Disney/Anime: Tragic Character Clash.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,500
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
On-balance.
Pro will argue Anakin Skywalker is the most tragic character in fiction. In Round 1, Con chooses a character from any series in anime and argue theirs is the most tragic.
The suggested intro format for round 1 will be.:
Character Name-
Personality-
Series-
Themes-
Backstory-
Archetype-
Definitions:
Tragic Character- The protagonist of a tragic story or drama, in which, despite their virtuous and sympathetic traits and ambitions, they ultimately meet defeat, suffering, or even an untimely end.
Rounds
1. Only introduction format arguments in Round 1. No rebuttals.
2. Constructive arguments/rebuttals.
3. Constructive arguments/rebuttals
4. Rebuttals
5. Closing arguments/rebuttals
(If Con wishes, I’ll make any changes.)
I look forward to the discussion, whiteflame!
Personality: Kiritsugu is brooding and conflicted. He seeks a utopia for the world and is willing to do anything to achieve it. His victories are merely means to an end – he’s battle-hardened, taking no joy in victory.
Series: Fate/Zero and, to a lesser extent, Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works
Backstory: Kiritsugu’s mother died shortly after his birth and he spent much of his childhood on the run from the Mage’s Association with his father. In one of the few places they stayed for a while, he became friends and fell in love with a young girl, who subsequently became a vampire due to Kiritsugu’s father’s work. Though he had the chance to kill her, Kiritsugu refused. The result was that the village was wiped out, Kiritsugu killed his father, and was taken in by a freelancer named Natalia.
Archetype: Anti-Hero, Jaded Lead, Utopian/Perseverer, the Martyr
- “Yoda’s clocks in at 17,700, and Darth Sidious is estimated to be about 20,000.”
- “Anakin Skywalker is said to have had the largest Midi-chlorian count in Jedi history, which is around 28,000 to 30,000, with George Lucas insinuating it could be as high as 40,000.”
- Anakin has just dealt with the death of his mother, someone he could have saved if he had acted fast enough according to his visions.
- Now having dealt with tragedy, those same feelings and visions return to threaten Anakin to take quicker action to stop his wife from dying.
- The vision is of Padme dying during childbirth. Anakin cannot confess this to Yoda because in doing so, he reveals he is married and that he has broken the Jedi Code and will promptly be expelled.
- Anakin isn’t looking for emotional counseling to get over his feelings, he is seeking advice to stop the visions in his dreams from playing out in the future.
- Yoda is over 900 years old. He has outlived many friends and students, so death is just another Tuesday for him.
- A few centuries of experience of counseling and leading Jedi meant he should have been more sympathetic to Anakin and better able to communicate with him.
- He realizes Anakin is young and has not lived long enough to realize what must be done with such strong emotions.
“1) Tragedies inflicted by the character themselves, particularly self-inflicted tragedies or those on their loved ones, outweigh those inflicted externally.”
- Defying Mace Windu’s order and then chopping off Mace’s arm to save Darth Sidious’s life was when it was too late to turn back. 1 It is also when Anakin gets officially renamed Darth Vader. Sidious urges Vader that they must hurry before the Jedi learn of their treachery and kill them both.
- So Vader proceeds to the Jedi Temple with his first order of Order 66 (operation to eliminate all the Jedi) which is to kill anyone at the Jedi temple. His first victims are children and any of the other jedi present. 2
- When Anakin’s wife Padme confronts him about his genocide and he spots Obi-Wan, he assumes he has been set up by his partner to be ambushed, so he force-chokes her in anger. 3
- After trying and failing to kill Obi-Wan, he is sliced in half and abandoned by his former master to burn alive. This severing of Anakin’s limbs reduced his power potential and the burning caused irreparable damage that confined him to a cybernetic suit the rest of his life. 4
“2) Tragedies that result in anagnorisis outweigh those where the character learns nothing.When the character sees the error of their ways and its ramifications, it is a moment of anagnorisis.[2] Understanding that one was responsible for a given negative outcome and seeking some form of redemption demonstrate that the harm goes deeper than just how the character was affected by the tragedy; they know they did wrong and have a desire to address it.”
“3) Tragedies that result in greater punishment than what is apparently warranted outweigh those with lesser punishments.”
- His seemingly prolonged suffering shares a symbiotic relationship with his crime. The more pain he feels, the more others suffer.
- When Vader was first burnt on Mustafar, Sidious could have minimized the damage by having his skin and organs replaced.
- Sidious WANTED him to suffer, so he deliberately chose the most painful suit ever that would be enough to sustain him, but not heal him.
- Instead of receiving an organic transplant, Vader received synthetic skin. But the artificial flesh is constantly decaying, so Vader constantly has to undergo painful surgery to get it replaced so he doesn’t die from an infection.
- Vader committed genocide in front of Obi-Wan just to lure him out of hiding. Obi-Wan asks his former apprentice what he has become and Vader replies that he is what Obi-Wan made him.
- The fight proceeds with Obi-Wan retreating and then Vader eventually igniting a fire and scorching Obi-Wan out of revenge for leaving him to burn all those years back.
- He ran from Shirley rather than killing her as requested, resulting in her death and those of everyone in the village. He then killed his father, partially out of vengeance for Shirley and the village and partially because he posed a continued threat to others.
- He went with Natalia, knowing that doing so will turn him into a killer. He shot down Natalia’s plane without direction.
- He met and fell in love with Iris, choosing to have a child with her despite knowing she would die and he would estrange his child.
- He used and discarded Maiya.
- He killed numerous Mages.
- He sought the Holy Grail to achieve his utopia, then chose to destroy it against the wishes of every other party involved.
- As Pro put it, “Anakin’s tragedy was planned from the beginning.”
- He followed Sidious’s direction when he cut off Mace’s arm leading to his death, just as he did when he killed Dooku.[1] Even the murder of the younglings is driven entirely by Sidious’s orders - it was part of Order 66.
- Sidious used Anakin’s drive to keep Padme safe as fuel to drive him to the Dark Side. He then stokes Anakin’s anger and despair by telling him that he killed Padme in his anger, and those feelings and impulses typify Anakin going forward.
- More than just emotionally, Anakin became Sidious’s puppet after receiving his cybernetic suit, whether because of the threat of violent reprisal from Sidious or his need for regular skin transplants. Any choice Anakin made past this point that helps Sidious was no longer his alone.
- Pro also brought up a scene where Yoda essentially tells Anakin to “get over it” with regards to his fears and nightmares. Yoda made Anakin feel like he was an outsider within the Jedi Order making him, as Pro put it, “vulnerable to the Devil’s manipulation.”
- But Obi-Wan did far worse. Obi-Wan actively pushed Anakin to drop his attachment to Padme [2] and, in their fateful encounter on Mustafar, he chose not to be merciful and instead subjected Anakin to a slow, torturous near-death, actions that drove him away from the Jedi and solidified his resolve as a Sith, respectively.[3]
- Anakin had no control whatsoever over the burden of his high midichlorian count or his status as “the Chosen One,” yet these factors ensured that he was destined to bring balance to the force. If his destiny was already decided based on factors beyond his control, it cannot be said that he had full autonomy in his actions.
- When he refused to end Shirley’s life, his sense of responsibility for the resulting deaths drove him to patricide and to kill others who would constitute a similar threat with Natalia’s help, eventually resulting in his pseudo-matricide. This also became the foundation for an ideal that he would carry to the Holy Grail.
- His ongoing battle with self-hatred shows his continued remorse for every action he takes, which plays out in self-destructive behaviors such as distancing himself from his family and training Maiya to join in his suffering as his lover and confidant.
- He tried to repent when faced with the knowledge that the realization of his ideal would also murder countless people. Even in that effort, the damage he caused led him to dig through burning rubble to find survivors, searching for any glimmer of hope in that despair.
- His murder of the younglings
- Hunting down and killing Jedi like Obi-Wan
- The capture, imprisonment and torture of his daughter Leia
- The dismemberment of his son Luke
- Killing untold numbers of rebels
- The destruction of multiple planets (Despayre, Alderaan), inhabited moons (Jedha) and cities (Scarif)[4]
- Being judge, jury and executioner for a variety of Magi including his father
- The harms he inflicted on those closest to him including Iris, Illya and Maiya
- The decisions that ended untold lives on Alimango Island and Fuyuki City, even if he did not intend to harm those people
- The first punishment results from Anakin attacking Sidious, which he did out of anger that Sidious stoked
- The second resulted from Anakin showing mercy, which may have resulted from lingering attachments to Padme (the woman was Padme’s handmaiden and body double) rather than regret
“However, Anakin showed no regret for many of the examples Pro mentions and for several that he conspicuously leaves out:
- His murder of the younglings”
“Hunting down and killing Jedi like Obi-Wan”
- “The capture, imprisonment and torture of his daughter Leia
- The dismemberment of his son Luke
- Killing untold numbers of rebels
- The destruction of multiple planets (Despayre, Alderaan), inhabited moons (Jedha) and cities (Scarif)[4]”
“C3. Punishment vs. Crimea. KiritsuguKiritsugu was guilty of numerous acts of barbarity, including:
- Being judge, jury and executioner for a variety of Magi including his father
- The harms he inflicted on those closest to him including Iris, Illya and Maiya
- The decisions that ended untold lives on Alimango Island and Fuyuki City, even if he did not intend to harm those people
His punishment was continuous suffering featuring self-loathing, putting his body and life on the line for his ideal, the death of his wife, rejection by his daughter, and a curse that brought him weakness and pain after the Fourth Holy Grail ended. At an existential level, it cost him his reason for moving forward, the very drive that had brought him to fight for the Holy Grail in the first place. He burned his dreams along with them when he destroyed the Grail. If it is possible for a man to suffer more for these crimes, I don’t know how.”
- Cutting off Mace Windu’s arm, eradicating his own community in Order 66.
- Force-choking his wife Padme and trying to kill his former mentor Obi-Wan and then becoming an amputee with fourth degree burns everywhere.
- Being led to believe that his actions killed his wife, and then being forced into becoming the galaxy’s biggest hitman.
“b. AnakinI’ve already covered Anakin’s crimes, and while their scale is certainly larger, other aspects of his crimes that set him apart, particularly as they relate to when his punishments occurred and what they were punishing. Obi-Wan’s first and second duels with Anakin and the resulting damage are certainly punishment, but much as the damage of the first was particularly horrific, at best, it functions as punishment for everything up to that point. For everything that happens afterward, Pro has provided a total of three punishments, all of which were inflicted by Sidious.Every action Sidious takes to harm him functions largely as a means to exert control over Anakin, both by actively harming him and by increasing his dependence on Sidious’s resources.
- The first punishment results from Anakin attacking Sidious, which he did out of anger that Sidious stoked
- The second resulted from Anakin showing mercy, which may have resulted from lingering attachments to Padme (the woman was Padme’s handmaiden and body double) rather than regret
The aim of both punishments was to ensure that Anakin knew his place. These weren’t punishments for his crimes - if anything, they were punishment for challenging Sidious’s authority.While Sidious also inflicted the third punishment to punish his disloyalty - Force lightning that ended his life - the difference is that taking this action was also him taking responsibility for his crimes, particularly one of them was writhing in pain on the floor in front of him. His pain and death were punishment for the crime of working for Sidious and trying to kill Luke. That being said, aside from the duel on Mustafar, this is his big punishment for his crimes, and… yeah, I’d say his crimes were worth more than just one moment of redemption, no matter how meaningful.”
- Requires the respirator to support his breathing and cannot live for long without it otherwise.
- Cannot eat or drink regular foods anymore, and has to rely on intravenous feeding for the rest of his life.
- The suit is lame and lacks flexibility. While it compensates for its lack of mobility with brute strength, it doesn’t change the fact that the suit’s weight and structure makes Vader clumsy and slow. He cannot lift a lightsaber over his shoulders without causing a huge burden of pain on himself.
- The suit’s respirator is put on his chest-plate, making it an obvious weakness in fights. And the insertion of needles puts Anakin in pain.
“III. ConclusionOn each of these elements, Kiritsugu’s tragedies outweigh Anakin’s.While the vast majority of Kiritsugu’s tragedy resulted from his choices and actions, Anakin’s tragedy was molded by the choices and actions of others.Kiritsugu also demonstrated anagnorisis throughout the events of Fate/Zero, repeatedly recognizing his failings. This was also reflected in his punishment, as both those that are self-inflicted and externally imposed are placed in response to his crimes and take place over much of the series.Anakin showed limited remorse for his actions, and regardless of his ability to make those choices, the lack of anagnorisis throughout much of his character arc limited his capacity to evoke tragedy from some of his most despicable actions. Anakin suffered for some of his choices, but he faced no punishment for many of his actions. He truly believed, as he did when he helped found it, that he “brought peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire.”[6] He did not suffer more than he deserved, and his redemption was surface level at best.”
1) Tragedies inflicted by the character themselves, particularly self-inflicted tragedies or those on their loved ones, outweigh those inflicted externally.It’s tragic when someone is hit by lightning or ends up victim to a terrorist attack because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but those circumstances are tragic, and would be equally for anyone. Character tragedy is necessarily character-driven, meaning in some way precipitated or actively caused by the character. The more their decisions affect that tragedy, the more tragic it becomes.
- First, as Pro does not cover Kiritsugu’s physical pain and mental suffering, all he manages to do is show that Anakin suffered, not that Kiritsugu suffered less. I’ve provided ample evidence that Kiritsugu suffered plenty.
- Second, suffering ≠ tragedy. Suffering can be tragic, but what makes it tragic is the character both recognizing that they are the source of that suffering and acting in a way that shows that the character has learned something from it. Kiritsugu exhibited obvious regret, remorse and redemption for many of his actions in Fate/Zero. He didn’t just feel bad about what he’d done - he acted in a way that demonstrated he understood the flaw in his thinking and was seeking to change his future actions accordingly. He sought redemption by repenting for his past failures.
- By contrast, Pro concedes that Anakin functioned solely as an enforcer of the tragedies that Sidious causes. Pro argues not just that Anakin didn’t redeem himself, but that he couldn’t. He was incapable of demonstrating anagnorisis. Considering that the Empire was inspired by Nazi Germany,[1] this argument fits… insofar as it’s akin to saying that Adolf Eichmann’s argument that he and other officers were “forced to serve as mere instruments” makes them tragic.[2] There is nothing tragic about shifting responsibility.
- Additionally, this line of logic only makes Kiritsugu more tragic, since he was also faced with opponents who were stronger than him and his allies. He sought and obtained his redemption despite the odds being entirely against him (facing down Gilgamesh, the strongest Servant,[3] and Kirei Kotomine, a powerful Mage who terrified him[4]). Kiritsugu also takes full responsibility for his actions, enduring extended physical pain and debilitation for his actions (not just because someone else wanted him to suffer in order to control him), as well as mental suffering that stems from every choice he made.
- First, Anakin wasn’t going to make a different set of choices. Events beyond his control conspired against him, which made choosing another set of options seem impossible to him. Whether that’s his enslavement from birth, his mother’s death, the Jedi Order telling him to get over his feelings for Padme, his destiny as “The Chosen One” and all the expectations that came with it, the Emperor stoking his anger and frustration to his own ends, or the physical and mental torture the Emperor used to force his loyalty, the notion that Anakin would have acted differently simply because he could have is nothing but a pipe dream.
- Second, this argument implies we know the outcome if a given choice or set of choices were made differently. Anakin, a skilled Force user, suddenly leaving the Jedi Order because he told them about his love for Padme is still dangerous and vulnerable to manipulation, since Padme is still vulnerable. An Anakin that escaped Mustafar unscathed may go on to lead the Empire himself as Sidious’s equal or superior, continuing to believe that he was bringing “peace, freedom, justice and security to [his] Empire”[5] as he extended his brutal campaign as an even more powerful Sith lord. Pro wants you to believe that there was a “good ending” for Anakin if things had gone differently, but even if Anakin had made different choices, there is no guarantee that things would have improved.
- Third, I can play this game. If we can consider all possible choices Anakin could have made, then we can do the same for Kiritsugu. He could have opted out of the Fourth Holy Grail War entirely, sabotaging efforts to start it, potentially saving the life of his wife and living a peaceful, loving life with his daughter. Even if he joined it, he could have opted to use the Grail for a positive and easily obtainable wish, sparing others from a large tragedy and him from the curse of the Grail. And they all lived happily ever after. If opportunity costs make a character tragic, then our characters are equally tragic in that regard.
- Anakin ignores Yoda’s advice and turns to the Dark Side.
- Anakin’s slaughter of the Younglings, Jedi, and Separatists.
- Anakin’s decision to force-choke his wife and try to kill his former mentor Obi-Wan.
- Anakin disregards Obi-Wan’s warning to not counter the High Ground and then ends up a permanent amputee.
- Anakin/Vader attempting to undo the murder of his wife by trying and failing to resurrect her.
- Vader sparing Padme’s handmaiden and the Rebels.
- Vader’s constant attempts to overthrow Palpatine.
- Losing everyone & everything you care about, including the potential to defeat the universe’s greatest evil, as well as becoming a servant to that evil.
- Becoming an amputee with cybernetic prosthetics instead of organic replacements.
- Not being able to eat, drink, or breathe normally. Having to always rely on IV nourishment and a respirator that pumps oxygen into your lungs for you.
- Wearing a heavy and constricting suit that constantly inflicts pain on the body 24/7 and causes clumsiness and mobility issues in battle.
- Instead of receiving organic skin transplants, getting artificial skin transfusion and then constantly undergoing painful surgeries to ensure the flesh doesn’t rot and cause death to the body from an infection.
“It doesn’t matter what is behind the circumstance because it always results in the same outcome: someone or something else is the source of the tragedy, not the character. That circumstance is tragic, but it does not make the character tragic. I’ve already established that being in control makes a given choice more tragic because when they’re the sole cause of the harms they inflict, the tragedy lies solely on them.
“II. KiritsuguPro hasn’t covered specifics about Kiritsugu in his arguments. Every comparison he has made to Kiritsugu is a generalization, and in each case he provides no evidence. As for his few comparative claims, Pro argues that Sidious exerted control over Anakin’s actions in a way that no character did for Kiritsugu. Some responses.”
- Anakin’s losses are greater than that of Kiritsugu’s.
- The expectations of Anakin are higher than Kiritsugu’s.
- “Suffering can be tragic, but what makes it tragic is the character both recognizing that they are the source of that suffering and acting in a way that shows that the character has learned something from it. Kiritsugu exhibited obvious regret, remorse and redemption for many of his actions in Fate/Zero. He didn’t just feel bad about what he’d done - he acted in a way that demonstrated he understood the flaw in his thinking and was seeking to change his future actions accordingly. He sought redemption by repenting for his past failures.
- Pro argues not just that Anakin didn’t redeem himself, but that he couldn’t. He was incapable of demonstrating anagnorisis.
- this line of logic only makes Kiritsugu more tragic, since he was faced with opponents who were stronger than him and his allies. He sought and obtained his redemption despite the odds being entirely against him (facing down Gilgamesh, the strongest Servant,[3] and Kirei Kotomine, a powerful Mage who terrified him[4]). Kiritsugu also takes full responsibility for his actions, enduring extended physical pain and debilitation for his actions, as well as mental suffering that stems from every choice he made.”
“2. AnakinApart from the aforementioned “it’s all Sidious’s fault” argument and focusing on Anakin’s suffering, Pro’s points focus on two factors of Anakin’s character that he believes are tragic: the opportunities he missed or refused to take, and some isolated instances of remorse.Pro argues that because the possibility exists that Anakin could have acted differently, resulting in better outcomes for him and others, that makes him tragic.
- Anakin deciding to continue with acting upon his visions and saving Sidious’s life, believing he can rescue Padme is ultimately what doomed him. 2
- But if Anakin had allowed Mace Windu to slay Sidious, Anakin would have been promoted to Jedi Master and his visions of Padme dying would have never come to pass. Although, the Jedi would have the resources to save her life in the worst case scenario.
““Anakin… crying on a bridge on Mustafar” seems pretty weak compared with the mass slaughter of Force-sensitive children who trusted him to protect them. It’s also weak because it doesn’t result in any redemption..”
- Yoda himself says to Obi-Wan, “Twisted by the Dark Side, Young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is.” 4 (1:34)
- Padme says to Anakin on Mustafar, “Obi-Wan is right. You’ve changed.” 5 (2:30)
“That lack of redemption is a common thread for Anakin. By the time he visited his daughter as a Force ghost, he has lost his chance to be redeemed. It was a hollow gesture, one that was far too late and devoid of any meaningful effort. No wonder she refused to forgive him. His only real act of redemption was when he threw Sidious into the shaft of the battle station’s power core. It’s too little too late, and it also demonstrates that he was always “powerful enough to put an end to this cycle of violence” (he did this after being maimed and defeated by Luke, despite all the flaws in the suit’s design). So he always had the capacity for redemption, but up to this point, lacked the will to pursue it.
- Vader commits treason and makes many attempts to kill Sidious throughout his whole career.
Appreciate that you think so, Barney. We'll have to see how it does in the voting.
Sadly it’s a popularity contest. Still, quality can help.
What determines if a debate makes it into the Hall of Fame?
HoF material
Alas, but ah well.
Thanks for the vote, and for the extensive reasoning. I know there are a lot of different ways to measure what makes a character tragic and your points are valid. Looks like there is too little time left for me to get up a vote on your debate, unfortunately.
Thanks for the votes. ^.^
Thank you for voting, I’m glad you enjoyed the debate! I expected some pushback on the framework, so I see your point.
Cool, just wanted to be sure.
Course. I am not someone who writes the RFD in comments and this is just a remark from what is basically a SW legends fan that doesn't change how tragic Anakin was.
To be fair, Star Wars is under the Disney umbrella. I hope you'll focus on other factors if and when you vote.
The fact that someone considered Anakin a "disney" character already makes it a virtual loss. Anakin is not and will simply not be one.
When I wrote about Sidious destroying Vader’s armor and abandoning him on Mustafar, I forgot to provide a source.
https://comicnewbies.com/2020/10/18/emperor-palpatine-leaves-darth-vader-in-mustafar/amp/
https://youtu.be/HaL-O9uJAn0
Out of curiosity, who were you expecting?
You got it. Both interesting characters. I expected a different character on whiteflame's side but he sure is in the mix of tragic characters.
Could we get your guys’ vote on this when it’s finished?
Nevermind, I can accept a little earlier. I'll go by the formatting you have listed for the first round, but I'll wait to see how you write it and try to be consistent with how much detail you provide.
ok, sounds good!
Got my pick. Since you've already given yours and I have a pretty good idea of where you're going with it as a result, I'll give you mine here in the comments:
Kiritsugu Emiya from the Fate franchise.
It'll be a couple of days before I can accept, since I've got a lot on my plate through the workday Thursday. I'll accept after that.
I am absolutely down for this. Toughest part is narrowing down the options. I’ll accept once I figure it out.