Instigator / Pro
0
1264
rating
357
debates
39.64%
won
Topic
#4799
In most cases, abortion should be legal
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 20,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
0
1420
rating
396
debates
43.94%
won
Description
Definitions
Abortion - Termination of human pregnancy by killing a fetus, termination which is desired by the pregnant woman
Round 1
Topic
In most cases, abortion should be legal
Introduction
In this debate, we will talk about the importance of abortion and the purpose it serves in the democratic world, and the rights of women which law should support.
Definitions
Abortion - Termination of human pregnancy by killing a fetus, termination which is desired by the pregnant woman
Arguments
1. Banning abortion bans contraception and creates confusion
If someone uses a condom during sex, it will prevent the existence of a child. If someone has an abortion, it will prevent the existence of a child. There is no significant difference between using a condom and having an abortion, that would make one of these more morally wrong. As long as we hold that life is most important, preventing child's life from existing is wrong if done by action of putting on a condom or if done by action of having an abortion.
Any action that prevents child's life from existing would be wrong. Child's life would be important and should exist.
Therefore, any ban on abortion would soon result in ban on contraception and even more endangerment of women's rights.
However, when we take position that fetus's life is not important enough to be gifted existence at the expense of woman's health and at the expense of society, that fetus should not be allowed to cause pain to the woman, we get a consistent system that protects women in society. When we take the position of bodily autonomy along with many other positions I will list in this debate, we get a much better system for all. Personhood should never be based on just one reason, but on many reasons combined. That system was proven to work in practice before. Abortion ban never worked anywhere.
2. Personhood
Only if we arbitrarily assign personhood to a fetus using arbitrary reasons, we would have a difference. That difference would be arbitrary difference.
However, it is much better to assign personhood at birth. This enables better birth control along with being capable of preventing birth of more humans in a way that does not cause great pain to anyone, but prevents great pain. Most abortions are done in early pregnancy, where fetus simply cannot be assigned personhood of equal importance as the born baby. Born baby is more developed, as born baby already passed the point of development which fetus didnt. Fetus is much less likely to survive than a born baby, which means that born baby has greater value. We will go through many reasons why assigning personhood at birth is much better than assigning it at conception, and much more considerate of the circumstances of life and the reality which is life.
3. Abortion helps with overpopulation
Abortion helps to reduce the amount of humans on Earth in a way that is safe, humane and doesnt harm humans who were already born, and prevents harm to those who would, if given birth to, suffer and die, drain planet's resources and cause more pollution and more waste. It is not justified to give birth to more humans and endanger the already existing ones. Planet's resources are limited. There is a point where there is too much human life on Earth. We are at that point. It is no longer good to produce more humans.
4. Abortion supports autonomy of woman's body
Fetus depends upon woman's body. Woman's body does not depend upon a fetus. Woman created the fetus. The only reason why fetus exists is due to woman's action of creating it. Woman has a right to remove fetus from her body to prevent further expense of her body. Fetus exists at the expense of woman's body. Fetus does not have autonomy of its own, as it exists due to the expense of someone else, while someone else does not exist due to the expense of a fetus. Fetus does not support anyone's existence, but others support it's existence. This support is not mandatory, as no one has duty to support the existence of someone else at own expense. There is no autonomy if we have obligation to serve others. Fetus only exists due to woman creating it. To say that woman has obligation to serve it even more than that is a violation of woman's autonomy. Woman owns her own body. Fetus has no right to woman's body for the purpose of creating human life, any more than a rapist would have a right to woman's body for the purpose of impregnating her. Woman didnt intend to create that fetus. The creation of a fetus was a collateral damage from sex. Woman allowing or tolerating a fetus to use her body for some time is not in any way an obligation to extend that indefinitely. Such fetus has no right to cause damage to woman's autonomy anymore. Right to life does not mean right to use someone else's body.
5. Abortion reduces the amount of pain in the world
Example. You have to endure eternity in greatest pain. However, you can press the button to stop living and simply die and stop feeling pain forever.
Everyone will press that button. This proves how life is worthless if filled with pain.
This scenario applies to life as it exists today. Life is not a gift. Its torture.
Parents have a moral duty not to cause suffering to the child. Best way to do that is by not giving birth to the child in the first place.
By law of morality: "Do not cause more pain than you remove". Giving birth causes more pain in the world than it removes. Abortion removes much more pain than it causes. By giving birth to a child, you are not saving a child from death. You are placing a child in the world where that child will suffer and die.
More humans means more pain. Abortion is a painless way to prevent birth. It doesnt bother anyone much. It saves woman from birth pain. By preventing the birth of human, it saves a human from being forced to live, suffer and die.
Most deaths are painful. Dying from cancer can take days of severe pain. Dying in car accident is extremely painful. Being raped is horrible. Drowning is horrible. Most deaths are simply horrible. Having an abortion prevents a painful death of someone. It prevents all suffering that person would have to go through if given birth to. Many people have to work extremely difficult jobs that make their lives painful.
Child birth is immoral by all standards. Pain is the worst thing that can happen to a person. Even the lack of happiness is not worse than pain. This remains true under all circumstances, proving that preventing pain is the most important thing we can do.
Statistically, there will always be the rate of people who will suffer in great pain if given birth to.
We cannot say that we should subject people to great suffering so that some other people can be happy. That position would be sadistic and immoral, and would justify every crime on Earth.
6. Banning abortions doesnt stop most abortions
Abortion ban has little to no effect on reducing abortion rates. In countries where abortions are banned, abortions are still widely practiced, even more common than in countries where abortions are legal. It doesnt seem to stop women from seeking abortions. Governments also dont care enough to try to stop illegal abortions. Even if they did care, they wouldnt be able to do it as private abortions keep existing due to doctors earning lots of money from them. Abortion ban is impossible to enforce, as pregnant woman can either get abortion illegally, or go to other country where abortion is legal and have abortion there. This causes money to flow out of a country that bans abortions, further increasing poverty in countries that ban abortions.
7. Banning abortion endangers health of women and causes women to suffer and die
Banning abortions causes women to take risks and perform unsafe abortions. Banning abortions makes abortions much less safe. This places women at risk of death or severe health problem. Women suffer more if they are forced to get pregnant, forced to go through birth pains, forced to risk their lives and forced to raise the child they didnt want. It reduces women to property valued by its utility for others.
As legal abortions became widely available, the numbers of women treated for septic abortion complications in emergency rooms and hospitals decreased markedly.
Fetus is the point of development that endangers woman's health the most if it allows to continue. It endangers woman's life and causes pain more than any other point of development.
8. Banning abortions increases prison population
Banning abortions means that anyone caught doing the banned action would end up in prison. This would endanger their life, their rights and would increase their pain.
9. Banning abortions increases number of unwanted children and child abuse in the world
Foster care is a horrible place that produces criminals. Anyone arguing that it is better for the child to be in foster care is terribly misled. Children in foster care are often abused. They lack basic relationships. Banning abortions increases child abuse and the neglect of children. Banning abortions, if it reduces abortions, it increases number of unwanted children that parents will not care about. It increases crime and the number of criminals, as well as number of victims.
10. Abortions reduce poverty and increases happiness
If woman has an abortion, she doesnt need to provide for the child for 18 years, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Therefore, she will have more income for herself to increase her own happiness and work on herself, as opposed to her happiness being destroyed by being forced to raise a child she never wanted. There would be more poverty, as poor families would have difficulty providing for all children and each child would have less income being spent on that child individually.
11. Abortion is self-defense
People have right to self-defense. Woman has a right to defend her life and end the pregnancy. Pregnancy endangers woman's life much more than abortion does. To say that people have no right to self-defense is nonsense. It is like me giving someone food which he needs to live, and then he starts endangering my life and causing me pain. It is even worse than this in case of pregnancy, since fetus has no same or equal value as born baby, nor can fetus survive without a woman where baby can survive without a woman by being cared for by others, nor does born baby guarantee to be causing pain to the woman. Fetus is an obvious greater threat to woman's life, as it guarantees her pain and adds to the endangerment of her life much more.
12. Abortion is a democratic right
It is most important that abortions in most cases are legal. Since we live in a democracy, will of majority is the most important. Laws should reflect the opinion of the majority. Most people agree that abortions in most cases should be legal. Banning abortions would be undemocratic tyranny.
13. Abortion makes person morally right
Person is saved from personal responsibility of causing pain or bringing rapists into this world if a person has an abortion. If person doesnt bring more humans into existence, such person doesnt cause any pain that would be caused by action of bringing more humans into existence. Statistically, there is always a rate of rapists, murderers, abusers, those who torture others and those who get tortured by others, among the population that is given birth to.
14. Banning abortion violates the principle of justice
Justice says: What is banned for one is banned for all. Men dont endanger their life as a consequence of sex, and dont have to go through pains of child birth as a result of sex. Therefore, women also should not have to go through losing their lives and experiencing birth pains because of sex. Women should not be banned from life and from safety from pain when they have sex.
15. Banning abortion in most cases leads to abortion ban in cases of rape, abuse, incest and unintentional pregnancies
Assigning personhood before birth of a person brings many problems to victims of rape or abuse. There is simply no way to argue that abortion is murder of a child, and then to argue that woman who is raped has a right to abortion, that woman who is raped has a right to murder her child. Same applies for unintended pregnancies where contraception failed, and for pregnant teenage girls, and for cases of incest. They would all be denied of abortion.
16. Banning abortion affects those who had a miscarriage, or pregnancies where fetus died or will die, or cases where pregnancy endangers woman's life greatly
Women who have miscarriage would be judged. Miscarriage is sometimes very similar to abortion. If abortion is banned, women will be prevented from getting abortion in cases where fetus will die. Pregnancies where fetus died or will die require the removal of a fetus. Abortion ban makes this more difficult, as woman needs an approval from doctor. An approval she might not get. In cases where pregnancy endangers woman's life, she will not have the right to abortion, as she wont be the one making decision. She will need an approval, which she would be denied of.
17. Banning abortion creates judgment
Women will be condemned for having an abortion. They will be called evil and murderers. This will create a hostile environment for those women. It will increase their depression and suicide rate. It would also create fights in the family, and cause divisions within family.
18. Banning abortion affects poor people the most
When abortion is banned, rich will still have access to quality abortions. They will be able to travel to another country where abortion is legal. They will also be able to afford best illegal service in their own country. Poor people will not. Poor people will be forced to resort to cheapest illegal local abortions that are much less safe. Those cheaper abortions will still be more expensive than what abortions would cost if abortions were legal in that place. This makes poor people poorer and endangers their health, and allows private doctors to profit from poor people.
19. Banning abortion means forced pregnancies
Banning abortions forces pregnancy on women, and forces them to give birth. Woman should not be forced to get pregnant. Same way, woman should not be forced to give birth.
Banning abortion means that women in abusive relationships could be forced to get pregnant, and then be denied of safe abortion, or be denied of any abortion and forced to give birth and forced to raise a child she never wanted and is not at fault for having. People should not be forced to reproduce. Reproduction is a decision that should be made by individual and not be forced upon that individual. If you are against forcing people to reproduce, you cannot be against abortions at the same time.
20. Banning abortion produces more disabled children
If we assume that abortion ban would actually decrease the number of abortions, it then would produce more disabled children. This would create problems at the expense of entire society. Disabled children, who would otherwise be aborted, now have to be provided at the expense of society and at the expense of healthy children.
21. Abortion creates a healthier society
By aborting fetuses that have health issues and obvious disabilities, their suffering is prevented. However, in their place can come healthier fetuses that develop into healthy persons, improving an overall health in society.
22. Abortion ban violates privacy
To who does woman choose to give her body is her private matter. Government violating people's privacy usually creates a slippery slope where every previous violation is the reason for the next. Today, they ban abortions. Next day they ban contraceptions. Day after that they ban sex outside of marriage. Then they ban divorce, trans surgeries. It would be nonsense and naive to say that the people who want to ban abortions will stop at just that. Their ideology goes further.
23. Legalizing abortions helps children
Women who are forced to give birth when they are not ready or when they are too young or both will not be able to pursue education. They will also be less experienced and less willing, which will diminish their ability to raise a child.
If a woman gives birth to a child when she is ready to give birth and raise a child, when she has more experience, when she is more educated, that will allow the child to grow in most optimal environment, greatly increasing the chances of that child having a good life, reducing the chance of abuse and neglect.
24. Fetus is much less sentient than a human baby
Fetus in early pregnancy feels no pain. It has no discomfort of any kind. It has no senses. It feels nothing. It knows nothing. There is no consciousness of any kind during early pregnancy. It is just like semen, and we dont say that putting on a condom is morally wrong if it prevents the creation of a conscious child by preventing semen to develop further. Personhood cannot be equal for fetus and for born baby. Value of a fetus in early pregnancy is much closer to the value of semen than to the value of born baby.
25. Circumstances are always different
It is impossible for the government in most cases to know circumstances better than woman does. It is impossible for the government in most cases to make better decision than that woman would. Every pregnancy happens under different circumstances. The woman is much more familiar with those circumstances.
26. Abortion ban will affect women with medical conditions
Some women are much more affected by pregnancy due to poor health. Giving birth would not only be worse for them than it would be for healthy women, but they would not be as capable of raising children.
27. Abortion ban would attack everyone's most basic rights
The fundamental right of every human is to own his body. If this right is violated, if others are capable of making decisions for his body, he no longer owns his body. He no longer has autonomy, but becomes property of utility for others. He is not an end, but means to an end. He can be forced to donate kidneys for the greater good of others. He can be forcefully conscripted for the military. Society that lives by destroying freedom is better not to live at all. Abortion ban is one step further towards violating individual's autonomy. It would be naive to think that it will be the last.
28. Some parents dont have enough money to raise children. They need abortions to be legal.
Those children would be thrown into foster care, where they would be neglected and abused. They would suffer a lot in life. Abortion would prevent such suffering, and help build a society where there is less suffering. It is not moral to condemn children to a life of pain and poverty.
29. People are driven to have sex by urges. They should not be punished for that.
Most people suffer when not having sex. People cannot give up upon that. Punishing people for having sex by forcing them into difficult, painful and dangerous situations is not moral. It is forcing people to choose between two pains, and leaves them with no option to be saved from pain. Since torturing people is morally wrong, and banning abortion causes torture, it follows that banning abortion is morally wrong.
30. To save a born baby or to save a fetus
If being forced to choose who to save, moral people would in great majority of cases choose to save a born baby over a fetus. This proves that born baby has greater value than a fetus.
Conclusion
In most cases, abortion should be legal. Action that causes more harm than good should never be done. Banning abortion causes much more harm than good. Due to all the reasons listed in this debate, fetus should not have personhood of equal importance as born baby. There is a strong case that granting fetus personhood would cause lots of harm to everyone, that personhood of a fetus would be less valuable than personhood of a born baby in great majority of cases, and that personhood of a fetus would not allow a fetus to live at the expense of someone else, and that giving personhood to fetus would harm born humans.
I want to first give thanks to you for this interaction once again. I believe you have become my closest comrade on this site .
Basically what I intend to do in this debate is very straightforward and digestible .
I'm going to show that you cannot have one without the other. To do so would be paradoxical which cancels out the "pro abortion" or "mostly pro abortion" position. Being it that, a society that is not paradoxical would vote pro life all the way. Furthermore giving its government a passing of laws that would reflect that. This would mean abortion should be illegal in most cases because a society would exist to reflect the majority vote against abortion. Just like a mirrored reflection. What you show in it is what you see reflected back out . I hope this is all clear enough.
Now just about every point the opposing side brought up I will address in the manner of one cannot exist without the other. Supporting a baby to live and not a fetus is antithetical. Not supporting a fetus,human, person, baby , whatever a mother may call it inside her womb not to live is antithetical when supporting a baby to live.
Just think of it. A woman that regards what's in her stomach or womb her baby girl, her baby boy. That baby that is born a baby is just the same before it is delivered .
That baby grows and grows and matures. It didn't start living after birth. It started before. So trying to draw a line is arbitrary and controversial. It's not consistent and is erroneous . It is ultimately conflicting and self negating trying to draw a line. The line that is drawn by the law is just a legal decision but not one based on scientific biological input .
" Banning abortion bans contraception and creates confusion"
There's confusion because of the antithetical nature that you may have already alluded to. Abortion is birth control that's true. So to avoid the confusion created by the paradox, if you're going to ban abortion, ban birth control period.
I think we agree here. Have it one way or the other. As I go further with the points you presented, it is consistent to do away with contraception, abortion included.
"Personhood"
A baby is a person outside the womb. A baby is a person being delivered. A baby is that just before delivery. It is a person just before delivery. There is no point in progression to classify personhood except by a legal judgment. Besides that it's arbitrary. On top of that it is a legal loophole. The reality is , it is life. Now when does life start?
A baby or grown person has life and when and where did their life start?
There is no place that is justified of taking it away no matter which point you may arbitrarily classify as a starting point.
"Abortion helps with overpopulation"
This is completely antithetical. Again a legal loophole is used to justify controlling a population. It is illegal to control population by genocide, concentration camps or extermination. Instead of taking away lives that are grown or close to it , take away those same lives at their first stage of cellular reproduction. Same difference and is antithetical.
Take away lives just "starting out". When is exactly "starting out"?
"Abortion supports autonomy of woman's body"
Abortion supports autonomy of woman's body while taking away another's from inside her's what could be one that grows up to be a woman. That's double fold doing it in advance.
" Abortion reduces the amount of pain in the world"
Abortion creates pain for the unborn as well as the ones that regret murdering their unborn children.
"Banning abortions doesnt stop most abortions"
With murder being illegal in general doesn't stop murderers from murdering but the law doesn't appear to give in.
" Banning abortion endangers health of women and causes women to suffer and die"
Abortions are dangerous to those that would or could have lived but are now dead. There are abortion survivors, women that have damaged health on account of attempted murder or the technical term abortion.
As you can see, every point made from the opposing side can be paired with a counter equivalent. That's because what's outside the womb is connected from what came from the inside. There is no one without the other. There is no law with a biological basis to reflect different but it makes legal technical declarations on account of the paradoxical mindset of a society. With a non paradoxical society a government would reflect that. Which would cause the law to be what it should be. A reflection of a government, the people.
"Banning abortions increases prison population"
I guess I can go either way on this because it's actually a good thing. It either deters the crime or gives punishment due justice for murder. We can view this either way.
"Banning abortions increases number of unwanted children and child abuse in the world"
You can have many people that want children and care for them properly. These are typically people that can't have children of their own.
"Abortions reduce poverty and increases happiness"
Will still have poverty and poverty stricken families. We can't allow killing of children to save on expenses. Of course people are very happy having children. They have a field day of fun doing baby showers.
"Abortion is self-defense"
This may be the exception which IS NOT MOST cases. Like it's not most cases that someone actually has to defend themselves from a child.
"Abortion is a democratic right"
Happenstance and contingent.
"Abortion makes person morally right"
Murder of someone isn't.
"Banning abortion violates the principle of justice"
Murder violates it.
"Banning abortion in most cases leads to abortion ban in cases of rape, abuse, incest and unintentional pregnancies"
My father raped my mother. I'm still glad I'm alive. No matter the case, I want my life.
"16. Banning abortion affects those who had a miscarriage, or pregnancies where fetus died or will die, or cases where pregnancy endangers woman's life greatly"
Can't kill someone who's already dead.
"Banning abortion creates judgment"
Like judgment on murder.
"Banning abortion affects poor people the most"
Don't nearly kill yourself trying to kill children . We have no evidence that our lives are meant to be taken for such convenient causes.
"Banning abortion means forced pregnancies"
A point to make now is everybody, stop having sex. No children. Stop engaging in sex. Have the self control and avoid all this mess. Society is so backwards and antithetical.
"Banning abortion produces more disabled children"
Please don't kill me just because of my disability. I may be blind but I can sing Georgia on my mind, hit the road jack, play piano, play the sax. I can sing superstitious. I still have equivalent value.
"Abortion creates a healthier society"
Non abortion creates a healthier, even healthier one.
"Abortion ban violates privacy"
I'm glad my privacy wasn't violated or else I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here debating. Come on.
"Legalizing abortions helps children"
Not legalizing abortion helps the pregnancy come to full term in turn helps the maturity into childhood thus helping the child.
"Fetus is much less sentient than a human baby"
Just because I don't feel any pain or sense of awareness, don't kill me.
"Circumstances are always different"
Circumstance of harm, danger and murder, the government will only need to know about .
"Abortion ban will affect women with medical conditions"
Take responsibility and keep them legs closed ladies. Don't copout on the consequences afterwards.
"Abortion ban would attack everyone's most basic rights"
Including the unborn.
"Some parents dont have enough money to raise children. They need abortions to be legal."
A point to make now is everybody, stop having sex. No children. Stop engaging in sex. Have the self control and avoid all this mess. Society is so backwards and antithetical.
"People are driven to have sex by urges. They should not be punished for that."
Have self control or you will be punished. Have self control not to rape anyone or you will be punished presumably if you don't get off as not guilty. Have the self control, be proactive, take responsibility thinking before you lay down.
"To save a born baby or to save a fetus"
An excellent point most of all. There's no either or , or one without the other to sum up all this.
Due to the number of points, I couldn't expound much where it could of been useful on statements that may be unsubstantial.
Five to six points could have sufficed from the opposing side.
Round 2
Thank you for accepting the debate. I feel like there is always a lot to discuss about topics like these.
We dont always reach agreement, but if we did, then there would be nothing left to debate anymore.
Arguments
31. People have a right to deny medical treatment
Person can reject medications, surgeries and treatments even when doing so is harmful for that person. This argument supports the bodily autonomy argument. People can do whatever they want with their bodies, and reproduction cannot be forced upon an individual.
32. If abortions are banned, people are more likely to be denied of euthanasia
When life is suffering, it is better to die. However, the same people who want to ban abortions are those who want to ban euthanasia and deny the right of people to painless death.
Rebuttals
Basically what I intend to do in this debate is very straightforward and digestible .I'm going to show that you cannot have one without the other. To do so would be paradoxical which cancels out the "pro abortion" or "mostly pro abortion" position. Being it that, a society that is not paradoxical would vote pro life all the way. Furthermore giving its government a passing of laws that would reflect that. This would mean abortion should be illegal in most cases because a society would exist to reflect the majority vote against abortion. Just like a mirrored reflection. What you show in it is what you see reflected back out . I hope this is all clear enough.
Banning abortion is bad for society. It costs more resources, and doesnt prevent most abortions. Plus, we are currently dealing with overpopulation. Abortion being legal saves women's lives from pain, and it prevents unwanted children from being subjected to abuse.
Now just about every point the opposing side brought up I will address in the manner of one cannot exist without the other. Supporting a baby to live and not a fetus is antithetical. Not supporting a fetus,human, person, baby , whatever a mother may call it inside her womb not to live is antithetical when supporting a baby to live.
This is not about the morality of abortion itself. It is to point out that born baby has greater value than a fetus. Our society should not prioritize fetuses over born humans.
Just think of it. A woman that regards what's in her stomach or womb her baby girl, her baby boy. That baby that is born a baby is just the same before it is delivered .That baby grows and grows and matures. It didn't start living after birth. It started before. So trying to draw a line is arbitrary and controversial. It's not consistent and is erroneous . It is ultimately conflicting and self negating trying to draw a line. The line that is drawn by the law is just a legal decision but not one based on scientific biological input .
I will concede that baby is indeed alive in the womb. However, people have much less problems with killing baby in the womb than killing baby outside womb. So the line is already drawn in people's minds. In most cases, abortion is performed in the first three months. At that point, fetus is very different from a born baby. It does not even feel pain nor does it think, nor does it see or feel the world.
A baby is a person outside the womb. A baby is a person being delivered. A baby is that just before delivery. It is a person just before delivery. There is no point in progression to classify personhood except by a legal judgment. Besides that it's arbitrary. On top of that it is a legal loophole. The reality is , it is life. Now when does life start?A baby or grown person has life and when and where did their life start?There is no place that is justified of taking it away no matter which point you may arbitrarily classify as a starting point.
Choosing point right after birth to assign personhood helps us solve many problems. It ensures that we protect the born children, who are more important. It helps with overpopulation and resources. People have much less moral problems with abortion than with murder. It also protects autonomy of a woman.
This is completely antithetical. Again a legal loophole is used to justify controlling a population. It is illegal to control population by genocide, concentration camps or extermination. Instead of taking away lives that are grown or close to it , take away those same lives at their first stage of cellular reproduction. Same difference and is antithetical.Take away lives just "starting out". When is exactly "starting out"?
Abortion is different from genocide in a sense that abortion benefits our society much more. Genocide would hurt much more, as born, sentient people would be in pain. It would also violate autonomy, create chaos. In case of abortion, there is no violation of autonomy. There is much less pain. The resources are saved more. Abortions happen in similar numbers anyway, when legal and when illegal. Making them legal makes them safer for women. Comparison to genocide is invalid because born person has greater value than a fetus. Also, most people are morally okay with abortions, where genocide would start a war.
Abortion supports autonomy of woman's body while taking away another's from inside her's what could be one that grows up to be a woman. That's double fold doing it in advance
Fetus in the womb violates woman's autonomy. No person gets to violate the bodily autonomy of other person. You cannot live on someone else's expense of body. Woman simply refuses to further provide her body for the fetus.
Abortion creates pain for the unborn as well as the ones that regret murdering their unborn children
I can partially agree that it can cause some pain to the mother. However, fetus doesnt feel pain. Plus, living the life as unwanted child is simply not good.
With murder being illegal in general doesn't stop murderers from murdering but the law doesn't appear to give in.
There are plenty of differences between murder and abortion. The two are not comparable. The point is that abortion ban is impossible to enforce to the point where its not worthy to ban abortion.
Abortions are dangerous to those that would or could have lived but are now dead. There are abortion survivors, women that have damaged health on account of attempted murder or the technical term abortion.As you can see, every point made from the opposing side can be paired with a counter equivalent. That's because what's outside the womb is connected from what came from the inside. There is no one without the other. There is no law with a biological basis to reflect different but it makes legal technical declarations on account of the paradoxical mindset of a society. With a non paradoxical society a government would reflect that. Which would cause the law to be what it should be. A reflection of a government, the people.
Child birth is much more dangerous than abortion. Also, there is a point where we can no longer afford an increase in population and we are at that point.
I guess I can go either way on this because it's actually a good thing. It either deters the crime or gives punishment due justice for murder. We can view this either way.
It gives punishment, yes. It deters, not so much. However, the punishment is simply not worthy for society. It reduces society's resources, while punishing those who help with overpopulation.
You can have many people that want children and care for them properly. These are typically people that can't have children of their own.
We already have enough problems in foster care.
Will still have poverty and poverty stricken families. We can't allow killing of children to save on expenses. Of course people are very happy having children. They have a field day of fun doing baby showers
As explained, born children have greater value than unborn children. Unborn children who are aborted arent even valued by their own mothers. Born child passed the point of development of a fetus. However, fetus did not pass the point of development of a born child. Fetus is more likely to die than born child is. Hence, less value. The care for the fetus is not even close to care for born child. To put it simply, people have least problem with killing a fetus. No one would kill a 4yo to save a fetus. Everyone would kill a fetus to save a 4yo. Abortion carries many benefits for society to the point where fetus cannot be given personhood.
This may be the exception which IS NOT MOST cases. Like it's not most cases that someone actually has to defend themselves from a child
There is always a greater risk of death from child birth. You cannot guarantee that child birth will go well.
My father raped my mother. I'm still glad I'm alive. No matter the case, I want my life
We cannot afford more life on Earth. Sure, most people are glad to be alive. It doesnt justify breeding to the point where so few resources are left that people have to either starve, either fight to the death over whats left.
A point to make now is everybody, stop having sex. No children. Stop engaging in sex. Have the self control and avoid all this mess. Society is so backwards and antithetical
Not having sex is good, however painful.
Please don't kill me just because of my disability. I may be blind but I can sing Georgia on my mind, hit the road jack, play piano, play the sax. I can sing superstitious. I still have equivalent value.
Even a disabled born child is worth more than a fetus.
I'm glad my privacy wasn't violated or else I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here debating. Come on.
If we used this excuse, we would be mass breeding. Our planet is already full. There is no room for more unless you want wars and poverty. Not all people are happy because they were born.
Conclusion
There is just too many reasons to make abortion legal. There is simply no case for abortion ban. There is no point in punishing those who want less pain in the world.
We certainly have enough arguments but I'll respond to the additional ones . I'll try to make the responses short.
"People have a right to deny medical treatment"
Such as people denying abortion and not forcing sexual reproductive activities on themselves.
"If abortions are banned, people are more likely to be denied of euthanasia"
This can be two sides of the same coin. So of course pro life is about the support of life. Not inviting more options of death and death and death. Nothing controversial there.
"Banning abortion is bad for society. It costs more resources, and doesnt prevent most abortions. Plus, we are currently dealing with overpopulation. Abortion being legal saves women's lives from pain, and it prevents unwanted children from being subjected to abuse."
There's no excuse for murder. There is no justification.
"This is not about the morality of abortion itself. It is to point out that born baby has greater value than a fetus. Our society should not prioritize fetuses over born humans."
Logically speaking it cannot. It would be inconsistent to say the offspring has greater value than the root is sprang from. For you can't have one without the other. My bottom line to this entire subject debate.
"However, people have much less problems with killing baby in the womb than killing baby outside womb. So the line is already drawn in people's minds."
Ok so they still have problems, just less. Well they should have a problem with murder because they do indeed have a problem with murder.
"Choosing point right after birth to assign personhood helps us solve many problems. It ensures that we protect the born children, who are more important. "
Some points of yours are repeating so I won't be doing the same . I'll respond to what can be elaborated on until it too starts circulating. We protect born children by protecting the unborn.
"Abortion is different from genocide in a sense that abortion benefits our society much more. Genocide would hurt much more, as born, sentient people would be in pain. "
Abortion is the same in the sense of genocide because we're just killing the unborn before they're born. Genocide is killing the born is that correct? So abortion is just doing it in advance. The unborn and born are not on two different planes of genetic networks. They're connected.
Do you believe it's not murder to kill a person unjustly because that person didn't feel any pain of it ?
"Fetus in the womb violates woman's autonomy. No person gets to violate the bodily autonomy of other person. You cannot live on someone else's expense of body. Woman simply refuses to further provide her body for the fetus."
A fetus or baby in the womb does not violate a woman as a woman that consents to doing what they did to get pregnant is not violating. Maybe you want to be more specific than saying "Fetus in the womb violates woman's autonomy."
You didn't have a rebuttal to my point. You just repeated your original argument in essence. So I'll just mildly reiterate, you're already violating the autonomy of the unborn as well as in advance of that unborn being that would grow to be which could be a woman to violate her autonomy all over again.
It's just a cycle that just goes on and on. You can't get one without the other. By doing one side, you're doing the other.
"However, fetus doesnt feel pain. Plus, living the life as unwanted child is simply not good."
Don't murder me because I don't feel pain. People do want children and so we have adoption.
"There are plenty of differences between murder and abortion. The two are not comparable. The point is that abortion ban is impossible to enforce to the point where its not worthy to ban abortion."
You can murder the born as they are or do it before they are born. Either way , two sides of the same coin . So murder is illegal but it doesn't stop murdering. You might as well agree with this too.
"Child birth is much more dangerous than abortion. Also, there is a point where we can no longer afford an increase in population and we are at that point."
Oh there is no justification to murder. Tell me you won't get locked up for mass genocide.
"It gives punishment, yes. It deters, not so much. However, the punishment is simply not worthy for society. It reduces society's resources, while punishing those who help with overpopulation."
Well the punishment is what it is. Not really much to argue there. To open up a new point, saying overpopulation is a problem is just anti human rhetoric. Abortion, murdering unborn children, genocide, concentration camps, it's all self destructive. Won't be any society if we don't check this brainwashed propaganda at the door.
"We already have enough problems in foster care."
Well sort them out. We know two wrongs don't make a right .
"As explained, born children have greater value than unborn children. Unborn children who are aborted arent even valued by their own mothers. Born child passed the point of............"
All lives matter. Just in short .
"There is always a greater risk of death from child birth. You cannot guarantee that child birth will go well."
This may be the exception which IS NOT MOST cases. So off topic.
"We cannot afford more life on Earth. Sure, most people are glad to be alive. It doesnt justify breeding to the point where so few resources are left that people have to either starve, either fight to the death over whats left."
You'll never have a justification for murder. Never ever but never.
"Not having sex is good"
It is good. It is good in the way to go temporarily until the time to help survive our race. So overpopulation should never be a thought. We have people dying, manslaughter, massacre,murder, riots and violence everyday. We're already killing ourselves. So think nothing of overpopulation. Somebody with a gun now is on the job robbing, killing, terrorizing, assassinating, dealing fatal drugs, etc .
"Even a disabled born child is worth more than a fetus"
The offspring is just as importantly valuable as the root . Without the root no offspring. Do you get it?
No root = no offshoot.
"If we used this excuse, we would be mass breeding. Our planet is already full. There is no room for more unless you want wars and poverty. Not all people are happy because they were born."
You can call my gladness an excuse but does that mean it's not valued? I'm another human being like another like one that is developing in the womb. I was once a fetus. You have a problem with killing me as a human but you don't have a problem with killing what gave life to my humanity. You can't have one without the other. You're either for me alive or not. This is the conflict with the pro abortion position. It is an anti human position. This is why you can take away value in a lot of places that aren't consistent. This is also how you can push anti population or anti human population and so forth .
No justification for murdering a person or murdering me because you can't accommodate space for me or anybody else. So murdering me now is doing the same thing in the womb BUT IN ADVANCE. I want you and everybody else to get that clear.
"There is just too many reasons to make abortion legal. There is simply no case for abortion ban. There is no point in punishing those who want less pain in the world."
The bottom line is you can't have one without the other. By making abortion which is murder legal and then have a law of murder being illegal, you're nullifying the original position. Using terms like "abortion", "termination", "medical procedure" justs masks the essence of the act for what it really is.
The evidence speaks for itself when I have to literally say over and over again that the offspring is not more importantly valuable than the root. I mean that's first grade elementary 101 agriculture right there.
Round 3
I am going to concede at this point. I cant write the round in time. I need few days to rest from debating. Take the win.
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
There is no win to take. It's those that learn what they do by reading and understanding in this case our two sides are intertwined.
For instance, the protection of the woman's autonomy or rights. You start by doing that by not aborting her as what she was in the womb or what she will be because males in the womb have the chance to grow up to have daughters.
Round 4
Good debate.
It is good.
We've just demonstrated the conflict in the law in real life between both of our positions. But I think we know the law is not necessarily all about optimal health and with the total flourishing of man, truth be told.
Round 5
Abortion does upset many. Its a heavily debated topic. Of course, I prefer to debate both sides. That way, I have more debates available and its more fun.
To all the readers of this, this is a cliffhanger for a future topic.
Which is, abortion being illegal while same sex marriage is legal is inconsistent in the law.
Please send a direct message to me if you're interested.
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Mall,
Quick question, are you a Christian?
this is an argument of science vs morality im guessing