I have said earlier that those who believed in God because their parents tell them to aren’t christian. That is true, they are false christians.
So about the “scholars” you mentioned that are so evil, that’s because they’re not christian.
Christianity teaches that works PROVE that somebody is christian. And John the disciple wrote in one of his letters (which is now a book in the bible) that if somebody doesn’t love, they’re not christian. And if they don’t have the holy spirit, they’re not christian.
What does it mean to have the holy spirit? It means you are producing fruit of the holy spirit.
This means they need to be kind, patient, generous, gracious, joyful, and more. These traits are considered “fruits.”
A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
If they are greedy or evil or exploit people, they don’t have the holy spirit nor love people, so they’re not christian. There’s no proof they are.
At conversion, a christian would receive the holy spirit, and the holy spirit (who is considered God as a part of the trinity) would change the person over time, so that they are kind, patient, etc. and become a new person. If someone isn’t changing each day and claims to be christian, they’re lying.
And your answer to question number 5 is also where you are arguing from a Muslim point of view.
You said that almost all religions believe in one god.
That’s not true. Buddhism, hinduism, paganism, and more don’t believe in a single God. And I was born Buddhist. My parents aren’t christian, so they didn’t tell me to be one. And I would also know buddhism, because my mom is a devout buddhist, who is friends with a buddhist nun who helped explain buddhism more to me. I also did not imagine buddha or anything like that, even though you argued that if you grew up with something, you’ll imagine things to affirm your belief. I also used to believe in zodiac signs and tarot readings. Not every horoscope came true, and not every reading was true. I didn’t imagine anything that was different than reality, even though I believed in those things.
Even if they all said there’s one god, Christianity is the only way, so even if all the other religions say one thing, they’re wrong.
So if multiple religions, meaning multiple people, say one thing, they’re correct, right? There are lots of atheists that say no god is real, including Allah. Are they right?
Jesus also said He was God. Here are the verses:
“I and my Father are one.” John 10:30 (Isn’t God one, not two?)
“This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
John 5:18
Why did they come after Him for saying something that He never said? It happened a few times too.
Can you name me anything else that is equal to Allah except himself? If somebody is claiming to be equal to God, don't’ they have to a god, OR God?
“The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
John 10:33
“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
Matthew 28:18
If Jesus is saying that, He’s basically saying He is God because only God has that power. Unless if you can name me something else that does.
“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
Mark 10:18
It seems like Jesus is saying He isn’t God.
If you read it, you notice that His question isn’t denying what the young man said to Him (that He is a good person). He’s asking why he said that in the light of another obvious fact, that God is good. Jesus isn’t denying Himself to not be good. He didn’t say “Oh im NOT good, only God is good.” He’s just saying no mere human is good compared to God. So therefore if no one else is good but God, yet Jesus isn’t denying that He’s good, then He’s saying He’s God.
To put it this way, Jesus is saying, “You’re calling me good but no one except God is good, so are you calling me God?”
And He didn’t say no to that or deny it. So yes. John the Baptist, who wasn’t God, denied that he was the Messiah. If Jesus wasn’t God, and is only a good teacher as you have asserted, then he should’ve denied that directly, rather than deny it in a complex way.
But that’s not what Jesus did.
He affirmed it, but in a complex way. If Jesus really was a good person, he would’ve outright denied it. After all, if Him being God isn’t true, isn’t Jesus leading His followers to heresy if He didn’t deny He’s God plainly? What kind of good prophet would do that?
Since you are saying according to Islam there is only one God, you’re gonna have to prove Islam is the correct path.
You have typed earlier that Islam explained God in the clearest possible way.
You mean the simplest way.
Of course it’s clearer if there’s one God, as opposed to a God who is three but one. That doesn’t make it “logical,” because no one can see Allah. And believing in something that you can’t see or hear isn’t logical at all. Like, how do you know it’s there if you can’t feel, see, or hear it?
Simpler doesn’t mean better. People used to think Earth goes in a round orbit and the planets all go around the Sun in nicely arranged, circular orbits. We now know that’s not true and it’s more than that, but it’s simpler and more “logical” to believe in planets all going around the sun in a circular orbit, right? The Solar system is so much “clearer” that way.
Also, Jesus did pray to God. In the Garden of Gethsemane, beforq 21e being crucified, He prayed to God, and angels came down to comfort Him. At the crucifixion, He also cried out, “Father, Father, why did you forsake me?”
Both suggest there seems to be some sort of communication happening.
And don’t make assertions on a book that you don’t know about. I can’t make assertions on the Quran, and you can’t claim that the bible says something when you haven’t read it. I have already provided verses from the bible that suggest Jesus said it himself that He is God, because there is no other God to be equal to God.
Also, you still didn’t PROVE that it’s false. You can prove it’s false in Islam. You can’t prove it’s false in Christianity too.
I suppose proving the trinity is wrong in Christianity is what you should’ve done in the beginning, instead of the atheist point of view.
But I have provided verses that prove that Jesus is saying He’s equal to God (basically that He is God), and that’s in Christianity.
Since Jesus said these things, you have to either say He’s lying and disobeying God, or is God Himself.
Jesus also said He’s the Way, the Truth and the Life. (John 14:6)
Do you believe that Jesus is the only way like He is saying here, or Allah? Do you think Jesus is the truth, or Allah? Is Jesus the life, or Allah?
Jesus makes pretty bold claims, and in order for you to accept that Jesus is a prophet, you gotta reconcile these claims with that somehow.
He either lied or told the truth.
But let me look at the verses mentioned in the first source.
It mentions Acts 3:13. It says that God is the God of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, and Jacob.
If God was the God of Jesus, why didn’t they say, “God of Jesus?”
Jesus is technically God the Father’s servant because Jesus isn’t God the Father, He is God the SON. A son serves his father. You can say that a son is his father’s servant (lol).
I have already went over Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17, which are basically documenting the same thing.
I honestly couldn’t understand how the Muslim website you sourced (the first one) could use Matthew 23:1-9 as proof that Jesus wasn’t God..
Verse 9, which is where the Muslim website appears to be getting this from, if taken literally, means that your own father isn’t your father.
That’s obviously not true.
God didn't have a wife who gave birth to us. It ain’t literal.
Christians aren’t literal sons of God. Only Jesus is, and God didn’t have a wife that gave birth to Him. God is only His Father in the sense that Jesus who is God had a human mother. God is Jesus’ literal father about as much as Joseph is. (And that wasn’t Joseph’s baby either. Mary had a baby before marriage. She’s screwed if she had a baby before her marriage. And Joseph wanted to call off the engagement with Mary because he thought she cheated and the baby wasn’t expected, so it definitely wasn’t his.)
And God being the father doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. It just means He isn’t God the FATHER.
He is the God the SON, so of course God the Father, is His father.
If you were to read Colossians 1:16, the verse right after verse 15, which says the Son is the image of the invisible God, it says “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him, and for him.”
Whoa, Jesus, a mere human, had the whole universe and earth created just for Him?!
And IN Jesus all things were created?
Does that sound like something that would happen to a mere human like us? If Jesus really was a mere human doesn’t this sound like blasphemy? He’s literally above all humans if everything, including all other humans, are created for Him.
And what is above all other humans but God?
If you read after “yet for us there is but one God, the Father,” in 1 corinthians 8:6, you would see it is also said in the same verse: “and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”
Is this verse saying Jesus is the only Lord? What about God? Why isn’t HE Lord?
This verse is saying Jesus is Lord because He is God, because only God is Lord. And because of Jesus all things live. Does that sound like any other human? Only through God all things live.
In John 14:28 Jesus said the Father is greater than I. That is true. Remember that God is three.
God isn’t just the Father, He is also the Son and Holy Spirit. God is one, but has three distinct person taking three different roles. Not all roles are created equal.
The Son, which is another role God takes in the form of Jesus, is lesser than the role God the Father. So yes, the Father is greater than the Son. Sons obey their father.
As for Corinthians 11:3, yes, I have already said this, God the SON has a lesser role than God the FATHER. Of course God the father isn’t submitting to God the father.
Another distinct person of God has taken the role of Son, which would obey God the Father.
It’s strange how the muslim website said that these verses are misquoted, because I already found a verse that is being cherry picked, and not comprehended fully. Some of the verses actually suggest that Jesus is more than all other humans. Doesn’t that sound like blasphemy if Jesus was just a human? What human is better than all other humans? What human has the whole earth created with THEM in mind?
Remember that the apostles were TEENAGERS who may not know everything just yet. In fact, in one verse, John said that they didn’t know what Jesus really meant when He said He will go back to the Father until later.
And God did miracles and wonders among humans as peter said in Acts 2:22 right?
Since the muslim website asserted that God is doing miracles through Jesus, is it suggesting God POSSESSED Jesus? God entered into Jesus and then say things like “I and my Father are one?”
So God entered a human and said, “Me and I are me?
As for the website’s assertion that Peter uses the words God and Jesus separately, therefore they must be different beings.
If you understood the trinity, you’ll know why. The Trinity isn’t saying there are three Gods, it’s saying there are three persons that together are one God, with distinct roles and can interact with each other.
So of course God can raise Jesus from the dead and of course Peter didn’t say “God has made this God whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
In fact, this same verse is saying Jesus is Lord, why didn’t Peter say God is Lord? Is Jesus Lord and not God? Is Peter saying Jesus is more than God?
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob didn’t mention a triune God because they didn’t know God was three persons as well as one. People of the old testament also didn’t know that God never wanted divorce and that everybody, Jew or not, can come to God.
And yes, Isaiah predicted Jesus. The Son is a Father’s servant.
Also, Jesus can both be God and be God’s servant. One thing doesn’t necessarily disprove the other. What, does it seem so strange that God can be serving something? Not God the Father, but what if another person of God is taking another position lesser than Father?
This doesn’t mean God is less than HImself, because if there’s something that people don’t realize, serving somebody doesn’t mean you’re less than them.
Jesus Himself said the greatest are the ones that serve.
And just because the apostles didn’t pray to Jesus doesn’t mean He isn’t God.
In fact, you can technically talk to any of the three persons of the Trinity. You can pray to Jesus, God, even Holy Spirit.
In fact, Acts 4:27 is saying “they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,’ they said…”
So they’re calling God Lord? Didn’t they call Jesus Lord earlier? (God has made Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ, acts 2:36)
So there’s a contradiction?
No, Jesus is God. That’s why God is Lord, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one, so you can use the singular term, “God” and say, “God is Lord.”
The reason why they said Jesus is the Christ instead of Jesus is God (as you can see in acts 5:42) is because that’s central to the gospel, which what the verse was saying. When spreading the gospel, you get to the heart of the message, which is that Jesus was chosen by God the Father to save the world, and now humans can be forgiven for their sins, if they let Him.
That doesn’t mean Jesus is God. It’s just that when spreading the gospel, one message is more important to tell unbelievers first. After all, if you don’t believe God is real, how will you believe Jesus is God?
They used human titles for Jesus because Jesus was human at one point. He’s God and human at the same time.
And God can raise Jesus from the dead because in order to die, you need a human body. Jesus didn’t disappear from existence, but His body isn’t working for three days.
And why did this Muslim website affirm the presence of the Holy Spirit? Didn’t they know the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, AND basically God but inside your heart?
And Jesus said He was God, equally Himself with God the Father.
I must clarify that although the position of Son is less than the position of Father, Jesus as God is still of equal worth to God, because they’re one being still.
You wouldn’t say the wife is inferior to her husband just because she submits to her husband, would you?
An employee isn’t an inferior human being to their employer just because they work for him, right?
Christians believe God the FATHER is all knowing. We don’t believe He can do ANYTHING.
After all, that would mean God can sin. He can’t.
So Jesus can have some limitations, even though He’s God. The three persons of God are distinct, so God the Father can keep info from God the Son. Why? Well, God the Father is above the Son, so He just can.
About the Mark 6:5 verse, if you were to read the next verse, as well as other gospel recording the same event, such as Matthew 13:58, you would know that the reason Jesus didn’t do miracles wasn’t because He CANT, but because the people wouldn’t believe. One of the reasons for the miracles wasn’t only to help them, but also to get people to believe in Jesus. Some dude claims he’s God but doesn’t have any powers, would you believe Him?
If you read Mark 8:22-26 and EVERYTHING in it, you would understand that the man could already see. “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”
Since his vision wasn’t clear, Jesus made sure it was really clear.
Some people have vision like the man did when Jesus tried the first time.
And besides, who knows why Jesus had to do it again, He still managed to restore the man’s sight. You can be the best athlete, but that doesn’t mean every shot you made at the basket will go in, right?
Remember also that Jesus was human, so that’s why Luke said He grew in wisdom and knowledge. But even Jesus as a young boy seemed to have an idea of who He is, because when His parents found Him lingering in the temple, He said he must be with His father.
His father and mother were already on their way home to Jerusalem before they came back to find Him, in the temple.
And He said He must be with His father.
This is because He meant God the Father. And Jesus is God the Son. That’s why He said that.
Even so, as a human, Jesus still had to learn to walk, be a carpenter, read, etc. He had a human brain that needed to be developed.
The website claims that Paul believed Jesus isn’t God.
And then uses 1 Timothy 5:21.
Again, Paul using two separate terms doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. It’s for clarity. Although God the Father and Jesus are both God, they’re still different persons of the trinity, and it would be weird to write “I charge you, in the sight of God and God and the elect angels, to keep these instructions.”
1 Timothy 6:13, which is supposed to disprove Jesus being God, actually would SUPPORT Jesus being God.
It says:
In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession.”
So whatever confession Jesus made to Pilate, it was good. What was that confession?
“Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor (Pilate), and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Matthew 27: 11-12
Jesus doesn’t mean the literal king of the Jews. That’s Herod, who is given power over the Jews by the Roman emperor.
He meant that He is God, because God is King over the Jews. The Jews often consider God to be their King and Lord over Jerusalem.
The differentiating between God and Jesus, as I have already explained, also applies to 1 Timothy 6:14-15.
And actually, if you were to read verse 14, Paul is calling Jesus Lord. Isn’t God Lord?
1 Timothy 6:15-16 says God is immortal. That is true.
Jesus “died” because His body is gone. After all, Jesus is both God and human at the same time. The “God” is still there, the “human” isn’t. Of course, God the Father can still bring the body we call Jesus back to life. He can make all the organs work again. As to where this “God” part is, it’s likely in Heaven with God the Father during the three days, waiting for God the Father to raise the body back. Jesus did say He is to return to Heaven when He died.
And Jesus actually clears up the part where He says no one has seen God. Paul did say in 1 Timothy that no one has seen God.
God the Father.
“No one has ever seen God, but the ONE and ONLY SON, who is himself God is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
John 1:18
I think it’s a lot clearer here because I’m using the NIV translation. I was using ESV previously.
Here is ESV:
“No one has ever seen God, the ONLY God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.”
Are there two Gods? Why is there another God at the Father’s side?
“Not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God, he has seen the Father.”
John 6:46
So since Jesus is from God, therefore Jesus has seen the Father.
And why did He manage to see God and not die?
Maybe because the “God” at the Father’s side happens to be Jesus?
And that God can see Himself?
Acts 17:34 isn’t saying God can’t live in temples or on earth. It’s saying that God doesn’t remain in one. He can come down and visit Earth at any time, most likely through the form of Jesus, because no one can see God the Father.
In fact, He did that already (as God the Son of course). Check out Judges 13, when an “angel” accepts God’s offering.
Obviously that is because this “angel” isn’t an actual angel, but God.
The parents of Samson confirmed this when they realized they saw God. They didn’t die because that was God the Son. If it was God the Father we would never read their story.
The muslim website also said Isaiah 45:22-25 also said that everyone has to bow before God.
Again, God is three persons that are one being. Everybody has to bow before God the Father, the Son who will redeem the Christians, and the Holy Spirit.
In fact, let me bring up the very verse the website brought up, which is clearly evidence that Paul DOES believe in Jesus being God. Didn’t the muslim website try to assert that Paul didn’t believe Jesus was God?
And the Isaiah verse doesn’t take away the real meaning of what Paul said, because if Jesus is God, then everyone will bow to Him too, why can’t they?
Here’s Paul said:
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, thought he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Philippians 2:5-8
Paul did say he will kneel the Father. That doesn’t mean he won’t kneel to the Son.
Also, why is that Muslim website trying to use old testament verses to clarify new testament verses? That doesn’t make sense.
Deuteronomy 32:43 doesn’t take away what Hebrews 1:6 said, that the angels should worship the Son.
It’s literally a part of a victory song. Moses was singing that because they defeated an enemy of Israel, and the gods of Israel’s enemies didn’t help them, so that’s why he was saying all of the “gods” should bow down before God, because God is superior to them.
And as for the verse that says God alone is to be worshipped, that’s true. God is three distinct persons that are one God. Notice how it doesn’t say worship God the Father only.
Jesus said God is Lord in Luke 4:8, and yet in other verses you also see Jesus is being referred to as Lord.
Which is it? Jesus being Lord, or God being Lord?
And if only God is Lord, isn’t the bible contradicting?
No, because the bible says Jesus is God, that’s why He’s Lord, that’s why God the Father is Lord. Philippians 2:5-8 is the clearest verse that outlines this.
The website tries to use Proverbs 8:22 as proof that Jesus is saying He’s created. If you were to actually read the whole chapter, that’s “wisdom.”
God used wisdom in His creating of the earth. So the thing being the first of God’s works is wisdom.
All I can say is that the muslim website is doing too much cherry picking, too many assumptions, and too much ignoring for this to be a valid source on the BIBLE of all things.
I shouldn’t even have to type all this out, because of this one glaring contradiction.
Muslims believe the bible is corrupted, particularly the new testament, yes?
Why then, did this muslim website use corrupted new testament verses to support their own beliefs, while ignoring the ones that are against theirs?
If it’s all corrupted, what’s the point of using them? Aren’t they all wrong?
Look, the trinity is wrong in Islam, but don’t try to tell a christian how to do their own religion, and what’s wrong or not in THEIR religion?
After all, should I, a christian, say that all Muslims are rapists and pedophiles?
No! Right?
Because that would be ignorant of their religion, which I’m sure forbids that. Right?
The other website is also wrong in saying that’s not what the Bible taught. Did you read it? Cuz if you did you would know that Jesus asserts, no matter how wordy and indirect He was, that He is God.
Muslims believe in Jesus. Well, do they believe He is the “way, the truth, and the LIFE?” And you are saying Christians believe in Jesus, and yet also linked sources that suggest we got Jesus all wrong, meaning, we’re not believing in Jesus.
If you need more verses, I’m happy to provide more.
O! My honurable galdiator we need to fight that war to determine the better , with the help of our own weapons ,
weapons = rational thoughts
we need to think our own thougths rather than accpeting others thoughts without rationality ,...
Strawbbycake say :Ok, first thing I gotta type, fix your grammar. I don’t know if maybe english isn’t your first language, but I’m having a hard time comprehending what you typed.AnonYmous_Icon repplied :Alright , i fix grammer problems by using AI , i hope u not face problems anymore
the Arguments that i write after this:
Strawbbycake say ;Grammar is much better.AnonYmous_Icon repplied :My lord , i do nothing , i don't use AI to fix grammer , i write same as usual , Haha .
U imagine that i use AI to fix grammer , maybe that's why u feel less challengesYour Imagination makes effect on U .
the miracle happend to u that for some time , tiktok only show u about the content of ghospl , its unexpected , HAHA
maybe its due to some error in tiktok for that time
its not much rational , My lord.
i explain u about lord in soon.
MY observation and theory:Do u know people, parents, friends , religious people all around me say not to go in graveyard at night alone , there r evils , ghost .....in graveyard. I belive that they r true, but i've not rational reason that Y they r true , Y not i observe that what is happened in graveyard at night .Y i get fear from their f**** theories , stories, i need to see, met with those f**** evils , ghost,angles..............LOLtwo or three weeks ago (maybe two yeap two weeks ago ); i go to graveyard , there's some f***** fear (just little but caraziness, cuorisity overcome that fear), i increase my moral as like galdiators, and go to graveyard , the time is nearly 12:30 am silence is everywhere in my villiage , dark is all around , all in home,village , and deads in graves r in sleep, i moves towards the graveyard , the distance of graveyard is 1-2 km from my home. i just start running and ready to fight with f**** evils..., ghost,... , i run for constantly 20 mins , when i near the graveyard i stop and start walk, my breath is very harsh due runing , i keep myself calm and cool. Now i entered in the graveyard , unfortunatly my dog is following me and entered in g**yard after me,i hear little voice i turn back and see , OH LOLits my good dog....i start visiting graves , graves structure seems like dead , horrible seens in movies , there is r two grave of my grand parents (LOL, but both my grand parents r keep silent)Even my grand father is very rich ,famous and voilent manI visit the graves of rich , poor , good, bad , gentle , voilent , religious , alcholic (additiced of drugs ) , white , black , common , famous , mans, womens,child , young , old peoples , All all of them r f**** silent , but bad r not in hell , good r not in heaven all of them r become part of land.NO angel , no ghost , no eveil , nothing nothing nothing .......if i caged my think , in the stroies of others, then i never go to graveyard at night and never become fearlessi see everything the f**** religious, weak , Timid people say is just nothing but illustions, imgintions, stroies.
now i visit graveyard every night nearly 12 to 3 am enjoy the silence, dim - darkness of graveyard but find nothing , if i find any angel ,ghost... , i inform u about it at first place , if it possible. HaHa
I feel that i get what u say but u don't get what i trying to say , its maybe my fault.
So don't worry i explain ... , in other words.
i try to prove everything according to most rational facts, theories , philosphies based on historical pov.
But u try to prove the motion according to religion ( Religion is a set of belives and belives r not rational u never prove your belive logicaly.)
Even all the verses of Holy , that u stated is mostly irrational.
LOLAccoding to Verses of Holy Book that u display as your evidence.if a = b and b=c | A = GOD , B = Holy spirit , C = Jesusthen its means : a = c |Ur trying to make jesus is the son of God by force , HAHAonly by your will not by the will of Jesus , My lord.(Here i use the word My lord , i just use it for respect , it does't means u r My lord, Kindly get it )same like that think maybe happend in Holy verses , MY lord.and u never say that the old or new testament is words of jesus , its maniuplated too.oH no way a=c is , only and only if a=b |and both varibles exsits |
Even i don't think that tinity is true, and if there's God then , according to my philosphy God is only one , that's better and clear theory , i think.
But Honestly I strongly represent my pov to U by your grace and by the Grace of good Jesus , scientists , philosophers......
not by the grace of f**** religious peoples , who exploits public for their own interset ( fake scholars of christanity,Islam , Judisism,....Hinduism ,...) and spread hate and say only those who love and agree with Jesus , Muhammad ,.....,Moses is better than others and deserve heavan.
So don't belive in Verses , religions , stroies , ... just accpet theories, philosophies on rational basis not on basis of miracles .
I know some irrational people belive what they want to belive ,
they don't like the destruction of their illutions by truth.
But we need to be much better , much rational than our previous humans generations
" If u changed birds think , then flying is crime "
Extra things:
Religious people make us foolish to do for after life , follow the juses/God/Allah.... ( even that's their own f**** teachings not the teachings of jesus,......) .
i don't like to waste your precious time to prove that everything that i say is absolutly true.
so i just tell u some more points, these r not needed but answer of some of your answer that u may need to know:
- According to Buddism there's no GOD and according to Hinduism the most suprior is The Brahman(Others Gods/deities belongs to him).
- The religions of Payans ,.... (Ordin , Thor ,....) these r nothing but just stroies and stories for now , observations, theories ,religion, philosophies r different my dear.
- And as u say that u born in buddish family , your parents r buddish , my dear i think u not study the teachings of Buddah by your own will , his teachings r leteraly much practical and rational than christianity.
- Buddah say to his students : Don't accept what i told u as truth, u need to observe and make your own thoughts
- U accept some things from religion and some not , somethings in religion is apply able and some not.
- but for me religion is just a philosophy , i accept what is much rational and reject which is not
- Jesus is fair but not the students and follower of him r fair. I don't believe what the message/news they deliver is fair like jesus .
If u see in previous i don't say all religion belivie in one GOD , but mostly accept that one is much suprior( among other GODs/deites).
Dear readers the debate is not exactly on the motion , on the orders of MY lord (opponent) and on my acceptance , we do something different , so not to be get hurt or angry on it , be patient . its just my theory , but rational .
Well, that was a lot.
Sorry for not analyzing all of the first website you linked for me at the end, its a lot, and repeats the same points anyway.
The second website I dont think would do much better.
Besides, summer for me is almost over.