Thanks TheElephantInTheRoom,
I tried to make this as short as possible.
Regarding Rules
Rules one and three have been waived; tigerlord has accepted a different debate.
Point
Case
The following will be talked about:
- Aisha is not an Adult
- Prophet (SAW) was an Adult
- Difference between a child and adult
- Aisha being a child, and Prophet (SAW) being an adult = Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile
- Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile regardless of Islamic beliefs
The burden is shared between both users, pro and con.
Pro must prove that Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile
Con must prove that Prophet (SAW) was not a pedophile
In the process, I will mostly be providing that because Aisha was a child and Prophet (SAW) was an adult, he was a pedophile.
Definitions:
Pedophile: a person who is sexually attracted to children.
Child groomer: Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them.
Child: A child is a human being who is not yet an adult.
Adult: An adult is a mature, fully developed person.
Assumptions
I wanted to clear a few assumptions that may be made in this debate.
1. "Prophet (SAW) had married others before that weren't children meaning he wasn't a pedophile"
First off, that is incorrect.
People have had a relationship with adults, however, still can be sexually attracted to children as well, making them a pedophile.
2. "Aisha had puberty = adult"
That is incorrect. Having puberty does not mean you are capable of being an adult, and in fact even shows your not fully developed yet.
With that said, I will address later in this debate on what an actual adult is.
3. "Marriage during that time had different age ranges and was accepted meaning Prophet (SAW) was not a pedophile"
This debate does not regard anything about if marriage was acceptable during that time.
Even if she was in that age range, the reason it wouldn't matter is because this debate is about if Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile. In that time, people can be a pedophile but the marriage itself might be accepted.
Contentions
I. Aisha was a child when she got married
Aisha is estimated to be six year old, however many others also say Aisha may be six to nine years old at the time of marriage.
Let's go into depth about her actually, in reality, being six to seven years old.
1.
"Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
Narrated 'A'isha :
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old, and he (the Holy Prophet) took her to his house when she was nine, and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old
3.
It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
"The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."
There are many others, but let's use those three. All three show that she was of the age of six, not eighteen, nine, eight, etc.
This shows by itself, that she was a child. So in terms of attraction, Prophet (SAW) married and had sex with a child.
II. Fully grown and Maturity
Base of Maturity
An adult per definition is being full grown have having maturity.
I wanted to go into depths about both things.
1. Being fully developed
2. Maturity
This raises the question, was Aisha an adult under both standards?
I will use both standards in an interchangeable manner.
These are the three things that regard it:
- Sexually developed/mature
- Physically developed/mature
- Mentally developed/mature
Sexually Mature
"Humans are sexually mature after puberty, but puberty can start anywhere between ages 8 and 13 for girls and between ages 9 and 14 for boys"
You are sexually mature after puberty not beginning puberty, not in the middle, but after.
So, even if Aisha had gotten puberty early, she had not fully been through puberty.
Brain Maturity
Now, let's come down to your brain. When does your brain fully develop in order to reach maturity?
At the age of 25 you have full maturity.
"The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part."
Considering the fact that Aisha was nowhere near that age, can she be considered to have maturity of the level that adult's have maturity? No.
Maturity of giving consent
With that said, it is was clear that it would be impossible for a six year old to give consent.
I will say however, while the PFC develops several complex functions at age twelve, Aisha was not age twelve. In fact she was half that age.
I have another site to back this up:
"All of cognitive functions seem to reach a relative plateau of maturity at about the age of 12 years. For example, development of attention reach maturity at about age 12, Working memory and planning seem to develop also at the same pace and toward the same plateau (about 12 years)."
Islamic religion itself
Let's actually go into where they talk about her as a "little" girl:
"Narrated `Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)"
It quite literally states itself, at that time, Aisha was a little girl.
So, already, we see that Aisha at the age of six, she was a little girl. Confirmed by the sources themselves without science.
As I state down below, with Prophet (SAW)'s attraction as she was a little girl just goes to show he was a pedophile.
Furthermore..
The History of al-Tabari Vol. 9: The Last Years of the Prophet” (page 128) states:
“As for 'A’ishah, when he married her she was very young and not yet ready for consummation ..
877. She was six years old when the Prophet married her in Shawwal, tenth year of the mission. The marriage was consummated in Shawwal in Medina when she was nine years old. She died in Ramaḍān 58/678. Ibn Sa'd, Tabaqāt, VIII, 39-56; Baladhuri, Ansāb, 1, 409–21.”
She was six years old, and married and it even states that she was "very young and not ready for consummation" but still, he attracted existed.
With all that, this reference doesn't even tell us what "ready" means. What will ready ever mean for Islam religion?
Two things:
- Doesn't reveal that she even reached puberty
- Even if she did reach puberty it does not make her an adult
III. Sexual Attraction and Attraction
Both attractions are one of the same
In order to have a sexual attraction and arousal, you must also have to have attraction.
In this case, it is shown that Prophet (SAW) had attraction to Aisha which lead to his overall sexual attraction in a young girl, a child.
Prophet (SAW) showed interest and pleasure in Aisha. As of which as said, his romantic attraction had also become a sexual attraction and sexual relationship with Aisha.
Prophet (SAW) was attracted to Aisha, hence, the marriage. Prophet (SAW) had a sexual attraction to a child.
Prophet (SAW) had intercourse with Aisha
"The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
"The Prophet married Aishah when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and he passed away when she was eighteen."
Having intercourse with a child shows even more to prove the fact, Prophet (SAW) indeed was a pedophile.
IV. Conclusion
In light of all this, we can clearly see that Prophet (SAW) was a pedophile. He had an attraction to her, a romantic and sexual relationship with Aisha, a child. Aisha was not of the age of maturity, sexual maturity, or physical maturity.
Aisha was a child, Prophet (SAW) had an attraction to Aisha and in reality that makes him a pedophile.
I'll hand it to you now con.
Me outa here
I think the challenge to this debate will be to compare in a convincing way how the cultures of today and those in early 600 AD are similar with respect to minor attraction and how that differs from young matrimony. I mean you don't have to go back that far in American history to see adult men marrying minor-aged women.
Alright.. It's been sent. Up to you to accept.
I can argue for Islam better than you can, Tigerlord, it is very likely.
I will do atheism vs Islam as a legal system as in Secular vs Sharia.
Yeah, I wanted a challenge, but I soon read the rules, and I eventually came to the realization that I was too impulsive on accepting this challenge. However, I will try to debate, so I can learn something. Once again, sorry! And thank you for the recommendation.
I do find it fun to hear the other side of people. That's why I wanted you and Sir Lancelot to duke it out about religion. There should be no reason to get angry over someone who makes fun of your prophet or God. Are they not big enough to take care of themselves or do they need you to do it for them?
I would suggest check my islam vs anthing2 debate and get all the information you need. Just use basic knowledge which is needed to form any argument to do this debate.
It's weird, if you did not have enough information, then why accepted it? That is how you give people wins, and they consider themselves high and might debaters.
I'd rather concede. I don't know enough sufficient information to form an argument about the topic.
Already mentioned it in my previous debate. It's in resources. Where I showed what was custom and rules in England and Europe. I did not have much space in round, I deleted specific paragraphs about Jews Christians and other religions like Hindu and Muslim and some other cultural societies. Everything is there in debate. Also, I have said it before on this topic or any other topic I can write 100s of pages, and it won't stop even then. When you have habit of removing skin from hair then, you can do it. Removing skin from hair is the translation of a proverb in my language.
The thing is i could take this debate and could win even more easy then the previous one. But i have my own preferences, this debate was instigated without my consent. so i am not obliged to accept it. I have my own plans and schedules. I wanted to do offensive debates where i am questioning someone else believe or countering it with mine. this topic is defensive and whatever i have done i consider it enough for people to know about the case so far. Later maybe i will put more light into it if i feel there is need and can instigate debate myself on my terms. Though from previous debate i have found out that a voter can ignore any rule which i have set. like in last debate, barney just put BOP on me and rejected my own set rule.
While in previous debate the rule set by me for forfeit costed me my debate. A hypocritical approach. i feel very un safe with this biased and hypocritical attitude.
Oh, dont worry lol
They were about to make another debate anyway, from what I understand.
you can do it if you want.
Sorry y'all. I misread the rules and accepted this debate. I am going to find a way to opt myself out.
Edit: Unfortunately, I could not do that.
Have you, by any chance, watched Daniel's debate on Modern Debate on YouTube regarding child marriages? There were other debates about Aisha's marriage, but Daniel exposes how anyone condemning such marriage is also condemning his ancestors, as ancestors all approved of it.
Daniel is a muslim debater and one that I found very interesting, as he posts lots of content.
https://youtu.be/n4joxQUkf-w
I didn't pick any judges, and I was already going to send the challange. I just got busy.
on the other hand you are Taoism, I want to debate with atheist or agnostic.
When someone blocks someone, then it shows there is no concern with each other. rational mad
Tigerlord, vs me then
Do you think it's fun to Debate about this topic? Do you think it's a children's game? Do you think slandering a prophet and His pious wife has no consequences? If you think that way then you are wrong. I have done it properly and in good manner. There is still a lot of information and data to analyze and use in this regard, but i do not feel any need of it right now.
I shall debate on topics which are more pressing, and I have expertise on them as well. Probably Islam vs atheism.
A fair debate with only unbiased and objective voters is something you guys both need.
Discuss this in dms. Tigerlord chooses 2 voters and Bella chooses 2 voters. If both of you agree to all judges, then Bella can recreate the challenge with those judges and Tigerlord freely accepts.
No point in negotiating the terms here in the comments because this will take forever. Either the chosen judges accept the invite or they don’t.
I told you. I tried to base it on the overall, but like you said, there should not have been points for conduct since there was no conduct field.
EVERYBODY has bias. It is up to you to sway the bias.
Anyways, are you going to debate this one too?
I'll take Slainte's place.
I am removing myself as a potential judge for this debate.
Then why gave tie? You know if I would have gotten justice on that debate I would have accepted mormons debate and this one without hesitation. But I saw biased, that is why I am hesitating.
Even winning this is not big deal.
I suppose the conduct point was not warranted if there were no conduct points to give. Either way, if you can best your opponent here on arguments then you can be the victor on the debate.
Good luck. I really think your last debate with SL was won due to him not being on his game on that one, but your position is hard to defend and Bella seems a mighty opponent.
I'm not sure you are up to debating this one.
(49:11) O believers! Do not let some ˹men˺ ridicule others, they may be better than them, nor let ˹some˺ women ridicule other women, they may be better than them. Do not defame one another, nor call each other by offensive nicknames. How evil it is to act rebelliously after having faith! And whoever does not repent, it is they who are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers.
https://quran.com/49?startingVerse=11
rational mad man, are you sincere when you're saying it? Or it's just trolling with me?
I have already given names for judges
voting period 6 months.
I will add a bit of my own rules. Some of them you guys are already familiar. But I will it again, why I should be defensive. I have done debate about this topic in great detail. this debate is nothing but to frame me.
even though I am not that easy to be framed. But still with biased votes and arrogant behavior, winner to come looser is not very hard.
david in last debate why not you voted in my favor while you admitted “Though I do appreciate Con and his abilities, but I think he fell short on this one, however Pro's extreme stance and his conduct would make this a tie”
I do not think a conduct should give a tie, because in 1 point system there is no conduct points.
you should have given me argument points.
Con fell short, then why tie?
I'd like to judge in this one if Tigerlord doesn't chicken out.
To mock people as 'tard' and dismiss them for that is Haram.
https://islamonline.net/en/the-prophets-care-for-people-with-special-needs/
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/19452/bullying-in-islam/
Be humble, do not judge and taunt fellow creations of Allah.
By saying that, you are trolling me?
By the way, what is the grand plan?
Islam is as simple as Nature. Islam is made up on Nature, we call it fitrah.
Do not try the same approach you do with Christians.
why I am not taking debates any more you wanna know?
Well as I can't wait for your answer so let me tell you any way.
As I said in comment section at the end of my last debate that, I will go on offensive stance, not any more defensive.
I can do this debate easy peasy, and can win even. But why not take a better approach.
The thing is you see anything happens within Islam whether it's in earlier time or even nowadays is with the will of Allah.
If I can prove Islam is true religion and Allah is creator of everything and everything happens with his will and in every process or event there is something good from him. Then it will be easier to convince, that something was destined from Allah to happen in the way it happened. Probably you can call it that grand plan, if you were referring it to be.
In short, if you are a Muslim, it will be easy to make you accept things which seems different for you now.
No matter how much solid argument I present, it won't affect you much, so why not try to convince you in a way I have already mentioned above.
In the last message, I tagged the wrong person.
as rational mad man has blocked me i cant tag him.
By saying that, you are trolling me?
By the way, what is the grand plan?
Islam is as simple as Nature. Islam is made up on Nature, we call it fitrah.
Do not try the same approach you do with Christians.
why I am not taking debates any more you wanna know?
Well as I can't wait for your answer so let me tell you any way.
As I said in comment section at the end of my last debate that, I will go on offensive stance, not any more defensive.
I can do this debate easy peasy, and can win even. But why not take a better approach.
The thing is you see anything happens within Islam whether it's in earlier time or even nowadays is with the will of Allah.
If I can prove Islam is true religion and Allah is creator of everything and everything happens with his will and in every process or event there is something good from him. Then it will be easier to convince, that something was destined from Allah to happen in the way it happened. Probably you can call it that grand plan, if you were referring it to be.
In short, if you are a Muslim, it will be easy to make you accept things which seems different for you now.
No matter how much solid argument I present, it won't affect you much, so why not try to convince you in a way I have already mentioned above.
It is Haram to ridicule or insult the mentally hindered with phrases such as 'tard minds'.
They are part of Allah's masterpiece, chosen to exist now as they are, in his almighty grand plan.
Word forms: plural ˈchildren
1. an infant; baby
2. an unborn offspring; fetus
3. a boy or girl in the period before puberty
4. a son or daughter; offspring
5.
a. a descendant
b. a member of a tribe, clan, etc.
often used in pl.
children of Israel
6. a person like a child in interests, judgment, etc., or one regarded as immature and childish
7. a person identified with a specified place, time, etc.
a child of the Renaissance
8. a thing that springs from a specified source; product
a child of one's imagination
9. Archaic
childe
10. British, Dialectal
a female infant
i do not know why you want that? i have done whole 5 round debate about it already. and i have made everything clear in it.
its just tard minds who cannot understand.
Still wasn't going to explore that as part of the definition, but hey, thanks. I'll change it.
Just ask them "What do you think I should do now?".
That pretty much stuns them and makes them think you are taking them seriously.
But if you tell a therapist what they want to hear, they dont bother you anymore.
Eh, therapists were mean to me in prison.
And that is wrong and part of the stigma driving MAPs to be too afraid to open up to therapists ending up with seriously repressed urges that only the higher EQ can self-therapise their way out of.
Nobody who experiences that will open up about it, they will bury it and that can lead to bursts of feeling the need to act on it whereas if they were more open about it and able to be comfortable with feeling such taboo urges, they could finally come to terms with the fact that it's a choice, acting vs wanting to and that fantasy is a safe area, acting isn't.
It sounds simple, the ending of what I just wrote, but is not simple. People learn to bury the urges, never having fantasies in their heads and scared shitless to come to terms with their sexuality. This does NOT help them control the urges.
FYI: the current description for the pedo tag reads:
The deplorable mental illness of adults desiring sexual relations with children; along with closely related behaviors.
I don’t consider there to be a need for nuanced semantics. In English common usage a pedo is a creeper attracted to pre-adults of any age.
Kritik: he was both! 🤣
I can judge if you are selecting judges
Somebody could win this by clai.ing he is both not or. This would force I stigator to argue against their own points
It still says "Hebephilia" instead of hebephile.
Better, along with the definition change or should I change the resolution a bit more?
Yep, im figuring out a resolution/changing the definitions now.
While tigerlord might not care, I will. I will literally vote based on the topic as it is. So unless you prove that Muhammad was a sexual attraction, I give win to Con without even reading what Con writes.
I just said im fixing it to where that's not assumed.
It is same as saying
Muhammad was hunger.