I will look at those videos later. I will remind voters that Pro has a heavier BoP, but nonetheless, I'll prove my part. Moving on.
I would disagree that Kreia is a "gray Jedi". I believe she is in fact, a "dark Jedi". Do note I am not calling her Sith, but a "darker" version of the Jedi. I said this before, but Sith really don't remember why they fell. Kreia does, as did Revan.
Pro: "The force is not light or dark, it is just the force, so the notion that the Jedi want balance and harmony is incorrect..."
I will note that this isn't Canon, and hasn't ever. There has been places dark in the force, such as Korriban, and times where light/dark side has affected people differently, such as appearances in the KOTOR games. Although, it is important that this is irrelevant, as we are talking about the Jedi and Sith, so this doesn't address my point. Pro also says that the Sith want people to stop using the Force for their own purposes. This is false. Kreia, although how ambiguous she can be, made it abundantly clear that the Sith are even worse than the Jedi in this regard. For example, Sion lives on through the Force. If he just gives up, he dies, and he admits as such and we see him die by this way. Nihilus, in the same game as Kreia and Sion, is similar to Sion in that he relies on the Force to feed him and is a slave to it. The big reason Kreia cares for the Exile is because she could live without the Force. The reason the Jedi "steal" babies, is because the Sith almost always makes the Galaxy a worse place. Pro gives no evidence that the Sith are any better and that the Galactic Empire, was, in fact, very ineffective. Even military matters, they were incompetent. Consider:
https://angrystaffofficer.com/2017/07/10/warfighter-hoth/This is a blog by a US Army Officer. In this entry, he gives reasons why the Empire could have beaten the Rebels at Hoth, but in fact failed so hard, Rebels may have been able to
win at Hoth. To recap Hoth, the Rebels are hidden on a icy and somewhat mountainous planet called Hoth. The Rebels have the Ion cannon, which was vital in their escape, and a shield generator. They are hidden in a valley, flanked by mountains. The Empire eventually found them. And what did they do? Send top heavy, slow and somewhat inefficient ATAT walkers at them. Had the Rebels set up traps, mines etc, the Empire would have lose so much, it would have been a victory for the Rebels. Vader also killed a high ranking Imperial officer, weakening the Empire further. The Empire had no air cover. To say that the Empire is efficient is far from the truth. Pro also says that the Empire left alone people. I assume Pro means "humans" because aliens were generally mistreated no matter what. For example, (
https://www.starwars.com/news/barely-tolerable-alien-henchmen-of-the-empire-part-1) while Thrawn was important in the Empire, they source still noted he was an enigma and that the Empire was a bad place to live in if you were different. So, not only did I prove that the Galaxy is better under the Jedi, it is much, much worse under the Sith
Pro: "This is a sweeping oversimplification." On how the Jedi are selfless and Sith selfish.
It truly isn't. If it is, then generally Jedi are selfless, which is much better for Pro. For example, in KOTOR, all the dark side options involve doing evil or immoral things, such as kill for whatever reason, and often no reason at all. Jedi options, however, involve giving credits to NPCs, and other generally kind thing to do. The same applies to KOTOR 2, although it is a little gray. Then Pro says something interesting. He basically goes, "the Sith aren't selfish, they just thing about only themselves". Pro says the Sith can be anything, but I proven that the Sith are "trapped" by their emotions and then there are Sith like Vader, who was pretty much Palps lapdog. There are Sith like Nihilus and Sion, all were slaves to the dark side. So Pro is wrong here.
On the value of life, Pro says this:
There is no basis for this assertion.
The Jedi code on the other hand tells you to be a robot.
Vader killed his men quite a bit. He didn't trust them, and probably killed more off screen. They regard almost no one. I disagree that the Sith code says to be free and follow their passions. Almost all the Sith been blatantly evil, we don't see them ever be free. Vader wasn't. Sion wasn't. Vader isn't free because he fell, and he went out of his way to make other life's worse. We see a NPC on Korriban in KOTOR basically say that the Sith don't have compassion for others. Uthar kills a pupil in the Sith Academy, and said that it is normal to kill other Sith. Also, Pro: "The Sith have regard for whatever they personally regard." This can be treated as a concession, as Pro admitted they are selfish.
If I handed you a lightsaber and sent you back to the 1820s would you start freeing slaves? I doubt it.
Would you? Imagine how America was back then. Imagine how many will struggle to survive. Also irrelevant and dropped my point.
Wrong, Anakin thought she was cheating with Obi Wan so he choked her a bit but specifically made sure not to kill her. Keep in mind for Anakin this was like finding out your older brother has been boning your wife. Padme died from emotional shock plus the stress of childbirth overriding her nervous system and causing her to shut down.
I don't believe he ever thought that. I believe he thought that Padme betrayed him, but not in the sense of love. Anakin had a moment of black and white thinking, and had he had control of his feelings, he would have not killed Padme. He wanted to protect Padme, and this led to his fall the the dark side.
https://www.starwars.com/news/6-of-palpatines-key-manipulations
Here, a official source states that Sidious abused Anakin's fear of Padme dying to turn him to the dark side. This is why he fell, it is canon. Anakin was already Sith when he attacked/killed Padme. And he was wrong to assume Padme was cheating on him. Fear, jealousy, all these emotions caused trouble for Anakin. The Council was horrible, but the "control your emotions" was spot on.
Secondly, Anakin was considered a hero both by the republic and the empire. He was a war hero both as Anakin and Vader who saved countless lives.
(This source also says that Palps manipulated Anakin into having Padme dying dreams)
Anakin had real problems, but this doesn't address to what I said. This video basically says that Anakin was manipulated by a evil old man and played to his emotions. The video also says Sidious was evil. Then the video says that Anakin had a horrible life after and lost anything and it's his emotions and Sidious's fault. Vadar also ordered Aldaraan's destruction. He did evil things and I doubt Pro would call someone like Himmler from the Nazi army good because he saved a bunch of Nazi soldiers's lives and was a war hero, as even war heroes can be evil.
Anakin killing those younglings was the equivalent of killing a bunch of 8 year olds who were bred to be emotionless terrorists from birth by ISIS. They where emotionless little monsters who were systematically conditioned to be psychopaths.
Anakin had emotions. And did the younglings ever say they wanted to be killed? And over the Canon, Jedi enjoy their lives and it vastly improved their lives. Even if this is truth, Anakin did not kill them in mercy. Even then, why didn't Anakin take them in? Voter's, answer this question.
Vader choked a officer for calling the Force wizard powers basically. Not sure if he killed him though. Vader killed a Rebel soldier at the beginning, and they movie clearly paints it as evil, but he wasn't Sith or part of the Empire. Vadar also killed the Admiral who was supposed to lead in Hoth, but that would lead to thousands of soldiers lost at Hoth. Vadar liked to kill failing officers. Why didn't he replace them? Because he's evil.
In this debate: I have proven that the Empire was a worst place to live in as an alien
That Vadar was responsible for billions of deaths
That Sidious was responsible for Anakin's fall
And that, generally, the Sith are pretty fucking evil.
Ergo, the Sith fit the Evil definition more, and Jedi, Good. Pro did not have much in the way of sources, while I had official sources and those with military background for the Hoth snippet.
Vote for Earth.
This actually explains the left and right political ideologies very well. It is surprising how similar science fiction/fantasy is to real life. Although, Disney would not agree with this assessment, believe it or not, but the Sith are the left and the Jedi are the right. Unfortunately, they purchased the rights to SW after it was a hit and there is no going back.
It is not good to go off emotion, because you cannot weigh the consequences of your actions, think clearly, cognitively, or critically.
That is why jurors who have some sort of emotional attachment to the plaintiff or the defendant are never selected.
This debate is straight up catnip for a Star Wars geek. Lovin' it.
Honestly you've both been contributing some interesting and worthy arguments.