Instigator / Pro
5
1515
rating
15
debates
86.67%
won
Topic
#5621
Trans people shouldn't be able to transition before turning 18
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
itsnotago
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One day
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1264
rating
363
debates
39.81%
won
Description
I (pro) will argue that trans people shouldn't be able to transition (change their gender) before turning 18 years old while con will argue that they should and that they could potentially transition before finishing puberty.
Burden of proof is shared
Round 1
Source
Argument #1: Medical Risks associated with changing one's gender (transitioning)
In recent years, society has become open to the idea of children transitioning gender before they turn 18 and become legal adults due to the appearance of medical options that are allowing transgender children to start the process of transitioning at younger ages.
These options include two main procedures, namely putting a pause on puberty (stopping it) through puberty blockers and starting hormones.
Pubertal blockers
For those who don't know, the medications, which suppress the body’s production of estrogen or testosterone, essentially pause the changes that would occur during puberty.
Doctors say that it's like giving a child facing gender distress the opportunity to hit a pause button until it knows what's the gender most suitable for him/her.
While it may sound like a good idea, the use of these blockers hasn't been approved by the Food and Drug Administration because they're an unknown territory.
There isn’t enough research into the effects of stalling puberty at the age when children normally go through it and therefore it raises concerns in the medical world.
The Endocrine Society’s guidelines suggest starting puberty blockers for transgender children when they hit a stage of development known as Tanner stage 2 — usually around 10 or 11 years old for a girl and 11 or 12 years old for a boy.
The same guidelines suggest giving cross sex hormones — estrogen for transgender girls and testosterone for transgender boys — at age 16
However, these medications block estrogen and testosterone that are considered indispensable for any child’s neurological development and bone growth, meaning that without them, neurological development and bone growth is hindered.
Infact, doctors say that pubertal suppression can cause a serious decrease in bone density and due to the current amount of research, they can't guarantee that the child will regain the density, therefore increasing the risk of osteoporosis in their future, which is a very serious condition
As far as brain development is concerned, there isn’t enough research on the impact that suppressing puberty has on brain development because the medical world lacks studies that look at the neurocognitive effects of puberty blockers and therefore are not safe for the brain.
Starting hormones
Hormonal change is irreversible while it is simultaneously dangerous for a child and therefore the children that desire to undergo this procedure have a lot more to lose.
Some of the known side effects of hormones include things that might sound familiar: acne and changes in mood. Patients are also warned that they may be at higher risk for heart disease or diabetes later in life.
The risk of blood clots increases for those who start estrogen. And the risk for cancer is an unknown, but it is included in the warnings doctors give their patients.
In addition, taking cross hormones can reduce fertility as they may no longer have viable eggs or sperm at the age when they decide they would like to have children. And there isn’t enough research to find out of it is reversible or not.
Therefore, children have to be aware of a possibility that they might not be able to have biological children.
As the article constantly highlights, many of these children might not be able to comprehend the impact of their decisions in the future due to them being children but i will make sure to stress this point in another round.
A doctor in the article i provided states that “there are so many unanswered questions around the long-term consequences, and whether your health risk profile really becomes that of a male or female”. For example, will the child have the cardiac risk profile of a male or female as it grows older? Will it develop breast cancer because they're administering estrogen?
In conclusion, as doctors administer puberty blockers and hormones, they are entering unknown territory.
There is a variety of risks associated with these procedures that i already mentioned in this round and a whole lot more that we have yet to find out and analyse.
It's not only the doctors that need to be aware of these problems but also the child undergoing the procedures and its family and parents aswell and it's something that requires proper discussing.
1. Child can be whatever it wants to be.
My opponent presented no numbers or statistics, just plenty of unknowns. Because of this, his side cant even weigh arguments as there is no way to weigh unknowns.
Even if we said that there are still no studies of very long term outcome, transition still must be allowed to happen, as that is the only way to get those studies in the first place.
Further, transition medicine constantly improves, but it cannot improve if it is not allowed to happen.
Further, both social and medical transition is much easier if done before puberty, as puberty makes undesirable changes to body which then must be surgically corrected, but if person is on puberty blockers, surgery becomes unnecessary to correct changes.
Further, most of trans suicides, and greatest rate of trans suicides, happen exactly in those families which try to prevent their trans children from transitioning. Greatest rate of trans children suicides happens in religious families who try to stop their child from transitioning.
So by this, we already see that trying to prevent transition carries harm.
Further, every teaching carries a social effect. If there are some religious parents who tell their kids that trans children arent the gender they want to be, children of religious parents will be more likely to bully trans children. So we can see that no parent should be allowed to teach their children to bully trans children, but most of children who bully trans children come from religious families as it is the religious families who mostly teach the non-accceptance of LGBT.
2. People own their bodies.
So children own their bodies too.
If you disagree, you commit a contradiction because then you cant explain who gets to own child's body instead of the child, nor you can explain why do you get to decide about that.
I am the smartest person on Earth. So you either concede that children own their bodies, or you concede that I get to decide because I am smartest. Since there is no logical reason that anyone else would get to decide, this is very much a win for me either way.
3. Some children dont live to 18, so your logic is flawed.
In your system, some people are slaves for their entire life, while in my system, no one is ever a slave. So yes, I am afraid that my system is more fair and better in every imaginable way.
4. Current studies
We see that gender surgery desired by person carries possibilities of benefits that outweigh harm, and that remove harm, remove pain and remove discomfort in greater amount than they cause it.
It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that gender surgery provides benefits to those who want it.
It does so in overwhelming majority of cases. So not 51% or 51 out of 100, but in at least 94% of cases or 94 out of 100.
Gender surgery achieves better success than most medications and than most other surgeries.
Most cancer surgeries only have about 50% success rate, but no one would say that anyone should be denied of cancer surgery just because it has high failure rate.
"Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.
Research suggests that comprehensive psychological counseling before starting treatment, along with family support, can reduce chances for regret and detransitioning."
"My own personal experience is that it is quite uncommon,” Irwig said. “I’ve taken care of over 350 gender-diverse patients and probably fewer than five have told me that they decided to detransition or changed their minds."
Conclusion
I will post more sources in the following rounds, as I cant post anymore due to character limit, but all so far studies say that transitioning and acceptance is beneficial, so it only makes sense that transition is allowed if for nothing, then so we can find out the truth of its very long term benefits, even tho that so far studies already demonstrate better mental health for even 5 years after transitioning. Further, we see examples of many young trans children who are happy and accepted by their families.
Round 2
Further, transition medicine constantly improves, but it cannot improve if it is not allowed to happen
It is happening and the results are the ones i presented. However, these children are not test subjects, they are actually paying for a procedure because they are facing a chronic disease named gender distress.
but if person is on puberty blockers, surgery becomes unnecessary to correct changes.
By creating a variety of different problems that need to be corrected? Infact, the blockers cause problems like hindering neurological development and decreasing bone density that are most of the time irreversible so there's no way we should take that chance
greatest rate of trans suicides, happen exactly in those families which try to prevent their trans children from transitioning
The parents should do a better job at explaining to these children that once they reach 18, they can do all the surgeries they want but until then it is physically dangerous, possibly fatal. The children can transition socially just not physically until they're 18 because only then will it become even relatively safe to do so.
If there are some religious parents who tell their kids that trans children arent the gender they want to be, children of religious parents will be more likely to bully trans children
So you're basically talking about parents who impose a specific gender on their children on the one hand and parents who teach their children to bully the trans kids (highly unlikely). Both parents are in the wrong so i don't know what you're talking about but avoiding bullies is an additional reason to transition at 18 since only when you reach adulthood will your peers respect you.
So children own their bodies too
They HAVE their own bodies but are not responsible for them until they become legal adults. Until that age, parents are legally and ethically responsible for the children since they're more mature and responsible and all the decisions are up to them so that's not accurate
I am the smartest person on Earth
Even if i believed you, there was no reason for you to mention that
while in my system, no one is ever a slave
No one ever talked about children being slaves since they aren't. They simply have parents who are responsible for them. You talked about children dying young before 18 and while no one wants that, you're basically condemning them to death by administering medication that has fatal side effects something that's proven by doctors
Most cancer surgeries only have about 50% success rate, but no one would say that anyone should be denied of cancer surgery just because it has high failure rate
That is a medical condition that will kill unless treated. Not having gender affirmative care until 18 might deprive you of some pleasure but will not kill you. Cancer surgery is a cure to a condition. While you could consider this medication a cure, there are multiple side effects that could kill a healthy body. When treated for cancer, benefits outweigh disadvantages because you will die if you don't do it
Research suggests that comprehensive psychological counseling before starting treatment, along with family support, can reduce chances for regret and detransitioning.
No one talked about regret. The children won't regret changing gender unless they're brainwashed into doing so but they will regret being permanently damaged because they didn't wait 5-10 years to take the medication. If you want to do something that much, 5-10 years will not get in your way as an obstacle. They will be equally as happy when they change gender at 18 since they will be sure of the decision but they won't be sure of it at 10 since they're not mature enough to make a decision for themselves in the first place
Conclusion
My opponent said some gibberish about being the smartest or something about slavery which i just decided to ignore. Yet, he/she can't disprove the fatal effects of the medication. Any ethical parent would not let the child undergo surgery if they were aware of the chance that the child might destroy their brain or be plagued with osteoporosis for the rest of their life, even if that possibility was as small as 5%
I will talk about the role of responsibility and maturity in the next round since con doesn't seem to comprehend that the child wanting surgery might be 10 years old and still believe that santa is real.
1. The best moral system in the world is where greatest number of people fulfill the greatest number of their dreams.
This is the most wanted moral system by tautology.
If people can make choices for children, you cant explain who gets to decide and you cant explain who gets to decide what is beneficial. Even if you could decide about what is beneficial, there is no way for you to even enforce the idea of those benefits on all parents, but parents who think they own children will enforce whatever they think is beneficial, and will in most cases be wrong.
Compare it to my system which gives children freedom and thus guarantees that their dreams are fulfilled.
Due to social contagion, if you teach children that they cant transition, then non-trans children will be more likely to bully trans children. But if you teach children that trans children should be accepted for what they are and what they want to be, then non-trans children are more likely to accept trans children.
We see in many highly religious countries that beating up, oppressing and killing LGBT is much more common there than in countries which teach acceptance.
2. Its their choice, and no one should feel the need to control other people.
Children need freedom and protection, not just protection. Protection without freedom is useless. Any attempt to control children or limit their freedom has horrible consequences, as it teaches them the easy path of taking away freedom to achieve protection, which is the worst mentality one can have.
Trans children should not be prevented from having control over their body. It is their body, so other people cannot claim control of it, as claiming control of that which is not your property is trully a violation.
Children should be given freedom to do whatever they want. Being the gender they want to be makes them happy. You wouldnt want someone to force you to be a woman, so why would you force children to be the gender they dont want to be? Its really their dream which doesnt even affect you unless you think you own children. If you think you own children, then you need to stop thinking that you own children.
When you impose gender upon children who dont want it, all what you are doing is creating hostility and force, and teaching that those are good. Thus, with personal example, you teach that its okay to force people and meddle into their lives.
Free speech means person must own their body
In order to debate, you must not attack me for my speech.
If you attack me for my speech, then there is no debate.
If at any point you prevent my speech, there is no debate.
If there is no debate, then your argument is invalid.
Something which denies debate cannot be tested in debate, thus cannot be true.
Therefore, only that which allows free speech can be true.
Allowing free speech dictates that person owns his life, body, movement, so only that which allows a person to own his body is true.
Any position which abolishes body rights abolishes free speech, thus it abolishes a debate, thus such position cannot be confirmed and proved in debate, thus it cannot be true.
So by this simple axiom, people own their bodies. Child owns its body.
If you claim otherwise, then you deny body rights of a child, thus you deny free speech of a child, thus you deny child from debating, thus you make it impossible to prove true your position in a debate because you banned some of your opponents from making their case and thus made debate impossible and with it, made your position unprovable.
So either your position in this debate cannot be true because you deny other opponents who are children of debate, either children own their bodies and again your position in this debate isnt true.
3. Who gets to decide in your ideology?
If people own others, then thats slavery.
Thus, people cannot own others.
Because people cannot own others, they also cannot deny others of ownership of their own body.
Thus, at no point can anyone dictate if other person gets to own their body or not.
So you cannot dictate if children own their bodies, thus you cannot own children nor make decisions for them.
If you, however, get to dictate if person owns their body or not, then so do I, and then by mere opposite views, a contradiction in your ideology appears.
4. Useless prevention
Trans children will transition anyway sooner or later. But transitioning sooner makes things easier for them.
Conclusion
My opponent's position in this debate is just filled with unknowns, is pointless delay, encourages the bullying of trans children by parents and other children.
I have already presented studies which show the many benefits of trans surgeries, but the greatest benefit of all is enabling people to be what they want to be.
My opponent wants for children to wait until 18, but some children dont live to 18, so my opponent's position denies some trans people of transition completely, for their whole life.
Thus, my position is more desirable, promotes equality and freedom with no unfairness.
Round 3
The best moral system in the world is where greatest number of people fulfill the greatest number of their dreams
I might have a dream of shooting up a highschool, is that the same thing? If anyone could fulfill their dreams, society would simply not function. I'm not an expert but i can tell you for a fact this is not the best moral system
you cant explain who gets to decide and you cant explain who gets to decide what is beneficial
Of course i can, parents are responsible in every way for children until they turn 18 unless they request legal emancipation. Otherwise, some decisions aren't for them to make because if children as young as 5 or 6 years old did whatever they wanted, it would be a total catastrophy. Imagine a society in which a 5 year old says it wants drugs and the adults are supposed to give it to the child without hesitation.
As for the beneficial part, as i explained, parents are the ones to decide because they usually know better what is and isn't beneficial for their child. Although they don't know everything, they get the information from doctors and in this case due to the fatal risks of such medication, they have to right to refuse their child the surgeries at such young ages
if you teach children that they cant transition
They can transition socially just not physically before they turn 18, i don't see the problem in waiting a few years
then non-trans children will be more likely to bully trans children
I don't disagree that parents should at some point have a conversation about this with their children but you must understand; Kids bully other kids, it's in their nature and that's why it would be preferable to turn 18 and then make such important decisions because adulthood means you are respected by others since everyone has grown and matured
Any attempt to control children or limit their freedom has horrible consequences
There doesn't exist a world with complete freedom. Society requires people to live a certain way and conform with some things in order to function properly. Some actions due to their bad consequences are not allowed in this world, for example shooting up a school. Another example is letting children do whatever they want which by the way can be considered parental abuse in extreme cases. Parents are there for a reason and that is to help children become proper, ethical adults and that is impossible without rules. When they reach 18, they reach adulthood, and then they are given all the freedom in the world and they make decisions by themselves which are at the same time impacted by the way they grew up. That's simply how the world works
Being the gender they want to be makes them happy
No one is denying them their gender. They can be any gender socially just not physically until they turn 18
You wouldnt want someone to force you to be a woman
Good point. Let's talk about brainwashing among these young children. Nowadays, you see children want to change their gender from as early as the moment they finish being a toddler. They appear so sure of their identity when they can hardly write down their name. There is no way that the child would have even thought about changing gender without an adult's encouragement. In some cases, parents impose a gender transition on children to the point where yes, they are forced to be a specific gender. While this is also mental abuse, it is also a way to limit their freedom in "your society", so why are we allowing it while children not being allowed to physically change gender until they have grown mature is persecuted?
Any position which abolishes body rights abolishes free speech, thus it abolishes a debate
I hope this is a joke. Parents don't abolish body rights, they are legally and ethically responsible for the body of their child until they turn 18 so while they don't own it, they have all the right in the world to refuse the surgeries (stop saying that children should have all the freedom in the world, we all know you don't believe it). Now, you somehow connected parents refusing their children major, life changing, semi-irreversible surgery until they turn 18, to me taking away free speech. Free speech means you can say whatever you want without being persecuted. Do i look like i'm persecuting either you or any trans child for your opinions? Sure, some are a little inaccurate i have to say but i am in no way persecuting or offending you, im letting you talk without holding any grudge whatsoever.
But transitioning sooner makes things easier for them
Wrong, it makes things harder for them and i'll explain why. They are given major surgeries and medication potentially before hitting puberty in order to achieve a change in gender which is essentially a change in identity. While they can be somewhat sure of their true gender and identity, we can all agree that children become fully mature and grown at 18 according to science which is irrefutable. While the procedures involved themselves are physically dangerous, they are making a way too major decision in a way too young age. And that's all it is
Conclusion
My opponent has done nothing but twist my words and rant. He/she constantly talks about a "system" or "society" in which children have all the freedom in the world, which we all know wouldn't work. In addition, he/she says that i'm denying child's right to transition yet i am stating that a social transition is possible yet a physical one inpreferable. And this is a mere example of the twisting and turning he/she is doing with my words and statements
1. "In the Netherlands, a study of transgender young people found that only 1.9% of young people on puberty blockers did not want to continue with the medical transition."
2. If person doesnt own their own body, then free speech is again in danger because when someone else makes decisions for you about what you are allowed to do, about which actions you are allowed to do, it affects your ability to say what you want, but also affects ability to learn what you want.
Besides, assuming that you can make choices instead of children doesnt stop at mere ban of gender identity, but expands in all other areas due to problem of consistency, thus violating free speech completely.
Free choices and being able to make changes are necessary to build free speech, thus violating those violates free speech.
So there is no way to own someone else's body and make decisions about it without violating free speech and thus violating debate and thus making your position in debate impossible to prove correct since your very position, if realized, violates debate.
3. Adults already vote for bad people. Almost every president is bad and corrupt. So if making bad choices is a basis for taking away choices, you would take away choices from over 90% of the people.
It is not allowed to violate people's bodies even if its beneficial. For example, it is wrong to rape a woman to make her pregnant, even if it is beneficial for society.
There is no level of education which lets you violate other people's bodies. Are you allowed to rape a woman if you are smarter than her?
All major mistakes in history were made by adults, not children.
4. Taking away choices from children means some children will be slaves for their entire life, as not all children reach adulthood. Thus, such system would be most immoral for those children, as they would never even have any freedom.
Sadly for transphobes, any attempt to own other people's bodies causes logical contradiction where some people own multiple bodies while some own none.
Conclusion
My opponent didnt provide any way to weigh arguments, and argues for position which by its very self promotes non-acceptance, which if it becomes widely accepted, causes harm to all trans children in form of bullying by parents and other children.
My position, on the other hand, would teach all to accept trans children, thus bullying would be reduced.
It was already proved that most of bullying is already caused by the very position my opponent holds.
Further, we can easily conclude that the greatest priority and greatest importance for each person is to realize his goals. Only my position allows trans children to realize their goals, thus by priority, my position outweighs that of my opponent and my position benefits trans children the most.
Further, my opponent says that trans children should hide so bullies dont bully them. This is just punishing the victim of bullying while not doing anything to solve actual bullying as bullies would just find other targets. My opponent thinks trans children should bow to bullies, but the actual solution for bullying is to fight against bullying by promoting acceptance everywhere and by punishing bullies.
Further, my opponent takes position which doesnt just oppose medical transitions, but also social transitions.
Finally, my opponent's position opposes medical progress. Medicine constantly makes progress only if it is allowed to be practiced, but my opponent wants to ban practice, thus he wants to make it impossible to make any further progress in medical care for trans youth, and his position makes it impossible to learn about long term benefits of medical care for trans youth.
Thus, my opponent's position is very harmful for medical progress and for dreams and wishes of trans youth.
I cant use all sources available, but if you just google studies about children transitioning, you will find many studies saying transitioning is both beneficial for mental health, reduces suicide rates, and most importantly, overwhelming majority of trans children (over 95%) are happy with their choice.
My opponent thinks that he is helping trans by denying them of early transition, but overwhelming majority of trans people want to and approve of transitioning as children.
My opponent cannot explain how denying people of what they want enables them to have what they want.
The most important thing for people is to have what they want.
I have already provided example video of trans child being very happy with her choice after transitioning. She lives with family which supports her in everything. It would be very different and worse for her if she lived in non-supportive family.
Acceptance is the only logically consistent ideology which makes the greatest number of people feel included, and by denying children of what they are, you are teaching the opposite of acceptance.
