Instigator / Pro

Pevensie

1500

rating

debates

56.25%

won

Topic

#4739

The Dark Knight (2008) is the greatest superhero movie of all time

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...

Best.Korea

Tags

Movie

Batman

Parameters

Publication date: 07.19.2023 05:38PM
Last updated date: 08.19.2023 12:25AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: One day
Max argument characters: 1,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Best.Korea

1250

rating

393

debates

39.57%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

Pevensie

07.19.2023 07:13PM

Pro

Heath Ledger's Joker is spectacular

The custom of green hair, smudged makeup, face scars, and bright red lipstick accompanied with Ledger's manic and ghastly performance, chiefly his nefarious laughs, exemplifies evil. The character is extremely well written. He is a pathological liar, perverted and brutal murderer, and pure sociopath. The character's origins are never revealed, although his motivation is: he engages in evil simply for the amusement and satisfaction of it. Describing the Joker, Batman's butler says

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

In order to defeat this archetypal villain, Batman acts in way he himself abhors. He allows other to sacrifice and takes responsibility for death, and violates rights in order to save people. Batman is the only one who can do these things and ultimately save the city because he is the alter ego of another man.

Best.Korea

07.19.2023 08:33PM

Con

My movie of choice is

Batman: Gotham Knight

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Gotham_Knight

Whats special about this movie is the morality of Batman and different views on how people in Gotham see Batman.

Batman's morality is shown when he gains new equipment called "Deflector device".

Equipment seems good at the start. Deflector device deflects bullets, making Batman practically immune to bullets and unkillable. However, in one case when it was used, deflector device deflected a bullet to another person and almost killed that person.

Batman returned the device to its producer and said:

"It works too well: I'm willing to put my life on the line to do what I have to. But it has to be mine, no one else's."

Batman stopped using deflector device and gave up on being immune to bullets, because using such device can cause harm to others even if it protects Batman.

Batman simply doesnt want to kill others, even if he has to get killed to uphold that standard.

Awesome display of morality.

Round 2

Pevensie

07.19.2023 08:45PM

Pro

Unlike Batman: Gotham Knight, which is an animated movie, The Dark Knight is a top-notch live-action film. The themes of moral ambiguity, as already mentioned, and cynicism along with dark lighting and a plot centered on criminal mayhem and a heroic vigilante solidify the film's classification as Neo-noir, a noteworthy and rare accolade for a superhero movie. Inspired by Michael Mann’s Heat, Christopher Nolan decided to film his movie in a real city: Chicago, Illinois. The soundstage was forgone by this director. All of the effects, people, and backgrounds are real. The thrilling semi-truck flip actually happened. Through these techniques, Gotham and the move as a whole feels authentic and gritty, unlike my opponent' animated choice. While The Dark Knight thrives to be as realistic as possible, Batman: Gotham Knight accepts its fake and dull optics.

Best.Korea

07.19.2023 10:30PM

Con

The Dark Knight does have good graphic. However, Gotham Knight also has good graphic, even if animated.

Gotham Knight captures not just complete opposite mentalities of some characters, but also many different mentalities, some closer to good, others closer to evil.

Certain character hated and criticized Batman, only to end up being saved by Batman and that showed him that he needs Batman.

The entire Gotham Knight movie is filled with diversity. Some characters are insane. Some are small criminals. Some are professional killers. Some are greedy buisnessmen. Some are dedicated detectives. Some are innocent victims. Some are cult leaders. Some are gang leaders. Some are spiritual people who cant seem to be bothered by problems of this world.

There is justice, but also forgiveness. There is a display of both criminals and innocents suffering in that world.

Within that all, there is Batman. He is not some unchangable hero, but always grows and develops his views. He makes mistakes and he learns.

Round 3

Pevensie

07.19.2023 10:43PM

Pro

My opponent admits that moth films have good graphics for their respected formats. I poset that live action is a superior formate and, therefore, The Dark Knight's graphs are better. Gotham Knight is filled with characters that are easily sorted into the good or evil category. They are simple. The Dark Knight's characters, especially DA Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon, are not easily sorted. They have a just cause and good motives, although they act in morally questionable ways.

Best.Korea

07.20.2023 12:03AM

Con

Gotham Knight is filled with characters that are easily sorted into the good or evil category.

I take issue with this claim, since gotham knight has many characters that cannot be exactly sorted into good or evil.

For example, Batman meets men at the sewers.

He says to them: "I am looking for a monster."

They answer: "We are all monsters here".

Those men dont exactly do anything good or bad in the movie, yet they label themselves as monsters.

There is also a buisnessman of questionable values, who might or might not have killed a woman that was protesting against him. It is a mistery.

Then there is a boy in the gang who doesnt seem exactly bad. In fact, he just seems like he was forced into a gang, rather than being evil. Batman helps him after he was wounded.

Then there is Batman himself, who is considered evil by many. In fact, even cops try to track him down.

"He is a vigilante."

"No, he is not"

There are many levels of insanity, and mass confusion about Batman in Gotham Knight.

ihadsexok

08.19.2023 12:25AM

joker>>>

Average_Person

08.07.2023 05:28PM

I thought I made formatting it like that to show reasoning per round to make all decisions clear 😭

Barney

08.07.2023 12:39AM

-->

@Average_Person

@Best.Korea

@Pevensie

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: Average_Person // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to con
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
The vote gives plenty of detail, and doesn't imply any bias.

The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
**************************************************

TWS1405_2

07.19.2023 08:40PM

I’ll be subscribing and watching this debate.

Barney

08.05.2023 06:14AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

I appreciate that con used a Batman movie for easier contrast.

Within the confines of this debate, I am left with the impression that DK was about The Joker, and had a shortage on character development (I loved their take on Joker; but no analysis was given to state why it was a good thing that he was a force of nature instead of a traditional character with relatable motives); in contrast GK was about Batman making mistakes and learning. Further, I got a real sense of a plot from GK with Batman injuring someone and regretting it.

Too many dangling questions were left by pro. Why was Heat not a better superhero movie if it’s what DK was based on? And why would a movie be the best merely for being live action and containing any one certain actor?

Video links would have gone a long way. The flip for example, if shown becomes a great moment, if just talked about it depends on the audience voting their bias.

Average_Person

07.26.2023 12:35PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

r1
- P describes only Joker (why only joker?) physical appearance and traits
- P says that Batman violates rights, sacrifices others to save ppl

- C says Gotham Knight is better
- C shows how Batman's morality changes in Deflector device.
- C says batman gave up this abaility, doesn't want to kill others.

r2
- P says GK is animated, DK is action w/lighting and plot
- P says DK was in ra real city, with real bg and people.

- C refutes saying DK was also good graphics, and also mentalities of characters
- C says GK had diversity in mentality and changing of ppl

r3
- P repeats point about DK having better graphics despite not citing anything or providing too much logic there.

- C clear example with GK not bein a clear "direct" good/evil, with an example of Batman in the sewer, businessman killing women, boy in gang, and Batman himself having ambiguous characters.

Arg - C
I'd say C victory here. C listed examples of reasoning in both r1 and r3, while P simply just stated reasons with little elaboration.

Src - tie
C used 1 source to tell audience what GK is.
P used none.
I can't really give points for that, since 1 source was not exactly used for an arg.

Leg - tie
ok on both

Cond - tie
ok on both