Instigator / Pro

the_quiet_poet9

1486

rating

debates

45.0%

won

Topic

#4642

Les Miserables is better than Phantom of the Opera

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot

Tags

Musicals

Parameters

Publication date: 06.28.2023 05:37PM
Last updated date: 07.31.2023 03:58PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Description

Les Miserables is more inspiring and has a better message.

Round 1

the_quiet_poet9

06.28.2023 08:20PM

Pro

Claim

Les Miserables is better than Phantom of the Opera

Reasons

1. The moral themes portrayed in Les Miserables are those of compassion, love, and the resilience of the human spirit, and those seen in Phantom of the Opera are understanding, love, and empathy, all of which are strong messages, and it would not be profitable to try and debate which of them are morally better. However, although they are all strong, the ones in Les Miserables inspire the soul to reformation and to strive for greater perfection, while those in Phantom of the Opera at most encourage empathy, and are therefore not as influential.

2. The characters in Les Miserables are more distinct and likable than those in Phantom of the Opera despite that there are more of them.

3. The characters in Les Miserables also experience more development than those in Phantom of the Opera; the whole plot of Les Miserables revolves around Jean Valjean's reformation of character, while the characters in Phantom of the Opera hardly have time to develop due to the play's short time frame.

4. Les Miserables is more informative than the Phantom of the Opera as it accurately portrays life in the 1830s and the political struggles of the time.

Conclusion

Les Miserables is a better musical than Phantom of the Opera because of its inspirational themes and characters.

Sir.Lancelot

06.29.2023 08:19PM

Con

Phantom of The Opera is a separate kind of novel/musical than Les Miserables that tells a completely different story.

Certainly, the latter tells a very good story about a hero's adventure from escaping and fighting oppression. It represents people and their struggles as a whole.

But Phantom of The Opera's symbolization goes even deeper than that.

POTO is better because it is.:

An origin story.
A story about growth, trauma, sadness, misery, isolation, and society's vanity.

Origin Story

People assume POTO is fictional, but the reality is it's a true story.

The Palais Garnier Opera House is real. https://www.operadeparis.fr/
There is an artificial lake underneath the building and there once lived a decrepit phantom who was an architect that helped construct the place.
There was a damsel in distress named Christine.
Box #5 is famous.

The mysterious phantom that lived in the Opera House frequently used the trap doors he built to access Box #5 when there was a musical performance going on. This seat is now reserved specifically for people who are willing to pay more to use it, but those audience members that do will still frequently report getting chills down their spine that they assume is the ghost of the Original Phantom.

France's Superficiality

There is a vanity in France's culture that the civilians can't escape from. Art and music are significant parts that make it up. The Phantom who was born with a deformity so severe was despised by everyone living in that nation, and so was compelled to hide himself. Because of his insanity, he preyed on Christine and groomed her to be a successful musician. It's this stalker and predatory nature that makes the audience observe with more horror and disgust.

The Phantom's creepier elements reflect the consequence of a country that is just as repulsive on the inside, as the Phantom is on the outside which also invokes sympathy.

Round 2

the_quiet_poet9

07.01.2023 03:21PM

Pro

Con's claim

Phantom of the Opera is better because it contains elements of truth and goes deeper with themes of growth, trauma, sadness, misery, isolation, and society's vanity.

Rebuttal

I agree with con's first statement that Phantom of the Opera tells a completely different story than Les Miserables. Elements of truth, however, do not necessarily make a story better; perhaps they make it more appealing to fans who are interested in history, but also dispel some of the originality of it.

And while the themes in Phantom of the Opera are all good, they do not go deeper than those in Les Miserables. See R1 argument.

Conclusion

Les Miserables is better than Phantom of the Opera because of stronger themes and characters.

Thank you for debating with me

Sir.Lancelot

07.01.2023 03:58PM

Con

(Congrats, poet. You now have Voting Privileges.)

So Phantom of The Opera tells a story about Vanity & Isolation.

The themes of a person's metaphorical exile speaks layers to the special privileges aristocratic, wealthy, or beautiful people receive and how poorly those at the bottom are. It shows us that deep down, humanity is not as good as it pretends to be.

And that equality exists only in imagination.

Sir.Lancelot

07.01.2023 07:11PM

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@Barney

This part of the vote got me laughing.:

"And while I'll call BS on the historical angles and talk of a real ghost, said BS set the scene quite well and went unchallenged."

Thanks for the vote!

Barney

07.01.2023 07:09PM

Got to say, the novel for The Phantom, while it needed a good editor, OMG some of the stuff that went on in it... Raul in his great devotion to Christine, stayed up at night murdering cats... WTF?

Poor girl, I'm team stay single.

the_quiet_poet9

06.29.2023 07:01PM

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@DavidAZ

The Les Miserables book is so good! It is one of my favorites. I do like the Phantom music, but not as much as that of Les Miserables. I like Joseph as well.

Sir.Lancelot

06.29.2023 03:24PM

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@DavidAZ

The Phantom novel is so much darker than any of its musical adaptations.

DavidAZ

06.29.2023 02:55PM

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@the_quiet_poet9

As far as I know, the Phantom is only a musical. Les Mes is a book turned musical. I haven't actually read the book, but listened to audio drama that was 5 CD's long. Really good.

I did enjoy Phantom better than the Les Mes musical though. I like Andrew Llyod Webber's music like Phantom (favorite), Joseph(next favorite), Cats (not as much), Evita (good).

the_quiet_poet9

06.29.2023 01:37PM

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@DavidAZ

Yes, I haven't read the Phantom of the Opera. Have you read either of the books?

DavidAZ

06.28.2023 08:56PM

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@the_quiet_poet9

Ooh. This would be a hard one.

Are you only talking about musicals?

Barney

07.01.2023 07:06PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Nice short debate.

The way the debaters argued this reminded me of sociology vs psychology, or macro- vs micro-economics.

While this gets over applied to writing, the beginner rule of show don't tell comes up. Pro tells us that Les Mis has more and better characters, and yet only names Jean Valjean; along with it showcasing 1830's France... But what about 1830's France? And How did Jean Valjean reform? Right now, he's no better defined than Christine.
One of the few notes is that it's longer, which gives more time for character growth but not how it actually took advantage of that.

The Phantom by contrast has details about the lead character and his actions... At least enough to spur an emotional response.
Plus the details on the opera house made that seem like an additional character. And while I'll call BS on the historical angles and talk of a real ghost, said BS set the scene quite well and went unchallenged.

Without more to go on, the Phantom easily takes the win.

...

Side note: Length can be a tricky thing. Die Walküre takes 5 hours, What's Opera, Doc? Retold it in 7 minutes and IMHO did it far better.
https://vimeo.com/444002896