Instigator / Pro

Americandebater24

1442

rating

debates

58.65%

won

Topic

#4496

Donald Trump is responsible for the January 6th insurrection

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 3 votes and with 19 points ahead, the winner is...

Americandebater24

Tags

Politics

Parameters

Publication date: 05.18.2023 05:52PM
Last updated date: 06.14.2023 09:03PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 29,998
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

faris

1500

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

Americandebater24

05.21.2023 09:04PM

Pro

I would like to start by thanking Con for accepting this debate. I am sure it will be an interesting discussion.

Opening statement: January 6th was a tragic day in American history. It was a day that many misguided Americans rose up in insurrection in the name of former president Donold J Trump. Trump refused to accept the reality that he had lost the 2020 election fair and square and because he did not wish to lose his position of power, he organized the January 6 Rally and inflamed his already disgruntled and angry follower's into committing the unspeakable crime of insurrection. He did nothing to stop them, which not only cost many people their lives, it has also tarnished the reputation of America for decades to come.

First argument: The first thing that must be established is intent, we must ask ourselves, "Is there enough evidence to suggest that Donold Trump organized the January 6th event to stop an election and to cause insurrection?" My argument is yes. Following trumps defeat, he almost wrote to his followers on twitter to March on the Capital and to stop the electoral process that he claimed was stealing an election from him.

"I will be making a Big Speech at 10AM on January 6th at the Ellipse (South of the White House). Please arrive early, massive crowds expected. March to the Capitol after. Stop the Steal!!" https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-drafted-tweet-calling-supporters-march-us-capitol-jan-6-2022-7

While the tweet may not have officially been sent, it is clear that Trumps intentions for January 6th were not peaceful and that his intention was to goad his supporters into a frenzied mob that would march to the Capital in an effort to remain in power. in Addition to these, we also have Trump's official tweet to his followers which stated the following.

"Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election, Big protest in D.C. on January 6th, Be there, will be wild!" https://www.npr.org/2022/07/13/1111341161/how-trumps-will-be-wild-tweet-drew-rioters-to-the-capitol-on-jan-6

It is Undeniable that Trumps intentions when he called out for his supporters to meet him in Washington D.C was to create a massive riot. He knew for a fact that many of his followers believed his lie about the 2020 election being stolen, and so he used his influence to gather his supporter's and stop a fair and legitimate election, even if it meant causing an insurrection since his actions did not deter said violence but rather he instigated violence by organizing and energizing into what we know now as January 6th.

Second Argument: Not only did Donald Trump organize and plan for the January 6th event, but he also did nothing to stop it as it was ongoing. According to https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-peaceful-capitol/ Trump may have tweeted at some point asking his supporters to remain peaceful, he did this only after January 6th had failed.

"Trump did tweet to his supporters to "remain peaceful." However, the meme lacks important context. The tweets were posted after the violence of the day had already begun. Further, the tweets came many months after Trump baselessly predicted that the 2020 U.S. presidential election would involve massive voter fraud."

Trump went on to further lie about his lack of efforts to intervene in the Insurrection by falsely claiming that Nancy Pelosi rejected Donald's offer for ten thousand troops. According to https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/12/16/fact-check-no-trump-request-10000-guard-troops-jan-6/8929215002/ Trump made the claim by stating the following.

“I recommended 10 but I said do whatever they want, they’re running the Capitol, they know what they’re doing,” Trump says in the video. “And the Capitol police knew about it, she (Pelosi) knew about it, and they turned it down because they said it didn’t look good.”

However there was in fact no record of any requests despite Trump claiming otherwise According to the same Article.

"Drew Hammill, Pelosi's spokesperson, told USA TODAY that Pelosi’s office was not consulted or contacted regarding any request for the National Guard ahead of Jan. 6, and he noted the speaker of the House does not have the power to reject that type of request."

This evidence not only establishes that Trump is a liar, but also that he never had any intention of assisting in the prevention of January 6th. He wanted the Capital to be vulnerable to attack and he organized it so that is exactly what happened.

Final argument: Trump organized January 6th, he used inciteful language to rally his supporters into violence, and motivated them by deceiving his followers to believe that they were stopping a crime, and most damaging of all did nothing to stop their violent actions and later lied about this inaction to distance himself of the crimes he helped commit. In reality Trump himself was and still is the man responsible for the January 6th event. There is no January 6th without Donold Trumps lie of a stolen election, and his refusal to deploy troops and dishonestly over not doing so not only adds to his guilt and duplicity in such a monstrous crime, but it also highlights his character as a man who will commit any crime to pursue his goals even at the expense of Americans. Donald J trump is responsible for the January 6th tragedy no matter how one may feel about the event itself, it is simply undeniable.

Vote Pro.

faris

05.22.2023 12:32PM

Con

First thing my opponent could have done is to define responsibility, but they left us unclear. And left us to guess what they might mean.

They instead first established the existence of intent, and If you define responsibility as Donald trump actions being the cause of 6 Jen, intent doesn't cause ever anything, for example I might have intent to kill my enemy right now, but that doesn't make it happen without action or whatsoever.

If you mean by responsibility as a man who is conscious of his decisions and conscious of the bad result of them, establishing intent isn't enough: trump wanted to stop a steal of the election, but did he know that individual people in politics would be physically and emotionally hurt? I get it, your evidence shows he was aware that his actions would cause riot, but it doesn't show any other awareness or all other awareness. Until you prove that Trump had awareness of the hurt he would cause, by this definition he is not responsible for all outcomes.

If you define responsibility is that [1] Donald trump have control over his actions and [2] he made these actions, you have more to prove, you have to prove that Donald trump or any of us are free. If we are not In control of our actions, we can't be held responsible by this definition.

So what's your definition, pro?

Round 2

Americandebater24

05.22.2023 02:09PM

Pro

First argument: Con argues that I did not define responsibility, but this is a pointless counter argument because this a debate, not a linguistic or English class. If Con did not understand the definition of responsibility prior to the debate then that is their fault. I as pro am not required to teach said word and its meaning especially when the context of my usage of that word responsibility and overall statements make it clear that I am referring to responsibility by its basic definition which is "the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something." I made this abundantly clear by establishing intent and the fact that I said Trumps guilt is undeniable. Therefore, con is incorrect that I did not properly define responsibility.

Second argument: Con admits that Donald Trump was aware that his actions would cause a riot, but also tries to argue that Trump was not aware of the damage he would cause. This makes no sense. That is like saying "Yes, Adolf Hitler knew his actions would cause a genocide, but there's no evidence that he was aware how many people would die." If you acknowledge that the person being accused of committing an action did indeed do so with awareness with what they were doing. You cannot claim at the same time that they were not aware of the full scope of the consequence's their actions would cause. For that is both contradictory and is irrelevant to the fact they are still responsible even if said argument were true.

Last argument: None of the evidence I have presented has been denied. Con even admits that Trump is guilty to a degree and that he was intentionally trying to cause a riot. Clearly since this riot attacked our nations capital which is why its known as an insurrection. Con has admitted albeit indirectly, that trump is guilty of causing an insurrection. The only defense Con has offered so far is a false claim that I have not properly defined responsibility and that if we cannot establish being in control of our actions then Trump cannot be held responsible. I have already debunked the former and as for the latter, this is a diversion tactic on Con's part. The debate is not over the philosophy of free will or conscious thought. It is whether or not Donold Trump is responsible for the insurrection of January 6th. In which I have established intent, provided evidence which has yet to be refuted, and its been conceded by my opponent that intent to commit the crime has been proven. Thus as I said before, Trumps guilt is undeniable.

Vote Pro.

faris

05.25.2023 02:09PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 3

Americandebater24

05.25.2023 02:39PM

Pro

Since my opponent as fortified the last round, I will provide no further argument as I believe that I have establish my stance sufficiently in this debate. I will respond when Con can address or make a counter-argument to the points I mentioned previously,

Vote Pro.

faris

05.28.2023 02:39PM

Con

Forfeited

Round 4

Americandebater24

05.28.2023 09:03PM

Pro

since my opponent no longer seems interested in this debate I would say I win by having the stronger argument.

vote pro.

faris

05.31.2023 09:03PM

Con

Forfeited

John00

05.28.2023 09:15PM

Surely an insurrection would have had to have occurred for Trump to be responsible.

Intelligence_06

05.21.2023 09:34AM

Is responsibility possible to be assigned?

TheApprentice

05.21.2023 06:36AM

What does it mean to be “responsible” for something?

DavidAZ

06.08.2023 03:34PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con did a FF

Lemming

06.07.2023 05:54PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Pro made the argument that Trump did not accept defeat,
Made the argument that he encouraged his followers to march to the capital,

Con makes the argument that Pro needs to define responsibility,
And states Pro must prove Trump had both intent and actions.

Which Pro 'does have the actions of Trump that lead to the even, intended or not,
Though even without intention,
Being careless with power, a person still bears at least 'some responsibility.
(But without intention is my argument, not Pros)

Pro's argument is more about 'magnitude,
Than realization of end result,
Though it's a bit gray, protest, riot, insurrection,
Like tap, a push, a shove, a hit.

Regardless,
Pro argues that people have a common understanding of responsibility,
And that Trumps understanding of the event was implicit in his tweet (Round 1)

Cons argument around free will 'would derail a lot of debates,
Which is why people generally just assume free will,
Well, or responsibility free will or not,
But point is it's a sidestep.

I suppose Con could have argued Trump had no intent for an 'insurrection,
That he can only be held partially responsible for other's actions,
That he told them to leave (Eventually)

Con might have also argued it was not 'truly an 'insurrection,
But they didn't stick around.

But even if the debate had continued,
There are numerous events Pro could have used to argue his position.

Pro made their arguments, backed with sources, argued against Con's 1 round of arguments, stuck through the debate,
Arguments, sources, conduct to Pro.

. . .
If you read this vote this far, and are able to vote on this site,
Whether for me or against me,
Consider voting on a debate I'm in,
https://www.debateart.com/debates/4497-ought-be-a-legal-right-to-dueling

Savant

05.31.2023 09:10PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Full forfeit