Generally speaking, sentient beings don't want to die and feel pain.
What is interesting is this already is a gaping hole in Pro's case in twofold manner. Humans not only grasp death better than all other animals put together but can actively want to die in ways other animals do not as actively do.
What is even more fascinating is that humans are the only species to be capable of wilful masochism, as in embracing pain whether through spicy food through to severe kinky activity.
1
: the derivation of sexual gratification from being subjected to physical pain or humiliation by oneself or another
2
: pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
While not all species are trainable through food and reward/pleasure mechanisms, all species other than humans are trainable through fearing agony and pain. Humans are the only species to both be actively capable of suicidal ideation and genuine masochism. This is one of many examples of what separates humans so far from the rest of the animal kingdom and is proof of their complexity and sentience being extremely ahead of the rest.
I would argue that the primary trait that gives human life moral value is that they are sentient, feel pain, and avoid death just like pretty much any other animal.
This could perhaps be a point if it were true, yet I just explored how humans are both more complex in their understanding of death and pain as well as their capacity to crave it in ways no other animal can to the same level.
Any other trait is morally superfluous in comparison
You never explained why not wanting to die is linked to it being wrong to kill. Are you suggesting that we should literally euthanise all suicidal people rather than work against their lack of will to live? Should we maximally torture the masochistic? Is everything linked to will?
If that is the case, how would we ever punish wrongdoers who don't want to go to prison and endure punishments that give them displeasure?
and in most cases brings into question whether it is ok to genocide the mentally handicapped.
Are you going to explain why it's wrong to do so? The reason that I ask this is that there seems to be no basis for it being wrong if their mental handicap is so severe that they don't comprehend death or significantly fear it, let alone pain.
It always boils down to humans being more intelligent or able in some way but when it comes to sentience itself humans are no different than a dog in the sense that they are self-aware and feel pain.
No different? You believe a dog is no different to a human in self-awareness? You seem to be arguing a lot about pain but if Con states to aim for the most painless means of slaughter and rearing of animals, then why is pain relevant?
If the trait is that humans are the same species as you then that makes it morally ok for aliens to torture and genocide the human race.
Where did torture get brought into this debate? I genuinely don't understand and will wait for you to explain it. All Con has to do is unite with Pro in opposing battery/factory farming and embracing ethical farming practise and then the torture point is eradicated from relevance to the debate. So, let me do that right now.
Con agrees with Pro to not torture animals during this debate, to the entirety and extent that Pro wishes to take it. Con will not fight Pro or deny Pro on it being wrong to torture animals especially without a good reason for it being necessary.
The bottom line is that you are a psychopath to an extent if you don't recognize animals/sentient beings as valuable in general and not just your own species or certain members of your own species.
You can fully feel emotions and be a mass murderer, you probably mean sociopath and not psychopath here. That difference is irrelevant to the debate but relevant to the extended points you may be trying to make. Psychopaths do not care whatsoever about morality and the emotions attached, sociopaths care but also have needs and wants. Ironically this is where humans are alike to animals.
There are plenty of moral systems and principles which don't actually place sentience and harm at the center of things, so what makes those principles and systems less morally valid?
None. I wish to uphold them in this debate actually, it is you who has to defend that being the core.
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Trait 1: Being the only species capable of true moral reasoning and ethical concerns.
All other species are more sociopathic than us, even 'kind' prey ones. It doesn't matter if you show them impulsively sharing with their own kind or impulsively nurturing the young of another species that a mourning mother who lost her young came across. All other species run in sheer instinct and only accidentally act morally, we are the only species to care about that stuff.
The reason this matters, is that if we are to discuss leaving a being alive, perhaps we'd want to consider if we are leaving alive a being that will reciprocate morally and be caring and helpful back to us or not.
This is not purely about morality, more about logic but it is a trait to consider in moral equations when weighing how worthwhile it is to leave a being alive.
The burden of proof in this is on you, to prove that other species have anything like our philosophical reasoning capacity. I can show examples of other mammals being impulsively moral in small bursts but that's not at all the equivalent to what I am suggesting here.
Trait 2: Being useful, trainable and productive.
If you get rid of even 1 human, you have typically gotten rid of a being that had at least the potential to be as productive, trainable and useful as 3.5 animals of another species, generally speaking. It's anti-utilitarian to get rid of this being for the good of other beings and the overall economy and progress of the world, let alone species.
What 1 human can do in their professional and unprofessional life is far ahead of what any other animal can do. To kill them for food, let's say, is overall maladaptive. Even if they are a mentally ill homeless person, treating them and training them is the arguable way to go whereas the maximum you can do with a pig, chicken, fish, cow or sheep is not really going to compare.
Trait 3: Being dangerous even in death.
The fact people care more when coming across a dead human body, hearing about unsolved murders etc means that by killing a human, you have pretty much secured that you are going to delay and disrupt the progress and productivity of society the moment the body is in any way discovered. You also have put yourself in jeopardy as you may go to prison and become far less useful yourself.
This is not an argument of the 'original morality' instead it's a genuine trait that you need to consider. The very chaos and uproar a human being dead instead of alive causes is far more severe in ripple effect than any other species. It holds police work back (as they have to put resources into solving it), holds those who find it back as they are sad and traumatised so on and so forth.
Trait 4: There is often a sexual rush involved with murdering humans.
Often serial killers of humans are driven by deep sexual sadism. They don't tend to be able to get the same rush from killing non-humans. This almost makes the murder and methods they use a rituralistic rape, if you will.
Trait 5: Toxic meat
Humans often eat meat (but carnivores proportionally eat more meat in their diet) and if you didn't know, read the following:
An international team of researchers led by the University of Granada (UGR) has explained for the first time the scientific basis of the old Spanish saying 'perro no come perro' (dog eats no dog): for a carnivorous animal, eating carrion of another carnivore, especially if it is of the same species, increases the probability of contracting pathogens that could endanger its life.
This work, which also includes the participation of the University of Berkeley (USA), the University of Murcia (Spain) and the Miguel Hernández University (Spain), has been published in the
Journal of Animal Ecology. This study provides new information about an idea whose origin goes back at least to the times of ancient Rome. The saying in Latin is "Canis caninam non est," which says, in a social context, that members of a certain guild tend to avoid conflicts among themselves.
The expression 'dog eats no dog' seems to have originated from empirical observations about the aversion of
carnivorous animals to eat the carcasses of other carnivores. And, as Marcos Moleón Paiz, researcher at the Department of Zoology of the UGR and main author of this work, explains, "humans love to eat, but not anything, or at any price."
Among the countless species of
animals and plants that inhabit the planet, only a handful provide the bulk of the carbohydrates and proteins demanded by mankind. Examples are wheat, rice, chicken and pork.
"Moreover, tastes change from one culture to another and from one person to another. Should the rest of the animals behave differently? Could a scavenger animal, the paradigm of opportunism, be selective in deciding what type of carrion is advisable to eat and which is not? These were the questions that gave rise to our study," explains Moleón.
We eat a lot of processed food. We are quite toxic ourselves.
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>Reported Vote: Barney // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 4 to con
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
...
This vote was reported explicitly for: "gives no reasoning for the vote and instead just has links under reasoning"
Reviewed by oromagi: "I think he's just missing your posts in comments"
And from the voting policy: "...the comment section is the ideal place for any commentary which is not part of the vote. It is also an acceptable place to expand the reasoning for your vote"
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#based-on-outside-content
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Well the accounts voted for you in the RFD but gave the actual voting points to SL making him the winner which was weird
SL is the sneaky little thing. I am just not his typical victim. I don't take abuse lying down nor is my reaction the kind of rage he enjoys seeing.
I also have reduced my interactions as his abuse is now becoming so severe it even affects the capacity for me to engage in legitimate rated debating here.
Which accounts voted for me in the battle?
@RM
You're accusing me of coordinating with someone to vote on here is weird. My vote is my vote I don't need anyone to coach me. But I can't control what you think. My vote was in no way a vote bomb against you of any kind, it was a legitimate vote minus the conduct point per whiteflame which was a mistake of mine. My bad whiteflame for the conduct vote, but other than that it was legit. We may have issues but if you won a debate, you won the debate and I'll pick you as winner, same as a rap battle. No bias stuff.
You talking about the comment I made this battle? https://www.debateart.com/debates/4604-rap-battle-sirlancelot-vs-rationalmadman
Over me telling SL "Congrats on the win my brotha" what does that have to do with anything. Who's to say all those random account created aren't you? I could easily all those accounts you obviously made to vote for yourself on the battle were you because they were. They all conveniently voted for you and created around the same time.
Now I'm possibly getting dragged into some kind of scandal and accusations and me possibly being banned. RM, I see you're a master manipulator and love to pull strings. You got got SL banned so now you want to get me banned huh? You sneaky lil thing. Yep time time for me to slowly limit myself off this site, like I have been doing anyways. Don't have time for the foolishness. I can't do anything. I'm sure any legitimate vote that's not a vote bomb, you'll instantly report it since it's me and run and tell the mods which is fine but I won't be apart of it any longer 🙏🏾
We have no basis whatsoever for believing that Devon is involved in this, so no, we’re not going to permanently ban him over a comment made on a separate debate and his vote here.
And yes, I do believe we know who is responsible. It’s not a mystery. That doesn’t mean it’s who you think it is.
whoever it is is coordinating with devon btw, based both on his vote here and the comment he made to lancelot's win agaisnt me in the rap battle. I am not sure you're understanding you should permaban whoever is responsible, you are acting like it's a mystery who is behind it yet you say you concretely know it's the same person.
These votes are targeting RM, same as those before. I think, considering everything, either allow judges for rated either greatly increase voting requirements. Removing votes after voting period would work as well. If elo is not restored, then it wont work.
Both the accounts that vote bombed just as time was running out have been banned. We know this is the result of actions from a single user, but since all their accounts have already been permanently banned, we can only keep knocking them down. Would be great if we could remove these votes after the debate ends…
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>Reported Vote: Devon // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 4 point to Pro (Arguments, Conduct)
Pro argues that the main incentive for survival of all sentient beings is self-preservation, implying that their will to live is instinctual. He uses multiple facts to support this conclusion, including that anyone who violates their privilege to live is morally and ethically wrong, and most likely a psychopath. I buy this line of reasoning, as these two constructives are very powerful arguments.
Con counters that some species, including humans are suicidal and that death is sometimes a biological imperative. Con goes off-topic by mentioning the mental state of humans and claims it's possible to be a compassionate human with a moral compass and a serial killer. These arguments do nothing to refute Pro's arguments and deliberately misinterpret Pro's arguments. Since Con argues in bad faith here, points for conduct goes to Pro.
Since Con goes off-topic, then the point for arguments goes to Pro. Both sides have decent legibility and provide scientifically accurate data to support their narrative, so it is a tie for sources and legibility.
>Reason for Mod Action:
While the voter does sufficiently explain arguments, the conduct point is insufficiently explained. Claiming that a debater “argues in bad faith” is not a sufficient basis for awarding conduct, particularly as it assumes motivations behind making certain arguments. Refer to the voting standards for specifics regarding instances where conduct may be awarded.
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I report devon's conduct point vote
In the final Round I point out that 'animals' didn't mean I had to justify killing nor eating evry single animal out there, I could justify it for herbivores and leave it at that. I could say kill an ant and leave it at that.
Dumb debate. Comments herein prove that fact.
Your 5th trait was toxicity. While you played up the comedy with just focusing on why we should not be cannibals, I presume other types of animals are meat based. ;)
If we are all the sudden imposing human rights on to animals are they criminally punished for killing other animals, or property damage. Obviously not. Furthermore, while it may be difficult to point out specific traits that humans posses that other animals don't, humans have much more developed consciousness and understanding of the world that is leagues above any other animal.
Yes, that is better than you giving him a horrible life.
Your vote is stupid because is it really much better if I murder you if you live a comfortable life first? Your viewpoint is skewed because we're talking about animals but if you think of it as humans and realize you are biased towards humans it makes sense why your vote makes no sense.
thanks for the vote
It's a killing debate, not just an eating one. Nothing in this debate was actually about eating, I put trait 5 in to distract/drain Pro in case he'd actually put effort into fighting all 5.
Con for his part outlined five traits, some of which were more effective than others; most of them used implicit moralities such as self interest to not eat high levels of mercury (or other toxins). When I first read this I did not get where con was going with the value of work trait, yet I’m going over this again it makes perfect sense that if any were to become food it ought to be the less productive.
The big thing is degrees of intelligence/sentience. While con did not explicitly prove that killing and eating is a-okay, pro was arguing against the status quo, meaning it was pro’s job to first show it as clearly unethical within the frameworks under discussion (which was a place of high ambiguity).
I think the real place con won this was simply not siding with the meat industry. Pro has built in pathos and ethos appeals if discussing the horrible conditions in pig farms. He lacks that as a generalization about the act of consuming meat itself (be it from a humane farm, or hunting).
…
Were this debate on how we’re hypocritical in our treatment of animals, pro would take it. Us being hypocrites, closely resembles an institutional kritik but fails to dismiss that humans are far far worse to kill.
Humans are animals, so the title is entirely impossible.
I’ll be back later to finish…
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Fun read.
Pro, I’ll actually suggest tossing some emojis in to compliment your argumentation style. While I’m imagining you calling con a rapist and such in John Cleese’s voice, without clarity that you’re committing to hyperbolic humor it’s a noteworthy conduct violation.
I’d also suggest starting a topic like this aimed at just one specific species. Pigs for example. The link for animals showing empathy included too many animals which are not farmed, while leaving out cows.
What is meant by sentient should be included in the description; as was, con was swiftly able to show insurmountable difference in degrees of sentience via humans moral reasoning. Why comparing to mentally disabled humans failed, is due to the averages con pointed out; exceptions are poor for setting rules. That super intelligent dog ought to not be farmed for being as smart as Forest Gump, says little about the rest of them.
Oh and never end a debate with a statement like: “ We wouldn't even be having this conversation if humans weren't sentient and that is the true basis of human value.”
your votes will be appreciated, thanks in advance. I tried to keep this as straightforward as possible so voting will not require too hard of a read.