Instigator / Con
0
1500
rating
2
debates
75.0%
won
Topic
#5444

Since there is So Much Evil in the World and God Does Not Stop It, Does this Mean There is no God?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
0
0

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Tags
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
0
1500
rating
3
debates
66.67%
won
Description

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines evil as the following: Morally reprehensible; arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct; causing discomfort or repulsion; causing harm. I prefer, however, the definition provided by J.P. Morland where he states that “Evil is a lack of what should be the case. Evil is when things aren’t the way they are supposed to be.” Another very important question that we must answer in this conversation, is how do we know what is evil? C.S. Lewis points out that when he was an atheist his “argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust…”, but he began to realize that he needed to figure out where he got the idea of just and unjust. He states “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” And Lewis asked himself, “What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” As believers, we are very aware of what is evil and how we have come to understand where evil comes from, however, when an atheist argues that there is evil in the world and therefore there is no God, it begs the question, “where do they think our idea of evil has come from?” If we are just a ball of matter and there is nothing more to us then wouldn’t our idea of evil be completely relative? I pose this question mostly because I do believe that it is important for there to be an understanding of what one believes to be evil and why they feel that way, what gave that idea?
Genesis 3:4-7 gives an account of when Adam and Eve (the first of mankind) made the decision to disobey God by eating the fruit that was on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Prior to eating the forbidden fruit, all Adam and Eve knew was of the good that God had created for them. At that time there was no evil among them or His creation of the universe. What is very important to understand, however, is that by God giving the one and only command of them to not eat the forbidden fruit, we see the initiation of free will. A choice was given to the first man and woman and they chose, by their free will to do what God had told them not to do and from that point on, things have not been the way they are supposed to be (Evil). Evil comes from the free will of mankind, therefore it is not God’s fault that we have evil in this world but simply mankind’s fault. You see, there can be good without the existence of evil but there cannot be the existence of evil without the existence of good.
But why does God allow it to continue? I do not have a definitive answer. But what I do know, is that in many peoples’ lives, when they are going through trials and pain, it becomes natural to question why, which in many ways can draw people to asking God why. When we are at our lowest points, we tend to cry out, and many times, yes they are in times of desperation, we cry out to a god that most of us have never believed in before. C.S. Lewis points out that, “God whispers in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pain. It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” As time as gone on since the fall of Adam and Eve, our world has become more and more deaf to God, and have chosen through their free will to do things that are against the way things are supposed to be. We have corrupted what is good for our own pleasures and selfish desires. But, when one sees the hope that they can have in God even during our darkest times, there becomes an unexplainable peace. The fact of the matter is that God’s word tells us that there will be a day when He puts all evil to rest and that it will no longer exist on this earth, and that we can trust in Him because even though the evil that does exist in this world is because people have turned their back on Him, He still loves us and He wants what is good for us, just like any loving father wants for their children and He wants to rescue us. All we have to do is turn back to Him and hold tight to His promises.

Round 1
Con
#1
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines evil as the following: Morally reprehensible; arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct; causing discomfort or repulsion; causing harm. I prefer, however, the definition provided by J.P. Morland where he states that “Evil is a lack of what should be the case. Evil is when things aren’t the way they are supposed to be.” Another very important question that we must answer in this conversation, is how do we know what is evil? C.S. Lewis points out that when he was an atheist his “argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust…”, but he began to realize that he needed to figure out where he got the idea of just and unjust. He states “A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.” And Lewis asked himself, “What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” As believers, we are very aware of what is evil and how we have come to understand where evil comes from, however, when an atheist argues that there is evil in the world and therefore there is no God, it begs the question, “where do they think our idea of evil has come from?” If we are just a ball of matter and there is nothing more to us then wouldn’t our idea of evil be completely relative? I pose this question mostly because I do believe that it is important for there to be an understanding of what one believes to be evil and why they feel that way, what gave that idea?

Genesis 3:4-7 gives an account of when Adam and Eve (the first of mankind) made the decision to disobey God by eating the fruit that was on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Prior to eating the forbidden fruit, all Adam and Eve knew was of the good that God had created for them. At that time there was no evil among them or His creation of the universe. What is very important to understand, however, is that by God giving the one and only command of them to not eat the forbidden fruit, we see the initiation of free will. A choice was given to the first man and woman and they chose, by their free will to do what God had told them not to do and from that point on, things have not been the way they are supposed to be (Evil). Evil comes from the free will of mankind, therefore it is not God’s fault that we have evil in this world but simply mankind’s fault. You see, there can be good without the existence of evil but there cannot be the existence of evil without the existence of good.
But why does God allow it to continue? I do not have a definitive answer. But what I do know, is that in many peoples’ lives, when they are going through trials and pain, it becomes natural to question why, which in many ways can draw people to asking God why. When we are at our lowest points, we tend to cry out, and many times, yes they are in times of desperation, we cry out to a god that most of us have never believed in before. C.S. Lewis points out that, “God whispers in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pain. It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” As time as gone on since the fall of Adam and Eve, our world has become more and more deaf to God, and have chosen through their free will to do things that are against the way things are supposed to be. We have corrupted what is good for our own pleasures and selfish desires.

Pro
#2
“Evil is a lack of what should be the case. Evil is when things aren’t the way they are supposed to be.” 
Here Con has given his definition of evil. I would like to challange it though since it is important to the argument.

He is essentially saying "evil" is a lack of something. Which means the formal nature of evil does not exist by itself, but only as a lack in something. This would imply that whatever is not lacking in something is inherently good. Which means that Being itself would have to be intrinsically good.

Does Con have a proof that Being is intrinsically good? Or at least an explanation? 
Round 2
Con
#3
He is essentially saying "evil" is a lack of something. Which means the formal nature of evil does not exist by itself, but only as a lack in something. This would imply that whatever is not lacking in something is inherently good. Which means that Being itself would have to be intrinsically good.

Does Con have a proof that Being is intrinsically good? Or at least an explanation? 

I did indeed point out in my initial argument that evil cannot exist by itself, we can have good without evil, but we cannot have evil without good. From a Christian perspective, when looking at what God initially created in the beginning, at the end of each of his creations, He declared them good. It was not until Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey God when evil entered into the picture. Everything God created before the fall was intrinsically good and stayed good until the fall. The best way that I can think about answering this question from a non-Christian view is to think about the very first minute of the very first day a baby is born, at that point that baby has an intrinsically good nature. It is fair to posit that in that very first minute of the very first day that baby enters this world, that baby knows no evil. But that baby will inevitably come to know evil at some point in its life because there will become a lack of something that should be there for that baby. 

Do you believe that evil can exist without the presence of good? 


Pro
#4
Con has essentially posited that looking at babies and seeing no evil in them at the first moment of their existence is a proof that being is intrinsically good. Little bit of a "appeal to cute and cuddly" fallacy

The problem with that is that a tornado is not the same as a baby.

I will posit with Con that willed evil is on the part of those who will it does not constitute an argument against the existence of God.


Teleological evil in simple terms is evil that happens without intent (like a car accident), or evil that exists for the sake of evil. (like a tornado or a hurricane)

Con has posited that evil is a lack of due good. Yet here we see something, (i.e. not a lack) That seems to exist simply for the sake of evil. Namely a tornado taking out the house of well-behaved hardworking farmer and his family as an example

So how does Con posit that this teleological evil, namely this horrific tornado, is evil without changing his definition? He will have to demonstrate that Being is intrinsically good in all Being, not just babies.

Then he has to show that this evil in being is not a blatatnt contradiction to the almighty, omniscient God. This is important because evil is more apparent to us than God is.
Round 3
Con
#5
When we look at something like natural disasters we are seeing things that are set out for destruction,  no matter how great or small that destruction is. What we have to remember here is that death, destruction, sin, and all the things that constitute evil did not exist when God originally created the universe. Everything was intrinsically good because evil had not entered the world until the disobedience of Adam and Eve (Genesis 1-3).  

My argument has not been that everything in this world today is intrinsically good, it is simply that at one point there was nothing but good that was eventually corrupted and became evil due to the free will that God gave mankind. Sean Mcdowell points out that, "Evil is a corruption of what is good." As tornados are considered a natural disaster and as you put it, "Something that is not lacking" I would posit that while a tornado is something not lacking in and of itself, it is about how our universe is lacking the full goodness that was originally created in the beginning, therefore, again, death, destruction, sin and all things considered evil are a part of our world as we know it, because that which was once intrinsically and completely good, and because of the corruption that entered the world things are no longer the way they are supposed to be. 

I would like to pose this question. As I have provided my thoughts of how we have evil in this world, and how I define evil, I think it is important to the debate to share what you believe and how they define evil. If you believe there is no God and the fact that evil in this world proves that there is no God, how do you constitute what is evil? You speak of a tornado killing a hard-working,  well-behaved farmer and his family and you deem that as an act of evil. What is it that makes you think that is evil? Where does your idea of evil come from? 


Pro
#6
Fair enough objections from Con.

My argument has not been that everything in this world today is intrinsically good
So here we touch on the very heart of the problem. 

Con seems to be implying that there are some things in the world today that are not intrinsically good. Meaning good in and of itself without relation to other beings.

Thus this comes to the very heart of the matter. If these things that do exist are not in and of themselves good, this means they are evil, which 
  •    Defies Con´s definition of evil, because he is saying there is something (i.e. not a lack) that is evil (no intrinsic good)
  •    God, as understood as all-benevolent and the cause of all things would then have produced a being in evil thus contradicting the very notion of God.
  •    Thus, because evil is immediately apparent and God is not, we are forced to conclude that God must not exist because evil does.
As for the questions of Con

how do you constitute what is evil? You speak of a tornado killing a hard-working,  well-behaved farmer and his family and you deem that as an act of evil. What is it that makes you think that is evil? Where does your idea of evil come from? 
Good is immediately apparent at the same time evil is. The question has to do with the relation between evil and God. As you have seemed to have indicated, there are evil things in this world. It is on those we are focusing. Yes, we compare them to good, because good is also obvious. Even if you say evil was once good corrupted by free will of men, you have not proved that. You have only asserted it. I can equally disregard it.

The idea of evil comes from an understanding of the apparent good. Because our minds can understand relations.