Instigator / Pro
0
1500
rating
1
debates
50.0%
won
Topic
#5601
Bitcoin Banknotes
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One day
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1500
rating
1
debates
50.0%
won
Description
Currently bitcoin is used almost exclusively in its digital format. This requires holders to memorize or store seed phrases on paper and pass this information along to their heirs. It also requires the use of a computer or cell phone and payment of a transaction fee for each transaction.
Many potential users don't have immediate access to the internet or a cell phone. This unnecessarily excludes them from day to day transactions.
I posit that securely printed satoshi denominated banknotes are the best solution to the current lack of use of bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
Round 1
Currently bitcoin is used almost exclusively in its digital format. This requires holders to memorize or store seed phrases on paper and pass this information along to their heirs. It also requires the use of a computer or cell phone and payment of a transaction fee for each transaction.
Many potential users don't have immediate access to the internet or a cell phone. This unnecessarily excludes them from day to day transactions.
I posit that securely printed satoshi denominated banknotes are the best solution to the current lack of use of bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
Well Good Morning Kosanke, I am very glad to be debating you and I hope we have an intelligent discussion. Now firstly what is bitcoin?
According to bitcoin.org, Bitcoin uses peer-to-peer technology to operate with no central authority or banks; managing transactions and the issuing of bitcoins is carried out collectively by the network. Bitcoin is open-source; its design is public, nobody owns or controls Bitcoin and everyone can take part.
Lets look at your arguments
"Many potential users don't have immediate access to the internet or a cell phone. This unnecessarily excludes them from day to day transactions."-Kosanke
In this day and age, technology is rapidly growing with almost if not everyone owning a smartphone or some other electronic devices like laptops and desktops and the internet is very widely available. This isn't the 90's where you had to use a coaxial cable for internet, now we have ethernet and fiber, which are used in many countries in the world. So..how can you say that potential users don't have a cell phone or access to the internet? It seems your statement is a mere fallacy.
"Currently bitcoin is used almost exclusively in its digital format. This requires holders to memorize or store seed phrases on paper and pass this information along to their heirs. It also requires the use of a computer or cell phone and payment of a transaction fee for each transaction."-Kosanke
Well bitcoin is a cryptocurrency, its meant to be digital. Also we don't have to use paper to store seed phrases, we have password managers which can store your seed phrase. We have the password manager built-in with browsers like Chrome which uses your google account to store passwords, making it accessible from all devices connected to your google account.
Now lets look at the nuances of "securely printed satoshi denominated banknote"
From first glance, this goes very much against the principle of what Bitcoin is. Have you even put thought into how this would be secure? Based on your argument which is a copy paste of your description, I'd say no. Currently bitcoin uses Peer to Peer connections (blockchain) to validate every bitcoin, in order to validate "securely printed satoshi denominated banknote" you would require a bank or some other central authority which directly goes against the principle that bitcoin tries to establish which is
"Bitcoin uses peer-to-peer technology to operate with no central authority or banks; managing transactions and the issuing of bitcoins is carried out collectively by the network"
I can list a lot more reasons why Kosanke's idea is nonsense but I want to keep this short. So dear reader and opponent, with all of this in mind, do you really think that we should have "securely printed satoshi denominated banknote"?
Round 2
Thank you, Darq, for accepting my challenge.
You submitted 3 objections which I will tackle head on.
1st, you made the claim that almost everyone has access to the internet.
A quick internet search shows that a significant segment of the global population does not have access to the internet - particularly in the developing world, which is the primary market for satoshi-denominated banknotes.
2nd, you stated that it is unnecessary to write down your seed phrase on paper. While this is true, relying on Google to safeguard it is not wise. Furthermore, it would be much simpler to pass along the seed phrase to your heirs in a physical form - and even easier to simply hand them a physical note as you would with any keepsake.
3rd, you made the argument that verification of a satoshi denominated banknote would require a central bank. Anyone who has seen a paper wallet knows that the private key is part of the note. It is self custodial. The holder can sweep it to a digital wallet at any moment.
Likewise, a satoshi denominated banknote that is securely printed, and that has the private key sealed beneath a counterfeit resistant hologram, or other comparable safeguard, can be spent like cash without concern that it may be empty, without transaction fees, and without any seed phrase to memorize or store.
Good afternoon Kosanke, you submitted counters to my arguments which I will now tackle as well as providing new arguments.
For one, Wikipedia has been notoriously known to not be a credible source for information with giving mixed results on various topics. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/wikipedia/
Now to add insult to injury, this is further shown if we look in the Wikipedia article which shows diagrams from as late as 2018 (6 years ago). How do you expect me to trust Wikipedia? Especially when there is more updated and reliable sources like Forbes?
Actually, according to an article published by Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/internet/internet-statistics/)
Around 66%, a major chunk of the population, has internet access. However, you may try to argue about the remainder 34% but if 34% of people around the globe doesn't have internet access, this means they wouldn't have a digital crypto wallet. Also, why should we accommodate 34% of people who already use cash as a payment option?
As for password managers, you don't have to use Google to safeguard your passwords, you could use 3rd party password managers like Dashlane or LastPass. Bonus, Dashlane is also a crypto wallet. Even if you don't trust digital wallets, you can still create a hardware wallet using a Flash Drive.
Also, we haven't even looked at the environmental implications this would bring, because you would need more computers to verify Bitcoin being transferred between physical and digital formats. This would use so much power and other green alternatives like solar, wind, hydro are too costly.
So with all this in mind, what are the pros and cons of satoshi denominated banknotes?
Round 3
Hello again Darq. I see that I haven't convinced you of the overwhelming benefits of bitcoin banknotes yet. Allow me to guide your journey.
Both the Wikipedia article I cited and the statistic you cited from Forbes puts the current digital divide at 2/3 that have internet access and 1/3 that don't. 33% IS a significant number. So any assertion that almost everyone has internet is extremely careless.
Any digital wallet - or hardware wallet, for that matter - relies on the internet as well as a degree of digital savvy. So any attempt to reach out to this 33% target market that would require them would be fruitless.
You state that "... if 34% of people around the globe doesn't have internet access, this means they wouldn't have a digital crypto wallet."
This is exactly my point. Satoshi denominated banknotes patterned after paper wallets don't require the internet - or even the use of a computer. They can be passed around like paper money for day to day purchases over the course of several years. If someone wanted to retire one, he could sweep it to a digital wallet at any moment. Only at that point would he need a cell phone or computer.
You ask, "why should we accommodate 34% of people who already use cash as a payment option?"
The answer to that question is simple. Bitcoin is better than fiat, and satoshi denominated banknotes combine the best of both worlds, while eliminating the worst of both worlds. The "have-nots" deserve the chance to be part of the bitcoin revolution. But that would be the subject of a different debate regarding bitcoin versus fiat.
You say, "Also, we haven't even looked at the environmental implications this would bring, because you would need more computers to verify Bitcoin being transferred between physical and digital formats. This would use so much power and other green alternatives like solar, wind, hydro are too costly."
Actually, since these satoshi denominated paper or polymer banknotes would be passed from person to person physically, NO computer would be used in any such transaction. Overall, FEWER computers would be needed for as long as secure satoshi denominated banknotes are being used in place of mined bitcoin transactions.
It's cold storage combined with physical exchange.
Feel free to surrender at any moment.
Forfeited
Round 4
I see that you have forfeited, Darq.
Since 2 more rounds have been scheduled, I will take this opportunity to further elaborate upon my strategy to introduce satoshi denominated banknotes to the 3rd World, and give you the opportunity to respond in any fashion you like.
Ideally a small indebted country such as Suriname would welcome bitcoin as a long term solution to the political incentive to further debase its national currency. The campaign of Maya Parbhoe promises to establish a Sovereign Wealth Fund by which all of the citizens of Suriname receive an equal share of the profits from the sale of petroleum from its massive reserves. The Surinamese dollar would be retired in favor of bitcoin, which would become the unit of account for official business as well as the preferred medium of exchange.
Another approach, which could be combined with official issue of the banknotes, would be to hold an annual auction through which a variety of businesses and organizations would be given the opportunity to have their logo or other visual representation on the face and back of one of these denominations.
This would help to divorce the banknotes from the political process, preventing any tendency toward a return to fractional reserve banking. Of course, if the private key is embedded on every note, and it is printed securely, this will not be an issue. But the banksters were even able to sidestep the gold standard, so keeping bitcoin as far from them as possible would be desirable.
You can review the current draft of my proposal at the following link. Anyone in the audience is also welcome to comment on the doc:
Forfeited
Round 5
I have provided Darq with another opportunity, which he has, apparently, declined. I will therefore use the balance of my time to further elaborate on my plan for the hyperbitcoinization of the 3rd World via satoshi-denominated banknotes.
As I mentioned in the previous round, Suriname is the current focus. The plan of Maya Parbhoe, a leading candidate for President of the country, is to make bitcoin the medium of exchange of unit of account. She plans to establish a Sovereign Wealth Fund to distribute funds generated from the sale of petroleum in bitcoin equally to every citizen. This would provide a use case for an economy based entirely on bitcoin, and would be ideal platform for the launch of these notes. The notes could be made available to citizens at any ATM as they become available.
El Salvador, which has already declared bitcoin to be legal tender, has given the equivalent of $30US to every citizen who downloads its official Chivo app. This program could be extended to allow citizens who don't have ready internet access to receive their share via ATMs. Future funds could likewise be derived from nontax sources such as Citizenship by Investment, visa programs, flagging registries, and the like.
The auction process and issue could be self funded in any bitcoin-friendly jurisdiction without the help of any political government, but having the participation of one would get it off the ground much sooner.
I welcome anyone who is interested to join my Bitcoin Banknotes space on Quora to discuss this proposal, as well as bitcoin banknotes in general:
Good night everyone, I apologize for not giving a timely response, I had contracted a disease called dengue fever which is quite deadly in where I live since its been killing people lately and while I have not fully recovered, I want to debate.
Lets. Argue.
"This is exactly my point. Satoshi denominated banknotes patterned after paper wallets don't require the internet - or even the use of a computer. They can be passed around like paper money for day to day purchases over the course of several years. If someone wanted to retire one, he could sweep it to a digital wallet at any moment. Only at that point would he need a cell phone or computer. "
Have you ever done any work in finance? I know I have and you yourself has proved my point. You say that satoshi demoninated banknotes can be used like paper money for day to day purchases but how would that money be transferred from a buyer to a seller? All of these transactions are still require a digital transfer to happen as you yourself also said earlier in Round 2.
"Likewise, a satoshi denominated banknote that is securely printed, and that has the private key sealed beneath a counterfeit resistant hologram"
So how can that be used as cash if a different person's private key is under this measure of security?
"The answer to that question is simple. Bitcoin is better than fiat, and satoshi denominated banknotes combine the best of both worlds, while eliminating the worst of both worlds. The "have-nots" deserve the chance to be part of the bitcoin revolution. But that would be the subject of a different debate regarding bitcoin versus fiat."
Your statements are completely baseless. You can't just say Bitcoin is better than fiat without proper reason(s) or that satoshi demoninated banknotes combine the best of both worlds. This breaks a major principle of debating which is to use facts and logic.
"Actually, since these satoshi denominated paper or polymer banknotes would be passed from person to person physically, NO computer would be used in any such transaction. Overall, FEWER computers would be needed for as long as secure satoshi denominated banknotes are being used in place of mined bitcoin transactions."
If it wasn't obvious I will tell you, you will need to use more computers or more ASIC miners to secure the blockchain as now you introduce a new element into the blockchain where bitcoin in terms of data would have to be transferred from physical exchange to virtual exchange and you know what all of these heavy processes need? Electrical Energy and what is the main source of energy in the world right now? Fossil Fuels.
On there you should find a nice diagram ;)