Instigator / Pro
0
1233
rating
403
debates
39.45%
won
Topic
#5166
Abortion is morally good (Challenge for Mall)
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
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0
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
0
1389
rating
413
debates
44.55%
won
Description
Dont accept if you are not Mall.
Round 1
Pro
#1
My arguments will rest upon moral system of preventing pain as the best possible action.
Premise 1: Pain is the worst thing in the world
Premise 2: Preventing the worst thing in the world from happening is morally the best action.
Conclusion: Preventing pain from happening is morally the best action.
To support premise 1, I merely need to show that pain is the worst thing in the world.
Other than pain, there is happiness, lack of happiness, freedom and lack of freedom, life and lack of life.
Would anyone trade 1 year of lack of happiness for 1 year of being burned alive?
No one would.
Would anyone trade 1 year of lack of freedom for 1 year of being burned alive?
No one would.
Would anyone choose to live and be burned alive for a year over instantly dying painlessly?
No one would.
Therefore, we see that with equal time of each misfortune, avoiding great pain becomes preferred over avoiding anything else.
If a man had a choice to
1. live with no freedom and happiness, but not in pain
or
2. to live and be burned alive every day
or
3. To die instantly
We see that 2 is the least desirable option. Even if 2 allowed you to have freedom, it would still be the least desirable option.
Some might say that people can be happy, which makes up for pain.
That assumption too is false.
If given the choice to:
1. Be burned alive for a year and then be happy for a year
2. Die instantly
We see that 1 is the least desirable option.
That is because of the time effect of pain. When in pain, the perception of time slows down.
In fact, burning for 5 minutes would seem like eternity.
Happiness has a time effect where perception of time speeds up. So 5 minutes of happiness is a very short time, much shorter than 5 minutes of pain.
Despite having the same objective duration, the duration of pain and happiness is not felt same. Pain always lasts longer in mind.
Pain is the worst because person wants to remove pain at all cost.
Persons who are in pain, even depressed persons, often desire death and attempt suicide. This proves that desire for removing pain beats the will to live even if that pain is not great pain but just constant pain.
In fact, if given the option to:
1. Live happily in freedom for 70 years and then be burned alive and die from being burned
or
2. Not live at all
We see that 1 is still a less desirable option.
If person had a choice between:
1. Being burned alive for entire day while 10 other persons live in freedom and happiness
2. Him and those 10 others instantly dying painlessly
Option 1 would be least desirable for that person.
There is simply no happiness that can make up for great pain. Nothing can make up for great pain.
Obviously, not all people experience same type of pain or same amount.
Some people get sexually abused. Some people get slowly crushed. Some people die from cancer. Some people drown. Some people break an arm or leg. Some experience great pain at dentist. Some get beaten. Some get emotionally abused. Some are simply depressed.
"A range of child sexual abuse prevalence rates has been derived from these studies. These studies suggest the child sexual abuse prevalence rate for girls is 10.7% to 17.4%* and the rate for boys is 3.8% to 4.6%*. These six studies suggest an overall full-childhood sexual abuse prevalence rate of 7.5% – 11.7%*"
Thats 1 in 10 children.
"1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted)."
"In addition, survivors of sexual assault have an increased likelihood of developing symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).1 They might feel as though they are always in danger or need to always be on guard, and may distrust other people."
"What Is PTSD?
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that causes a variety of troubling symptoms in the aftermath of a traumatic event like sexual assault.
PTSD is fairly common among people who have experienced sexual assault. In one study, nearly 75% of sexual assault survivors met the diagnostic criteria for PTSD one month after an assault, and nearly 48% still met the criteria one year after an assault."
"Intimate partner violence is very common: 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men are victim to some form of physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. "
"Approximately one in four children experience child abuse or neglect in their lifetime. Of maltreated children, 18 percent are abused physically, 78 percent are neglected, and 9 percent are abused sexually."
"It's difficult to measure exactly how many children in the UK experience emotional abuse. However, research with 2,275 young people aged 11-17 about their experiences of emotional abuse suggests around 1 in 15 children in the UK have been emotionally abused."
If we look at most common causes of death, we see that cancer and heart attack are most common causes of death. Both are very painful.
"When Abdoulaye’s mother left his hospital bedside to pick up medicine from the pharmacy, I helped fan him. Temperatures in Senegal reach the 90s in November, and the air in the ward for children with advanced cancer hung hot and still. Flies buzzed, landing on the faces of patients who were too tired to swat them away.
Abdoulaye, age 4 ½, had a type of cancer that caused tumors to form on his bones, and is extremely painful.
For six months Abdoulaye received no morphine – a standard part of treatment in many parts of the world. When he arrived in the cancer ward, he received a few doses of the painkiller. Then Senegal ran short of morphine.
Because of the pain, Abdoulaye couldn’t speak. His feet and body were swollen from the cancer. He cried constantly, and would shriek whenever anyone lifted him.
My grandfather died of lung cancer, and it was horrible. But you don’t know how much worse it is when you don’t have morphine."
Pain also comes from work. Due to nature of human life, most people have to work, which results in back pain, stress, and not enough time to enjoy life.
Because work takes at least 9 hours, and sleep takes 8 hours, and meals take 2 hours, it follows that most people have only 5 hours of free time per day. This excludes resting from work, taking care of family, taking care of house, cleaning, paying bills...ect.
In reality, there is not much room for happiness for most people.
"The percentage of U.S. adults who report having been diagnosed with depression at some point in their lifetime has reached 29.0%, nearly 10 percentage points higher than in 2015."
Living in poverty, being homeless or having money problems also contributes to daily stress.
"In the United States, poverty has both social and political implications. In 2020, there were 37.2 million people in poverty.[1] Some of the many causes include income inequality,[needs update][2] inflation, unemployment, debt traps and poor education.[needs update][3] The majority of adults living in poverty are employed and have at least a high school education.[4] Although the US is a relatively wealthy country by international standards,[5] it has a persistently high poverty rate compared to other developed countries due in part to a less generous welfare system.[4]"
Plenty of wars around the world and the threat of wars are adding further to the pain in life.
"An overwhelming majority of Americans — 76 percent — are worried that the United States will become engaged in a major war in the next four years, according to a new NBC News|SurveyMonkey National Security Poll out Tuesday."
Since pain is obviously the worst thing in the world, it follows that preventing pain is the best thing in the world, the most moral action.
And this is where we come to abortions.
Life is the cause of pain. Thus, not creating life prevents pain.
Abortion kills the fetus, therefore abortion is preventing fetus from feeling any pain in life.
This not only saves fetus from pain, but indirectly saves humans and animals from pain.
Fetus could have grown into abusive person. He would most likely drive a car, which results in many animals being crushed to death or left alive with broken bones. He would most likely be a meat eater, which results in a system where animals live crowded in pain, abused and then slaughtered. He might even decide to have children, which would further increase pain in the world. Giving birth to a child increases population, which contributes to overpopulation, causing struggle for resources, causing wars and further lowering life quality.
Compared to all that, abortion is much less painful.
In fact, in the first 24 weeks, abortion is not painful at all.
"The science conclusively establishes that a human fetus does not have the capacity to experience pain until after at least 24–25 weeks. Every major medical organization that has examined this issue and peer-reviewed studies on the matter have consistently reached the conclusion that abortion before this point does not result in the perception of pain in a fetus.i, ii, iii, iv, v"
Therefore, early abortion is an action that prevents the most pain.
When having a decision to have abortion, in every case the amount of possible pain that is prevented outweights the possible amount of pain caused.
Con
#2
"Premise 1: Pain is the worst thing in the world
Premise 2: Preventing the worst thing in the world from happening is morally the best action.
Conclusion: Preventing pain from happening is morally the best action."
To prevent pain of a father by preventing abortion of his child is morally good. Same way goes for the mother.
To prevent pain of the unborn by no abortion is morally good.
Prevent pain of those who are against abortion is morally good.
Right out the gate, your premises support that abortion is wrong or morally wrong, whatever, due to the opposite effect of it not being done morally good.
That's how thin those premises are . Everything else you have to say might as well be reconstructed.
I think this is the most information I seen you state without being directly on topic.
Now we can get back to abortion .
"Life is the cause of pain. Thus, not creating life prevents pain.
Abortion kills the fetus, therefore abortion is preventing fetus from feeling any pain in life.
This not only saves fetus from pain, but indirectly saves humans and animals from pain. "
I'll reiterate this:
"To prevent pain of a father by preventing abortion of his child is morally good. Same way goes for the mother.
To prevent pain of the unborn by no abortion is morally good.
Prevent pain of those who are against abortion is morally good."
"Fetus could have grown into abusive person."
"could have"
Got to be careful about these "could haves". Looking for proof, not speculation.
"Compared to all that, abortion is much less painful."
It would not be of course if the flip side happens instead every negative outcome put forth.
"In fact, in the first 24 weeks, abortion is not painful at all."
Except to the fathers that wanted the child for example.
"Therefore, early abortion is an action that prevents the most pain."
It will certainly cause it just the same so maybe pick another standard that is exclusive to assessing abortion as good to you or morally as you say .
"When having a decision to have abortion, in every case the amount of possible pain that is prevented outweights the possible amount of pain caused."
We don't even know every case so that's also inadmissible.
Round 2
Pro
#3
To prevent pain of a father by preventing abortion of his child is morally good. Same way goes for the mother.To prevent pain of the unborn by no abortion is morally good.
Emotional pain does not outweight emotional and physical pain and a painful death.
Abortion only causes emotional pain to the parents.
Child birth causes emotional and physical pain to the child.
The second is much worse than the first.
I would rather have emotional pain of not having children, than have emotional pain and be burned alive or be crushed by car.
Abortion only causes the first, the emotional pain, where child birth causes much more pain and also causes emotional pain.
Got to be careful about these "could haves". Looking for proof, not speculation.
Actually, with massive amounts of children being born, "could have" is guaranteed.
It would not be of course if the flip side happens instead every negative outcome put forth.
You cannot guarantee the flip side, where negative outcomes are guaranteed. Even if 10 out of 1000 children felt no pain in life, there is no way for you to know if the child you would give birth to belongs in category of 10.
Since you cannot know, the only moral thing to do is act by greatest possibility, and since pain is the greatest possibility in life, and preventing pain is the most moral action, and abortion prevents any pain a child could have, it follows that abortion is the most moral action.
Since some people obviously commit suicide, it follows that their life was torture and in their case, that torture was worse than death.
In their example, they showed that they are ready to end themselves just to end pain.
However, lack of suicide does not mean that person wants to live. Many people suffer from depression and wish they werent born, but they dont kill themselves.
Another common pain is bullying.
"One out of every five (20.2%) students report being bullied. (National Center for Educational Statistics, 2019 )
A higher percentage of male than of female students report being physically bullied (6% vs. 4%), whereas a higher percentage of female than of male students reported being the subjects of rumors (18% vs. 9%) and being excluded from activities on purpose (7% vs. 4%). (National Center for Educational Statistics, 2019)
41% of students who reported being bullied at school indicated that they think the bullying would happen again. (National Center for Educational Statistics, 2019 )
Of those students who reported being bullied, 13% were made fun of, called names, or insulted; 13% were the subject of rumors; 5% were pushed, shoved, tripped, or spit on; and 5% were excluded from activities on purpose. (National Center for Educational Statistics, 2019)"
Happiness is much less temporary than pain. Person cannot be happy all the time, but can be in pain all the time.
The point is, when giving birth to a child, you cannot guarantee that child wont be in great unbearable pain and wont desire to die. But when having an early abortion, you can guarantee that child will never be in pain.
Also, if you are one of those who believes that happiness in the world outweights pain, that can be negated in 2 ways:
1. Torturing a minority with great pain so that majority can be happy is immoral. Therefore, child birth which causes exactly that is immoral.
2. If I were to be burned alive for years but could prevent it by ending the entire world peacefully, I would rather have entire world end peacefully. Thats because great pain is infinitely times worse than simple lack of happiness.
If I had to be tortured with great pain for infinite amount of time, but could choose to stop it by ending the entire world peacefully, I would end the entire world peacefully.
In the world, there are plenty of people going through great pain all the time.
Since most people wouldnt want to be in unbearable pain, it follows that they shouldnt cause it to others.
So stopping pain by stopping child birth is morally good.
Most people don't even come close to considering whether life is worth living, let alone any philosophy in general. Most people are caught up in their own worlds and just going about the motions. There's a percentage of people who don't even have internal monologue. A lot of justification for life is people living it and then coming up with rationalizations and coping as to why they should, if they ever do consider questions like these.
Life is by default suffering and pleasure isn't guaranteed.
An equal amount of units in both pain and pleasure is not valued equally by humans. In other words, humans experience far more negative emotion with one unit of pain than they do positive emotion with one unit of pleasure. Unit can be expressed in time or in strength of effect. The greatest possible pain far exceeds the greatest possible pleasure. In fact, 1 minute of greatest possible pleasure would never be agreed to if it came with 1 minute of greatest possible pain. I myself would never agree to something like that, and I dont think anyone would.
We're born into suffering but pleasure isn't guaranteed.
We dont know how painful our death will be, or how painful is it to die.
Pain outweights all life.
If I had the options to:
1. Sacrifice myself to save 10 people
I would sacrifice myself.
2. Be in eternal great pain or have me and 10 other people die.
If forced to have option 2, I would rather have me and 10 other people die than be in eternal great pain.
So we see that desire to remove pain outweights all, even desire to live or save others.
Lets see more examples of pain in life.
"Cluster headaches
A cluster headache is a rare type of headache, known for its extreme intensity and a pattern of occurring in “clusters”. Autonomic symptoms such as agitation and restlessness accompany the headache. The pain is so severe that it can affect a person’s ability to perform daily activities. The pain is often preceded by a migraine-like aura and followed by severe pain located quite often at one side of the head. The pain peaks over the next 5 to 10 minutes and intensifies for the next three hours or so. It goes away but may come back up to eight times a day.
Herpes zoster or shingles
Herpes zoster or shingles is a viral disease that affects the nerves. It leads to sharp, shooting, and burning pain, accompanied by itching, tingling, rash, and fluid-filled blisters. The varicella-zoster virus (VZV), the same virus that causes chicken pox, can continue to live in the nerve cells after an attack of chickenpox. It may be reactivated on occasion, to cause shingles in some people. It is among the most painful conditions known. Age and weakened immunity predispose to activation.
Frozen Shoulder
A frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitis) is a condition that causes stiffness and pain on the shoulder joint. The signs and symptoms include severe pain, limited range of motion, and stiff shoulder joint. The symptoms begin gradually and worsen over time. It typically resolves within one to three years.
Bone fracture
A fractured bone pertains to a crack or a break in the bone. It can occur in any bone in the body and causes severe pain and inflammation. The severity of a fracture depends on the force that caused the break. Hence, there are many types of fractures – stable, open, transverse, oblique, and comminuted. The pain associated with a fracture is severe and may lead to limitation of movement of the affected area.
Complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS)
Complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS) is a chronic pain condition that affects one limb (foot, hand, leg or arm) after an injury. It usually stems from damage or malfunction of the peripheral and central nervous system. The pain is described as burning, “pins and needles” or squeezing sensation. Aside from the severe pain, other symptoms include changes in skin color, temperature, or swelling of the affected limb.
Heart attack
Heart attack or myocardial infarction (MI) is a potentially fatal condition in which a part of the heart loses its blood supply. It is one of the leading causes of death across the globe. The prevalence of MI approaches three million people worldwide with more than one million deaths in the United States each year. When the blood flow to the heart muscles become blocked, the heart is starved of oxygen and the cells die. The pain of a heart attack is described as crushing chest pain, a feeling of pressure or tightness in the chest, or aching in the chest that spreads to the arms, neck, and jaw.
Slipped disc
Pelvic intervertebral disc prolapse or slipped disc is a condition in which the soft cushion of tissue present between adjacent spinal bones pushes out. A slipped disc can irritate nearby nerves, resulting in pain and numbness or weakness in an arm or leg. The pain worsens after sitting or standing, walking short distances, and with certain movements. The pain is more severe at night, and is accompanied by burning, tingling, and aching sensations on the affected area.
Kidney stones
Kidney stones form when there is a decrease in urine volume or an excess of stone-forming components in the urine. A kidney stone may not cause any symptoms unless it moves around within the kidney and passes down in the ureter. Severe pain may then occur in the side and back, below the ribs, and can radiate to the lower abdomen and groin area.
Fibromyalgia
Fibromyalgia is a condition that causes pain all over the body (widespread musculoskeletal pain). It may be accompanied by fatigue, sleep problems, and emotional or mental distress. Patients with the condition may be more sensitive to pain than others. Studies have linked fibromyalgia to how the body amplifies painful sensations due to the brain’s ability to process pain signals. Usually, fibromyalgia occurs after physical trauma, infection, psychological stress or surgery."
Con
#4
"Emotional pain does not outweight emotional and physical pain and a painful death."
This is subjective. None of us can dictate what is worse in this case for any individual so this is invalid. Furthermore you just said "pain" in your premise(s) so don't try to split hairs now.
"Abortion only causes emotional pain to the parents."
This is untrue. The unborn feels pain and those who are against abortion receives pain, it pains them, grieves them. It's painful that you're denying the pain of others .
Some people go into depression, suffering and pain just living in pain everyday. To try to downplay that because it's your only refutation is obvious. I told you your premises were thin.
"Child birth causes emotional and physical pain to the child."
Well I guess pain can't be avoided, can it?
So therefore like I said, you have to come up with an ironclad exclusive premise.
"The second is much worse than the first."
Doesn't matter.
"I would rather have emotional pain of not having children, than have emotional pain and be burned alive or be crushed by car."
My point exactly, that's you. How does this override or supercede a death of my born or unborn child because they're both the same to me, that causes me grief into misery, miserable pain that I happen to never get over and take my own life ultimately after some years?
Each its own. There is no measuring of subjective painful experiences as it is personal so the area to not arbitrarily draw the line would just be at pain point blank. Only thing for your position with that premise is that it goes both ways .
So you can say abortion is good morally for alleviating pain just as well as I can say to not perform an abortion to bring forth a wanted life that would other wise bring pain physically mentally emotionally by extinguishing that life and that would be morally good.
You know people get so distraught and distressed, overwhelmed with emotional burden that they get physical sick and ill over this.
"Abortion only causes the first, the emotional pain, where child birth causes much more pain and also causes emotional pain."
Then the death of the child will cause more pain. We can play the more's and the worse than's, it's really irrelevant.
Nobody can dictate what a level of pain is in a personal experience. Everybody deals with it differently.
"Actually, with massive amounts of children being born, "could have" is guaranteed."
Even"guarantees" are not the same as facts. No speculations.
"You cannot guarantee the flip side, where negative outcomes are guaranteed."
I don't guarantee or promise anything. I look at the reality of people that grieve over their dead children.
"Even if 10 out of 1000 children felt no pain in life, there is no way for you to know if the child you would give birth to belongs in category of 10."
Do you know there's a such thing as a grieving parent over their child?
Again the facts the facts the facts. Now if your greatest argument is "well maybe there's a chance the parent won't feel bad over getting an abortion ", again you're stuck in speculation, "could haves" "could be's".
"Since you cannot know, the only moral thing to do is act by greatest possibility"
Still stuck in speculation. You arguing from an area where you can't know. Realize somethings can't be undone after being done. You can't bring people back to life in all cases.
"and since pain is the greatest possibility in life, and preventing pain is the most moral action, and abortion prevents any pain a child could have, it follows that abortion is the most moral action."
People still experience pain with abortion. Otherwise just about everyone whose sane would love abortion. But there's such argument and debate on this because pain is still present by commiting abortion.
Get another premise comrade.
"Life is the cause of pain. Thus, not creating life prevents pain."
Would you argue that suicide and genocide is how you say morally good?
"Abortion kills the fetus, therefore abortion is preventing fetus from feeling any pain in life."
In the circumstance that the fetus begins to become sentient thus feeling pain, would abortion still be as you say morally good?
"This not only saves fetus from pain, but indirectly saves humans and animals from pain. "
This is interesting. I don't believe animals non persons commit abortion . What is the disconnect in nature with the animals non persons get right but people get it wrong with this?
The unborn life feels pain and let me add this because I like to not go in circles. ABORTION SURVIVORS have pain and long life injuries from abortion attempts. It is not as you say morally good that these victims are in pain and suffering from the attempts. Not just commiting it but attempting abortions, not good as I word it.
"Fetus could have grown into abusive person. He would most likely drive a car, which results in many animals being crushed to death or left alive with broken bones. He would most likely be a meat eater, which results in a system where animals live crowded in pain, abused and then slaughtered. He might even decide to have children, which would further increase pain in the world. Giving birth to a child increases population, which contributes to overpopulation, causing struggle for resources, causing wars and further lowering life quality."
Your "could haves" are thrown out. It's just like saying killing a person for what they COULD DO. This is not why abortion is legalized.
"Since some people obviously commit suicide, it follows that their life was torture and in their case, that torture was worse than death.
In their example, they showed that they are ready to end themselves just to end pain.
However, lack of suicide does not mean that person wants to live. Many people suffer from depression and wish they werent born, but they dont kill themselves."
Abortion will cause depression and pain.
"But when having an early abortion, you can guarantee that child will never be in pain."
Doesn't necessarily negate the pain of others.
"Torturing a minority with great pain so that majority can be happy is immoral. Therefore, child birth which causes exactly that is immoral.
2. If I were to be burned alive for years but could prevent it by ending the entire world peacefully, I would rather have entire world end peacefully. Thats because great pain is infinitely times worse than simple lack of happiness.
If I had to be tortured with great pain for infinite amount of time, but could choose to stop it by ending the entire world peacefully, I would end the entire world peacefully.
In the world, there are plenty of people going through great pain all the time.
Since most people wouldnt want to be in unbearable pain, it follows that they shouldnt cause it to others."
Handsome opinion of yours.
"So stopping pain by stopping child birth is morally good"
According to you. There are mothers that are willing to embrace the pain not just in childbearing but all the ills and struggles and stresses in child rearing see.
But see your position and or worldview says what is painful is wrong. There are mothers that suffer, willing to suffer in pain to save a life. It's right to them and it's called love.
Do you think a mother that loves their child so much will not suffer pain for the welfare of their child? By your logic it wouldn't be right to save their child because of the pain that would occur in said circumstances. Your logic is just placing the circumstances in the womb.
The rest of what you had to say was more of your view of things and extra things about pain that don't help you or relate to the topic.
Now I can see you arguing more but filling up rounds with extraneous tangential information doesn't count.
Round 3
Pro
#5
"None of us can dictate what is worse in this case for any individual so this is invalid."
As explained, emotional pain and depression pale in comparison to having those plus being burned alive.
The unborn feels pain
As explained before, only if 20 weeks. Abortion can also be performed with medication so fetus doesnt feel pain. But again, abortion is not just saving fetus from years of pain, but also all its potential offsprings.
and those who are against abortion receives pain, it pains them, grieves them. It's painful that you're denying the pain of others .
Most people support abortion, so more people would be in pain if abortion was condemned.
Some people go into depression, suffering and pain just living in pain everyday.
And you want to extend that by producing more people?
Well I guess pain can't be avoided, can it?
The options are not: "pain" or "no pain".
The options are also: "reducing pain" and "increasing pain".
Increasing human population, by logic, increases the amount of possible pain.
Abortion, that reduces human population, reduces pain.
How does this override or supercede a death of my born or unborn child because they're both the same to me, that causes me grief into misery, miserable pain that I happen to never get over and take my own life ultimately after some years?
Because your pain would end with you. But if you reproduced, your child too would be in pain. And the child's child. And the child's child's child.
Also, your misery and taking your own life is less painful than many other deaths, such as being burned alive. So since your pain and reproduction line both end with you, it follows that amount of pain is reduced to 0 after you.
So your idea of reproducing into infinity guarantees infinite pain, where stopping the reproduction ends your line and ends pain with you and saves maybe hundred of people from pain, depending on how far your line would go if you reproduced.
Even"guarantees" are not the same as facts.
Guaranteed in this case is a fact that it will happen. Actually, believing that no pain will happen to anyone is pure delusion.
Would you argue that suicide and genocide is how you say morally good?
I am not allowed to promote suicide or genocide, nor is this the debate about those. But euthanasia is good solution to pain.
In the circumstance that the fetus begins to become sentient thus feeling pain, would abortion still be as you say morally good?
Yes. Abortion decreases population. One abortion prevents years and years of pain. Compared to that, abortion lasts less than an hour.
I don't believe animals non persons commit abortion
People eat animals, farm them and torture them on mass scale, and crush them by car, and rape them. So yes, when there are less people, animals are safer.
ABORTION SURVIVORS have pain and long life injuries from abortion attempts
Abortion survivors are statistically rare. You could even say 1 in a million.
Your "could haves" are thrown out. It's just like saying killing a person for what they COULD DO.
A belief that none of the "could haves" will happen is not only delusional, but there was no point in history when those "could haves" didnt happen.
Do you think a mother that loves their child so much will not suffer pain for the welfare of their child?
Thats the twisted world view of people who themselves are twisted. When you forcefully put someone in a world where pain is guaranteed, there is no love there. And if your pain is to be healed by causing pain to others, then we can already see that giving way to your infinite reproduction is just infinite pain.
If I had to live for 70 years and then die by being burned alive, I would rather not live at all.
Giving birth to children causes those children to be tortured in life, and in some cases, that torture is much worse than death.
To impose that on anyone is morally wrong. Child birth in some cases imposes that on the person being born.
Person is forced by others to endure unbearable pain. We can all agree that that is morally wrong, and since child birth contains that, child birth is morally wrong.
There is simply no way around this:
1. Forcing others to endure unbearable pain is wrong.
or
2. Forcing others to endure unbearable pain is not wrong.
If you were to choose to defend 2, you would only be able to defend it in cases where pain that is caused is lower than pain removed, or where your personal great pain is removed.
Child birth is neither, as emotional pain of not having children is not a significant pain, where child birth causes emotional pain and physical pain not only to child, but to child's child, and basically to the entire line of humans that come as a result.
Since abortion can always be performed early in pregnancy, then it causes no pain to fetus, but prevents all pain fetus would have if not aborted. Further, even late abortions can be performed in a way that causes no pain to the fetus.
"Utah code 76-7-308.5 requires any physician who performs an abortion on an unborn child of at least 20 weeks gestational age to administer an anesthetic or analgesic to eliminate pain to the fetus."
Further, since morally good follows a standard of reducing pain, and abortion, even if painful for an hour to the fetus at late pregnancy, prevents years and years of pain, because it not only prevents pain of one human and many animals, but also the entire line of humans that would otherwise follow as offsprings.
Since death and pain are guaranteed with child birth, abortion simply brings death instantly and saves the child from years of pain in life, and also saves child's child from pain, and the entire line that follows.
You may say that most people want to reproduce, but just because most other people are doing evil does not justify you if you do evil. You have a moral obligation to not do evil regardless of if others are doing evil or not. Causing more pain is evil.
Even if you claimed that some people are very happy, that would still make child birth immoral.
10 people torturing 1 person is immoral even if it makes those 10 people happy. Since child birth produces such effects, it follows that child birth is immoral.
Further, no one would agree to be in greatest happiness for 1 minute and then to be in greatest pain for 1 minute, and to keep repeating that forever.
This proves that equal time of greatest pain and greatest happiness does not balance out to be neutral, but becomes very undesirable and more painful, since pain is negatively valued more.
Some people dont choose to die when they are in pain, but just try to live hoping that pain will pass. But to force anyone to go through unbearable pain to uphold temporary life is immoral and there is no justification for it.
Example. You have to endure eternity in greatest pain. However, you can press the button to stop living and simply die and stop feeling pain forever. Everyone will press that button. This proves how life is worthless if filled with pain. This scenario applies to life as it exists today. Life is not a gift. Its torture. Parents have a moral duty not to cause suffering to the child. Best way to do that is by not giving birth to the child in the first place.
By law of morality: "Do not cause more pain than you remove". Giving birth causes more pain in the world than it removes. Abortion removes much more pain than it causes. By giving birth to a child, you are not saving a child from death. You are placing a child in the world where that child will suffer and die. More humans means more pain. Abortion is a painless way to prevent birth. It doesnt bother anyone much. It saves woman from birth pain.
By preventing the birth of human, it saves a human from being forced to live, suffer and die. Most deaths are painful. Dying from cancer can take days or months of severe pain. Dying in car accident is extremely painful. Being raped is horrible. Drowning is horrible. Most deaths are simply horrible. Having an abortion prevents a painful death of someone. It prevents all suffering that person would have to go through if given birth to. Many people have to work extremely difficult jobs that make their lives painful. Child birth is immoral by all standards. Pain is the worst thing that can happen to a person.
Even the lack of happiness is not worse than pain. This remains true under all circumstances, proving that preventing pain is the most important thing we can do. Statistically, there will always be the rate of people who will suffer in great pain if given birth to. We cannot say that we should subject people to great suffering so that some other people can be happy. That position would be sadistic and immoral, and would justify every crime on Earth.
But abortion also reduces parent's pain, as it allows parents to have more time and money for themselves, where having children plus having to work takes away almost entire day.
Abortion is also a solution to overpopulation, pollution, global warming, animal farming, overwork, lowering life standards and lowering wages, and resource shortage that would otherwise force people to fight wars for resources.
Best thing in the world is not happiness. If happiness was the best thing in the world, then lack of happiness would be the worst thing in the world or at least very bad.
But lack of happiness isnt even bad if there is no pain present. Its completely bearable.
Great pain, by comparison, is unbearable.
Child birth also causes pain to women.
"According to the World Health Organization (WHO), complications from pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death for girls and young women ages 15 to 19, and children ages 10 to 14 have a higher risk of health complications and death from pregnancy than adults. WHO has also found that the removal of restrictions on abortion results in the reduction of maternal mortality."
Con
#6
"As explained, emotional pain and depression pale in comparison to having those plus being burned alive."
Nothing compares to the pain from the death of my child. Do not dictate which is worse. Your point is thrown out .
"As explained before, only if 20 weeks. Abortion can also be performed with medication so fetus doesnt feel pain. But again, abortion is not just saving fetus from years of pain, but also all its potential offsprings."
Unborn still feels pain. You should of made the topic abortion before 20 weeks.
"Most people support abortion, so more people would be in pain if abortion was condemned."
I guess we just go back and forth on this "more stuff". Doesn't matter. The reality of abortion pains people period.
Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.
Your premises fail.
Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.
"And you want to extend that by producing more people?"
It has nothing to do with what I want. It's already extended by committing abortion. That's the point.
"The options are not: "pain" or "no pain".
The options are also: "reducing pain" and "increasing pain".
Increasing human population, by logic, increases the amount of possible pain.
Abortion, that reduces human population, reduces pain."
Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion.Pain still exists with abortion. Trying to decrease and exterminate some of the population brings about pain besides the fear you bring on people with these self destructive motions.
"Because your pain would end with you. "
You have to prove it would. I'm not the only one.
"But if you reproduced, your child too would be in pain. And the child's child. And the child's child's child."
You have to prove that.
"Also, your misery and taking your own life is less painful than many other deaths, such as being burned alive. "
Don't dictate my pain level. You have no right.
"So since your pain and reproduction line both end with you, it follows that amount of pain is reduced to 0 after you."
A claim yet unproven.
"So your idea of reproducing into infinity guarantees infinite pain, where stopping the reproduction ends your line and ends pain with you and saves maybe hundred of people from pain, depending on how far your line would go if you reproduced.'
Speculation . Not giving facts.
"Guaranteed in this case is a fact that it will happen. Actually, believing that no pain will happen to anyone is pure delusion."
"Guarantees" are not facts. They're promises of something that has NOT HAPPENED. That thing that has happened is a fact .
"I am not allowed to promote suicide or genocide, nor is this the debate about those. But euthanasia is good solution to pain."
Please answer this yes or no or concede.
Would you argue that suicide and genocide is how you say morally good?
"In the circumstance that the fetus begins to become sentient thus feeling pain, would abortion still be as you say morally good?
Yes. "
This contradicts your position.
"Abortion survivors are statistically rare. You could even say 1 in a million."
Every irrefutable point I give, you just throw a quantitative figure like it changes the fact that abortion brings pain.
"A belief that none of the "could haves" will happen is not only delusional, but there was no point in history when those "could haves" didnt happen."
What I know is you'll be convicted for killing somebody for what that somebody could do. That cell won't be a delusion to you hopefully.
"Thats the twisted world view of people who themselves are twisted. When you forcefully put someone in a world where pain is guaranteed, there is no love there. And if your pain is to be healed by causing pain to others, then we can already see that giving way to your infinite reproduction is just infinite pain."
Twisted worldview is killing ourselves. We're obviously living creatures. To think we live just to kill ourselves inside the womb and out , can't get no more backwards, twisted than that. Weak premise of pain. More to it than that and pure happiness and pleasure.
"If I had to live for 70 years and then die by being burned alive, I would rather not live at all.
Giving birth to children causes those children to be tortured in life, and in some cases, that torture is much worse than death.
To impose that on anyone is morally wrong. Child birth in some cases imposes that on the person being born.
Person is forced by others to endure unbearable pain. We can all agree that that is morally wrong, and since child birth contains that, child birth is morally wrong.
There is simply no way around this:
1. Forcing others to endure unbearable pain is wrong.
or
2. Forcing others to endure unbearable pain is not wrong.
If you were to choose to defend 2, you would only be able to defend it in cases where pain that is caused is lower than pain removed, or where your personal great pain is removed.
Child birth is neither, as emotional pain of not having children is not a significant pain, where child birth causes emotional pain and physical pain not only to child, but to child's child, and basically to the entire line of humans that come as a result."
Fine opinion of yours.
"Since abortion can always be performed early in pregnancy, then it causes no pain to fetus, but prevents all pain fetus would have if not aborted. Further, even late abortions can be performed in a way that causes no pain to the fetus."
Round and round we go. Can't deny the pain of others because abortion takes place.
"Further, since morally good follows a standard of reducing pain, and abortion, even if painful for an hour to the fetus at late pregnancy,"
Continue to contradict your position.
"Since death and pain are guaranteed with child birth....."
Continue the ramble.
"You have a moral obligation to not do evil regardless of if others are doing evil or not. Causing more pain is evil. "
Fine opinion you got here.
You go on several paragraphs with it.
So finally"Child birth also causes pain to women."
You're naive as ever thinking that motherhood and parenthood is supposed to be pain free. More to life than just thinking about happiness but that's your personal worldview or stance.
Round 4
Pro
#7
When child birth gets complicated, the woman sometimes dies in great pain.
Its immoral to force a person to experience great pain. That is much more immoral than simple painless death caused by early abortion.
As explained by example, great pain outweights desire to live. When pain is great enough, person desires to die.
If I was given the option to:
1. Burn alive for eternity
or
2. Die painlessly
We see that option 1 is not desirable at all, despite that it doesnt include death, where option 2 is more desirable, despite including death.
In fact, choosing to peacefully let people die is obviously morally better than forcing them to live in great pain for years.
Life is not worth living when you are burning alive.
I think morality that is focused on reducing pain is the best morality.
This is because pain is the worst thing in the world.
If I had a choice between:
1. Living for 100 years, but burn alive every day
2. Not live at all, die instantly
I would never choose option 1.
So we see that life is not worth living if person lives in unbearable pain every day.
So the morality system should mainly be focused on value of reducing pain, or not increasing pain.
Pain even outweighs happiness.
Lack of great pain is prefered over lack of great happiness.
This is meassured usually by the "desire to remove current state of things".
People who lack great happiness dont rush to remove that and achieve great happiness.
But people in great pain rush to remove great pain.
Increasing pain doesnt increase happiness but almost always decreases it, it follows that reducing pain is necessary for increasing happiness too.
The value of pain, life, or happiness, can be estimated.
Just imagine the situation you would want to avoid at all cost.
I would like to avoid great pain at all cost. In fact, great happiness is of less importance than lack of great pain.
Great pain usually includes lack of happiness.
Even with great happiness in life, the presence of great pain makes such life undesirable.
I think I have made a case for abortion being morally good, as it prevents further reproduction of your line and ends the pain in your line.
I know that this topic tends to upset people, but we can all agree that life filled with pain is not worth living.
It would be immoral to bring into existence the world where people burn alive, get sliced or crushed slowly.
There would be no justification for that. Yet child birth brings such world into existence, as every reproduction line of each human is one such world in which some people suffer greatly.
Con
#8
"Its immoral to force a person to experience great pain."
That's what you do killing the unborn. It's what you do to the Father of that unborn.
"I think I have made a case for abortion being morally good, as it prevents further reproduction of your line and ends the pain in your line."
You have done so very much out of opinion. You have acknowledged that pain is present with allowing abortions to occur.
"Premise 1: Pain is the worst thing in the world
Premise 2: Preventing the worst thing in the world from happening is morally the best action.
Conclusion: Preventing pain from happening is morally the best action."
Your premises were regarding pain. Just that. Not the amount, not the comparisons . At the core what is the most painful experience is all subjective to the individual experience.
"I know that this topic tends to upset people, but we can all agree that life filled with pain is not worth living."
I don't have to agree with that so there is no"we can all agree". This is an imposing dogmatic assessment.
"There would be no justification for that. Yet child birth brings such world into existence, as every reproduction line of each human is one such world in which some people suffer greatly."
Coming off nihilistic where life does not have value to the point that we're so willing to embrace the idea of self extermination through abortion. People say you don't have a right to taking so much life when you didn't create it.
It's not something to play with it, rearrange it as art or play doe. Again we apparently are here to live. So why do so many have the ideology to easily destroy ourselves? Oh because of pain. It's more to life than just happiness. As pain serves a constructive purpose and a very necessary part to life. It alerts us, let's us know when we've done something wrong with our health and anywhere else in life.
Don't say away with what helps us learn , make progress and improve ourselves. If you don't know the meaning of pain, your barely know the meaning of life.
Aside from that, you've most likely been brainwashed with running away from building life, facing pain to help you overcome to continue to build upon life running away from that, running away from pain to destroy everything is the thought process of suicidal destruction.
You were given life to live period.
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Isn't this a bit too much for Mall?
You said you would debate abortion. Does this debate suit you?