Trans women are not colloquially women.
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After not so many votes...
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One rule: All questions must be answered directly, not with irrelevant matter and applicable yes or no answers to clear yes or no questions followed up with elaboration if desired.
The reason why trans woman disclosing their past and present gender identity is important in some situations is because most people have a strong genital preference. It is conceivable for a cis woman to get bottom surgery then to get sexually involved (without disclosing their surgery), and that would be bad for the exact same reason for when a trans woman who has not gotten bottom surgery to get sexually involved without disclosing their past and present gender identity. In fact, I guarantee that if the former was as of a widespread phenomena these two people would have the exact same obligation disclose certain thing - not because of their sex - but their gender is associated with a sex."
- Something used in ordinary or familiar conversation is colloquial.
- Female is of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.
- Every individual that’s convincingly a woman is a woman in everyday conversation.
- Some transgender women are an individual that’s convincingly a woman.
In everyday conversation (colloquial dialogue) , the use of the term woman is commonly received with the implication that natural females from birth are being referred to....Used in everyday conversation and throughout history, when the term woman is used, when you think of a woman, it is exactly that.
You say "appearance " and what is the appearance of a cisgender and trans?Are they seamless in physical proportion? In close proximity, can a disparity be established?With a difference, this is not what is being referred to nor have in mind because cis men anticipate that there be a difference so they automatically won't have it in mind. It wouldn't even enter their minds.Due to this in the minds of men, this colloquial distinction is a representation of this mindset in men. Separating the idea of "real" women (women) vs pseudo women (trans woman; she-man).
"PRO's rebuttal seems to be that seems to be that men's lack of distinction between transgender woman who look like women and women who look like women (since they only think of the latter) reinforces the idea there is a separation of "real" and "pseudo" women? The point is that men would also colloquially include transgender women in the category of woman. Not entirely sure how the premises even lead to the conclusion. Please try to write in a more understandable manner on this point specifically, since the argument trying to be made here seems to be unclear."I still wish to know and request from the opposing side why some transgender women are not colloquially women.
See if we can discuss the common ground on that, we can ride that line of reasoning to all transgender women. If you're just going to argue " some transgender women are called a woman in ordinary conversation [1.1]; therefore, some transgender women are colloquially women.", that's just relative , is it not?I can just say all transgender women are called anything else but women so therefore. It all depends on the context and environment , doesn't it?But when I say "colloquial" and this may be the part that needs cleared up for the opposing side so that it registers, it's not just simply calling something a name. It is referring to with an exclusive connotation as I mentioned.
Again, if transgenders and cis people just fit the same labeled connotation, we're not being accurate, honest and appropriating value properly....Again , the distinction and disclosure of a sex identity would not exist because a transgender that may appear as a natural born female , carries the label woman, that label is received with the colloquial connotation of a woman which is the natural woman.
For an illustration because this may help better. A man see what appears to be a woman walking down the street. He approaches the person because the person appears attractive and is appealing to him.So far looks like a woman, begins a conversation , talks like a woman. What is in that man's mind? He's only interested in the opposite sex. He's encountered someone that appears to fit that.
One thing I say about the meaning of colloquial. It's what is used everyday ordinary familiar conversation. Not everyday and ordinary conversation based on a region , society, culture. That's subjective . You and I can make the opposing cases based on the same rule or basis. It's not based on an environment because it's objective in universal language.
Anywhere in conversation, a woman is a natural woman. That's colloquial. Some places in conversation , a woman is both a natural and transgender woman. That's social. Like I said last round, perhaps when the average perceived natural woman is actually a transgender , the connotation distinction will disappear because it'll be what you see , talk to, refer to everyday ordinarily as a woman. You see, it'll more familiar than ever before.
"It is relative as that is the nature of colloquial usages of words"This is not correct according to the definition given .I explained the difference last round .
"However, saying you can exclude all transgender women from anything else but women therefore... CON notices that PRO has not finished the point, however, for good reason. Since if they finished the argument they would either conclude that no transgender women are colloquially women or some transgender women are not colloquially women. "This is also incorrect. The point was the relative reason can based on whatever. It doesn't matter the reason. The point is that it's subjective which is societal versus colloquial which is universal.
"If something is colloquial it includes all words that are used in ordinary or familiar conversation."Correct . That's all words, not some but all familiar words to who? A society, a region, a niche, a political party, which one?If one and not the other, then that negates the concept of ordinary.See it is ordinary from the beginning of there being a woman. What has been ordinary about her? She has been recognized as such and has been carried on through to be referred to as that thus establishing a colloquial reference, concept and connotation.But because we're having this disagreement right now, there's disagreement all over the world regarding what's a real woman. What constitutes a woman fluctuates and is dependent on social subjectivity.But a natural female from birth is just that. No disagreement or controversy there. Everywhere you go you get the same connotation as it is ordinary.
"It would be akin to saying that some colloquial use of sick means cool, but then disagree because everyone can scope the colloquialism to refer only to poor-health or being ill; it is weird, fallacious, and seems to be a cop-out from acknowledging that some transgender women are colloquially women. "Now you're confusing slangs into this which are again subjective.An appropriate example would be "heart attack". Colloquially what other expression is used to refer to what it medically called myocardial infarction?Same thing with high blood pressure or being fired. All colloquial or universal language pointing to a constant ordinary connotation.
"This is essentially saying that the colloquial use of women is natural women, moreover, no transgender women is a natural women; therefore, no transgender women is colloquially a women. However, the former premise is not substantiated at all."The opposing side says "not substantiated at all". The opposing side's understanding is insubstantial. What is also insubstantial is saying some transgender woman are colloquially women because some are called women. Just being called that does not make a colloquialism because it would be foreign and not familiar to those who don't connote transgender women as colloquial women. That is because to them, they're men turned women. The distinction is very important especially to cis heterosexual men. This distinction would not be perpetuated if the connotation difference didn't exist for all transgender women. It is defined this way as the transgender woman is not regarded the same as every woman. The opposing side is arguing in pockets that transgender women are colloquially women which is actually relativism. There's a difference.
What I asked of the opposing side is the claim about insufficiency, what else do you need to suffice that cis and transgender women are not exactly the same?Being that they're not exactly the same, the connotation would not be the same. I believe the opposing side drops this point regarding explaining the difference to a child . You say all transgender women are colloquially women or some are, you're in a confusing conflicting problem. Why are there some that are given this basis to be colloquially such that can't extend to the rest and vice versa?This is supposed to be ordinary and familiar. You're going to have to explain what you're calling ordinary is not so ordinary. The end result and conclusion is the array of social conflicts, constructs and vernaculars.
" What if they just never know? What if, before during and after intercourse, the person just never realizes they are a transgender woman in their entire life? The illustration here is so flawed."The opposing side is grasping at straws. What if the transgender person does not realize the body has went through transition and yet has had I guess sexual intercourse?
Why wouldn't the person know what he(she) is? Did the person experience amnesia? How is the person not going to know what he is at some point at least?
Wouldn't the cis male recognize while engaging in a sex act of male genitals attached to the trans gender that has not had genital surgery?
- The scenario given by PRO never mentioned that the transgender man has or needed to have male genitalia. All this seems to accomplish is to make the conversation less direct and to avoid actually answering the questions.
- PRO said that "A cis gender person that has altered the genitalia is a transgender." This is after giving a scenario where a woman gets bottom surgery but does identify as a woman. Then they continue: "It's the same way vice versa."
- Either three things: PRO's original rebuttal does not stand up, other factors are important in determining if someone is transgender (but for some reason the alteration of genitalia is more important only in situations where someone who still identifies with their gender at birth but have bottom surgery), or it is merely a contradiction.
- The first is, like, fine.
- This is just special pleading; a fallacy.
- In which case, PRO is only objective is to muddy the waters. Why exactly does the transgender woman have male genitalia in the scenario PRO made up when they would not consider them transgender?
- Of course, PRO would never admit this but is good to point out.
"Since some men consider transgender women as actual women, and thus, are examples of people who would call these transgender women, well, women in everyday conversation."A couple of issues that stick out, one is "consider". Which means to think of. So some men think of these people as natural women but know they're not so would these men consistently ordinarily refer to these people as not trans women?Think of it. This is just as misleading as applying the false connotation the same way between cis and trans women. Same logic brings the flawed approach. You say it's ordinary conversation, why am I finding conversations where it's not ordinary? Which one is it?
Same logic brings the flawed approach. You say it's ordinary conversation, why am I finding conversations where it's not ordinary?
So some men think of these people as natural women but know they're not so would these men consistently ordinarily refer to these people as not trans women?
- The scenario given by PRO never mentioned that the transgender man has or needed to have male genitalia. All this seems to accomplish is to make the conversation less direct and to avoid actually answering the questions.
- PRO said that "A cis gender person that has altered the genitalia is a transgender." This is after giving a scenario where a woman gets bottom surgery but does identify as a woman. Then they continue: "It's the same way vice versa."
- Either three things: PRO's original rebuttal does not stand up, other factors are important in determining if someone is transgender (but for some reason the alteration of genitalia is more important only in situations where someone who still identifies with their gender at birth but have bottom surgery), or it is merely a contradiction.
- The first is, like, fine.
- This is just special pleading; a fallacy.
- In which case, PRO is only objective is to muddy the waters. Why exactly does the transgender woman have male genitalia in the scenario PRO made up when they would not consider them transgender?
- Of course, PRO would never admit this but is good to point out.
"Wow, a clearly true and valid syllogism. Seems like the example CON used was correct. It also seems like a word can be both slang and colloquial - it almost seems like they are not mutually exclusive."Slang and colloquial are not the same.
Yes "hot woman " is not a colloquialism, it is a slang.
"Did not know the world revolves around you. Did not know that what you see brings is what "logic" is. All of this is absurd."Hey my friend, check this out:*******Just like I as others do not refer to trans gender women as women so therefore they're not colloquially women.*******
Remember the times when teachers told us to instead use the sources Wikipedia cites rather than wikipedia itself? Yeah, good times.
->A female according to a search on Google: "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."
This is a bad definition for what a woman is. I have a better one.
It's noice to see Mall finally getting the hang of the bolding function, we will wait five more years to see if he will use the italic and underline functions, and 10 more for the quoting function, and 15 more for the hyperlink function.