Instigator / Pro

Best.Korea

1233

rating

408

debates

39.09%

won

Topic

#5197

You choose the topic

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Best.Korea

Parameters

Publication date: 01.20.2024 06:26PM
Last updated date: 02.20.2024 12:09PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

shotgun_mastif

1500

rating

debates

33.33%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

Best.Korea

01.27.2024 12:39PM

Pro

Pick the topic.

shotgun_mastif

01.27.2024 03:00PM

Con

let us go with "death penalties are morally right"

Round 2

Best.Korea

01.27.2024 03:43PM

Pro

Topic: "death penalties are morally right"

This topic is very hard to defend because it does not specify which type of death penalty I must defend, so by logic I must defend all of them, even the very painful ones.

So by logic I cannot count on reduction in pain as a basis.

But I can use the system of justice - lex talionis.

It is a principle which says that punishment for the crime should be proportional to the crime in effects.

So equal amount of pain or damage is to be caused to the criminal as punishment.

Since overwhelming majority of those condemned to death penalty have done things which are very horrible and beyond repair, it would be absurd to say they should enjoy peace while being in prison and living without having to work, which some of them will do.

It would be also absurd to suggest that they should be enabled to commit more crimes in prison, which some of them will do.

Since death penalty essentially reduces their life more than any other punishment, it denies them of joy and life and causes them pain, closely to what they caused to their victims.

The prison punishment does not guarantee same, nor does punishment of torture, as prison punishment does not guarantee pain and doesnt cause death, where torture does not cause death, and torture for years is not equal to what they usually cause to their victims nor is it same time of torture.

Why should one uphold lex talionis?

It does not do light punishments and cause victim to be more harmed than criminal.

It does not do draconian punishments and cause that criminal is harmed more than the harm he has done.

It would be absurd to say that person should pay for crime more than the damage caused by crime, or less than the harm caused by crime.

The first means that punishment exceeds crime, therefore making person pay for more than he has done.

The second mean that person pays for less than he has done.

Both principles lead into slippery slope, where punishments are either too brutal, creating unjust society, or too light, again creating unjust society.

Since justice is an important value in a system which is supposed to give justice, it follows that it is morally good as well, since justice is an important moral value.

shotgun_mastif

01.29.2024 01:02PM

Con

Now i will start of by thanking my opponent for accepting this topic.

The first point i would like to put in your perspective is that killing someone is never morally justified here is why --

If i were to find a criminal who has commited heinous crimes, i can come to a very quick conclusion that he commited those for a reason .

We all are well aware of the fact that no one is born as a criminal and every human has some form of morality and ideals. Usually we humans leave this morality and commit crimes and here i would like to put a very interesting thing into perspective and that is such morality is diminished not entire vanquished and by killing someone as a punishment is going to kill such morality and will remove the opportunity for us to actually bring back such morality.

Now comes the case of literal psychopaths, they do not commit crimes for a reason, they commit crimes as they want to commit crimes ( it would probably satisfy their inner instincts). If we look deeply in it we will find a very interesting dilemma here and that is these psychopaths aren't mentally well. Killing them becomes unjust because these 'people' are mentally ill are not capable of actually seeing the idea of morality and killing them would mean that we are exterminating those whom we find 'Incapable and unsafe' to live in this society, and by that logic i can place the argument that all crippled and mentally ill people should be killed because they fall in the same category.

My opponent talks about letting someone live in peace in prison after committing heinous crimes, i would put a very simple argument and that is that no man can stay inside the prison in peace. Prison is an extremely unpleasant place, a place where life is considered absolutely miserable. With the help of prison we can teach the criminals the importance of their freedom and inspire them to not commit such crimes.

Even after the prison many prisoners tell how their life becomes miserable because of the lack of employment and social discrimination. It is a type of place that is unpleasant when you stay their and unpleasant after you get out of their.

Such a punishment can be intensified by simply lowering the standard of living even more. (Even though the standard of living in prison is already very low).

But by killing someone we absolutely free them of their sins in a simple and a quick manner, they never get to experience the punishment and will never feel the damage that they cause at the first place.

Then their comes the idea of torture and that is a fate worse then death and so it is not the ideal method of it as well.

Their are painful method of deaths as well which are absolutely barbaric and lethal.

Prison and other punishment such as fines, putting pain on criminals (not torture) (such as whips on back), exiling etc are better and less barbaric methods of punishment.

These punishment are far better as they let the prisoner experience the rebuttal of their actions and so death penalty is never the proper method of punishment.

Round 3

Best.Korea

01.31.2024 01:53AM

Pro

Prison is an extremely unpleasant place, a place where life is considered absolutely miserable

So death penalty is prefered to life in prison then.

And very serious crimes can only be punished with long prison time or death penalty.

Countries which have punishment of death penalty use it for crimes they consider very serious.

Without death penalty, the only alternative is long prison time.

I will make my case simple.

Only death penalty meets "eye for eye" type of justice.

My opponent must ultimately defend a different position, that punishment shouldnt be eye for eye, which means injustice since criminal is harmed more than the harm he caused.

shotgun_mastif

01.31.2024 11:32AM

Con

Countries that have a punishment of death penalty use it for crimes they consider very serious.

an elementary and sound idea

Only the death penalty meets the "eye for eye" type of justice.

here my opponent fumbles up, I will give a condition to support my argument, let us assume a man named John, John turns psychopathic and kills 10 people and the government hangs him. now I would like to ask a straightforward question how is the miserable and disgusting guy of John equal to the 10 innocent people he killed? this is not an eye for an eye justice. this death penalty is injustice and the criminal must be punished more severely to provide justice if you are looking for "an eye for an eye" type of justice.

the death penalty is ultimately an oversimplification of punishment, other punishments such as exile, imprisonment are far more flexible and interchangeable, you can modify them to make sure you maintain justice.

the death penalty is very rigid and is most likely to deliver injustice. henceforth it is not morally right.

Round 4

Best.Korea

01.31.2024 12:09PM

Pro

John turns psychopathic and kills 10 people and the government hangs him.

My opponent assumes that in this example, life in prison is closer to "eye for eye" than death penalty, but it isnt.

First, person in prison can commit more crimes and kill more people.

Second, life in prison is much longer in duration than time it took to kill 10 people.

So if person experiences lots of pain in prison for entire life, that is more pain than 10 people experienced for a few moments.

Third, death penalty meets "eye for eye" better because there are innocent people in prison.

It would be very wrong to inflict life time of pain on an innocent, more wrong than it would be to inflict a death penalty upon an innocent.

"Studies estimate that between 4-6% of people incarcerated in US prisons are actually innocent."

https://www.georgiainnocenceproject.org/general/beneath-the-statistics-the-structural-and-systemic-causes-of-our-wrongful-conviction-problem/

But thats for USA.

In less developed countries, trials arent done as good, which likely means more innocent people in prison.

shotgun_mastif

02.02.2024 12:09PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 5

Best.Korea

02.04.2024 12:09PM

Pro

Forfeited

shotgun_mastif

02.06.2024 12:09PM

Con

#10

Forfeited

Best.Korea

01.24.2024 05:14PM

-->

@TheUnderdog

Well, so far no one has suggested any crazy topics.

I mostly post these for new users, or anyone who wishes to debate some topic.

The number of debates and debaters is decreasing, which kinda makes me willing to debate almost any topic.

I wouldnt debate some really nasty topics, but other than that, I am willing to debate anything.

Some topics are unknown for me, but I figured I can use google to research.

I noticed that people are not really starting much of the new topics.

TheUnderdog

01.24.2024 12:46AM

-->

@Best.Korea

You should change the title of this debate to, "You choose the topic if I approve of it".

I can make the topic, "Raping adult virgin women and then slicing their throat with a knife that is so hot it's glowing should be legal as a way to prove your masculinity" and then you would be stuck with defending the Pro side. If you switch the side, I can make a slight tweak to the original statement,
"Raping adult virgin women and then slicing their throat with a knife that is so hot it's glowing should NOT be legal as a way to prove your masculinity" and then you are stuck.

I don't think you want to do that. You need vetting before you do debates like this.

Benjamin

02.09.2024 03:37AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

CON forfeited more. PRO made some interesting arguments that never got refuted by CON.