Hello Korea, I would first like to thank you for coming for this civil discussion and I hope it is productive and may perhaps change your mind.
The burden of proof of the atheist
First of all, I would like to point out the burden of proof that Korea has. I'm going to give 5 arguments for the existence of God, and Korea has to tear down each argument and then build an argument against God to prove that God does not exist, otherwise we are left with agnosticism, which neither proves nor disproves God. During the arguments I provide, I ask Korea to identify which premises he/she might disagree with and why he/she disagrees with them.
Argument 1: The cosmological argument
1 - Everything that exists has a cause, either found in a external cause or by the necessity of its own nature
2 - If the universe has a cause, that cause is God
3 - The universe exists
Therefore:
4 - the cause of the universe is God
5 - God exists
So this argument is extremely simple, yet powerful and problematic for atheism. I feel the need to support premise 2 and why it would point to God. When we speak of the universe, we speak of space, time, and matter. And when the universe was created, so was space, time, and matter. So it follows that whatever caused the universe to come into existence is space-less, timeless, non-physical, and immaterial. This cause must also be immensely powerful because it must have been powerful enough to create space and time, a 4D construct.
Argument 2: The improbability of atheism
This argument does not follow any premises, but rather shows how improbable atheism is. There are several events that had to happen to create the universe as we know it that were extremely unlikely, yet they happened. This points to an intelligent & personal cause. [2]
1: If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 10^60, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible.
2: Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible.
3: Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 10^40, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible.
4: If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons, or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible.
5: The chances of evolution resulting in humans were 1 in 10 to the power of 40000. That's a 1 followed by 40,000 0s, yet it happened; isn't that miraculous? [2]
quote for the evolution number:
"...life cannot have had a random beginning...The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10 to the 40,000power, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court....The enormous information content of even the simplest living systems...cannot in our view be generated by what are often called "natural" processes...For life to have originated on the Earth it would be necessary that quite explicit instruction should have been provided for its assembly...There is no way in which we can expect to avoid the need for information, no way in which we can simply get by with a bigger and better organic soup, as we ourselves hoped might be possible a year or two ago."
Believing that the universe happened by pure chance is quite irrational and can be reasonably dismissed with the principle of parsimony.
I would also like to build on the previous descriptors of the cause that I provided earlier. It must be intelligent as well as personal because it must have chosen to create, it's unreasonable to say this happened by accident. So this is the cause of the universe:
non-physical
immaterial
space-less
time-less
immensely powerful
intelligent
personal creator of the universe.
This is the traditional understanding of god & god is the only thing that can fit this description.
Argument 3: The transcendental cause of the laws of thought
1 - The cause of the laws of logic existing is God
2 - The laws of logic exist
3 -God is the cause of the laws of logic.
In order to think rationally you must use the laws of thought. [3] In order for your world view to be rational you must be able to account for the laws of logic, otherwise how did you come to that conclusion? Well science pre-supposes the laws of logic so to use science to prove the laws of logic would be circular reasoning. Therefore its impossible to prove the laws of logic empirically so therefore it must be transcendental, which is what a god is.. Think of it as arguing against the existence of air, you must use air to argue against the existence of air, which is absolutely absurd. Similarly the atheist must be wrong because he's using a principle of God to disprove God
Argument 4: The ontological argument
1 - Its possible that a Maximally Great Being, namely god exists
2 - Actually existing makes something greater than if that same something existed in the mind
3 - A Maximally Great Being posses all the properties that are considered great
4 - A Maximally Great Being therefore posses the quality of existing
5 - A Maximally Great being exists, therefore god exists.
The ontological argument attempts to prove God based on the premise that God is maximally great. For example, the only thing greater than a "maximally great" island in your mind is a "maximally great" island that is real. Therefore, if God is maximally great, He would exist because He is maximally great., therefore posses the all the qualities of being great.
Argument 5: The resurrection of Jesus.
1) If the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth happened, then it must have been from God.
2) The resurrection happened.
3) God is real.
I first feel the need to justify the existence of Jesus of Nazareth; there are multiple writers from the time of Jesus who talk of him and Christians.
The first non-Christian author to mention Jesus is thought to be the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism in about the year 93, the famous Antiquities of the Jews
In the Antiquities, Josephus writes: [4]
Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he [Ananus] assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned
Scholars point to the Roman historian Tacitus for confirmation that the crucifixion of Jesus actually took place. In his
Annals, he records the death of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilate: [
5]
Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
It is also worth mentioning what Tacitus wrote about the torture of Christians. [5]
Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
My point is, why would you lie about a resurrection if you got tortured for it and got nothing in return? This isn't some ill-conceived spaghetti monster; this suggests that the people who claimed to see the resurrection, genuinely believed in it. If these people were mistaken they would've been easily corrected by being shown the body of Christ.
sources:
[1] - THE FINE-TUNING DESIGN ARGUMENT By Robin Collins From Reason for the Hope Within
[2] - Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space [Aldine House, 33 Welbeck
Street, London W1M 8LX: J.M. Dent & Sons, 1981), p. 148, 24,150,30,31).
Eh sure, but dont make it so strict with rules. I am terrible at following rules.
I forgive ya man dw about it. you want to continue this debate after the next phase? I could make another debate with 10 rounds.
I am sorry 🥺
I didnt read description ☹
Hope you can forgive me one day 🤗
You were suppose to respond to my rebuttal in the next round, not this one.
I am just debating the side which was offered, and that is "God doesnt exist". So no, I am not allowed to be uncertain in this debate.
Sorry Willy I didn’t see this, the definition me and Korea are going to cover is a Christian god, so all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, etc.
Hello there Korea, I want to clarify your stance on this. Are you a gnostic atheist(meaning you have evidence god doesn’t exist) or a agnostic atheist meaning your uncertain?
I’m personally a gnostic theist and I’ll will be debating this from a Christian perspective
What’s the set definition for god in this debate?