Instigator / Pro
21
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4467
Legends Darth Vader is more powerful than Eren Yeager with the Founding Titan.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 14 points ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 20,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- 1,500
Contender / Con
7
1737
rating
172
debates
73.26%
won
Description
I realize this is an odd character match-up.
This debate will be considered on-balance.
So this version of Darth Vader is from Legends, but more of a hypothetical Vader. This debate assumes Vader is completely organic (with the exception of his right prosthetic arm.) and fully potentialized.
Up against Season 4 Eren Yeager with all the powers of the Founding Titan (Strongest version of Eren in the series.)
This debate will consider the term ‘Powerful’ to have two contexts, and both will be considered in the debate with equal importance.:
1st definition.: Powerful- Capability of exerting great force or overcoming strong resistance.
2nd definition.: Powerful, as in who’s more likely to overcome who in a fight to the death.
Basic References for Pro & Con:
Pro- https://deadliestfiction.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Vader_(Legends)
Con-https://attackontitan.fandom.com/wiki/Founding_Titan
Rules:
1. BOP is shared.
2. Sources and evidence can be used from any Star Wars or Attack on Titan lore. But the strength of the evidence will be graded on the accuracy of the source.
3. Voters with knowledge on both characters may share their knowledge or feedback as to how they would counter the resolution, but ultimately, all votes must be non-biased and judge only based on the arguments provided.
4. One forfeit is the loss of a conduct point. Two are an autoloss.
Round 1
Preamble
The loss of Vader’s limbs on Mustafar disconnected him from his potential, leaving him a shell of what he could have become. Even still, Vader remains one of the most powerful Force Wielders in the galaxy, rivaled only by Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Sidious.
I will defend that Vader is too OP, even for the likes of Eren Yeager with the Founding Titan by demonstrating the following.
- The default abilities of current Vader in Legends.
- Feats that Legends Vader demonstrated on special occasions.
- What Vader could have become.
- How and why the hypothetical Vader’s abilities far surpass that of the Founding Titan.
- How that version of Vader would overcome the Founding Titan.
BOP
As this is on-balance and the resolution deals with a hypothetical Vader. I win if I prove that an organic Vader with the powers of his maximum potential is greater than that of Eren Yeager’s Founding Titan. Should Con prove that the Founding Titan’s abilities succeed that of Full Potential Vader, then they win.
Default Abilities of Current Vader
Vader’s Durability & Stamina - Every person requires resting days, whether that be after a grueling workout session or a long work shift. The same is true for Force-Wielders.
Typically when going to battle, Vader will fight wars with the assistance of his allies. However when Vader badly screwed up a mission and was penalized by Palpatine, he was temporarily demoted and placed under the authority of an Imperial Governor.
The Governor was tasked with the mission of clearing an entire planet of monstrous droids. Your average security droid is 6-7 feet and relies on brute strength, but an individual monster droid was greater than that in strength. 1
Instead of sending troops or forces to eliminate the planet, the Governor sent Vader with the order to take them out all on his own. Vader obliged, and within a few days returned back to the ship. Vader had destroyed all the droids and having been fighting for several days, the only thing that sustained some damage was his armor. But Vader himself was not fatigued.
Without any recovery time, the Governor sent Vader to conquer another planet all on his own. It was a rebellious planet and the Imperial forces were on the back-foot. After the Governor selfishly commanded the Imperial troops to retreat back to their ships, Vader was left to fend for himself and did exactly that, subduing and overwhelming the enemy planet. Ultimately curb-stomping the revolt.
This might raise the question.
What does this mean for Vader?
- Vader regularly uses his rage to sustain himself and perform incredible attacks. Your standard Titan is just a giant feral humanoid with no special abilities. Vader would dispatch a legion of 1,000 to 300,000 titans through a variety of ways.:
- Force Choke. He uses his mind to crush the throat of one or several titans at once.
- Force Levitate/Push. Through channeling his Force abilities, he can simultaneously lift several titans and hurl them at each other. Or launch them a significant distance away from the battle-field that they pose no threat to him.
- Force Control. Vader is capable of controlling the titans and twisting their limbs to unnatural degrees that would render them immobile, or force them to attack each other.
Remember what I said about Vader’s stamina. He can maintain this same energy for several days without refueling himself through his Bacta healing, IV feeding, or resting. And he will not be fatigued. So time is NOT a problem for Vader. 2
Special Feats of Vader
The source of a Force Wielder’s abilities are midichlorians. Unactivated midichlorians are the powers they have yet to develop while active midichlorians are their current power. Anakin Skywalker’s midichlorian count was 27,000 which is the highest level of any Force Wielder. When he first becomes Vader in Revenge of the Sith, he still has plenty of unactivated midichlorians which means he wasn’t even close to half-way reaching his potential.
The loss of his limbs made him lose a significant amount of midichlorians, thus diminishing his potential which inevitably forces Vader to work harder on developing the power he does have. Sidious’s midichlorians are 20,000 and Current Vader is speculated to be only 80% as powerful as Sidious, putting Current Vader’s midichlorian count at 16,000. This is still considered exceptional, compared to most force wielders, but far from Vader’s ideal. 3 These are the strongest feats performed by Current Vader at 16,000 midichlorians. (But these powers are only accessible when he is at his very best, or angriest.) Vader has a Hulk-like complex where his powers grow stronger, depending on his rage.:
- Force Cloak. Vader channels the Force to make himself invisible and undetectable to his enemies. He uses this ability in Empire Strikes Back when he is first fighting Luke. 4 (0:16) Or when he fights the Rebels in A Rogue One. 5 (1:11) - (1:13)
- Energy Manipulation. Current Vader cannot channel traditional Force Lightning because the energy required is too much for his vulnerable suit to withstand as a conductor which would ultimately kill him. However, when Vader uses Force Lightning to blast Starkiller, it is different. Because Vader himself is not producing the lightning, but manipulating the Energy Fields to redirect and throw Starkiller’s own lightning back at him. 6 (20:11)
- Kinetite. Vader can produce his own version of Force-Lightning, but not the same kind as Count Dooku and Sidious. The kind they produce is steady and designed to scorch or simply shock the victim to death. Vader’s lightning is thrown in the form of a single blast that is designed to throw or launch the target, temporarily incapacitating them.
“While Force lightning as it is shown in canon burns and electrocutes its victims, Kinetite acts more as a blunt force instrument and is thrown like a solid projectile against the opposition.In Legends, again in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Vader used this move against Luke Skywalker on the planet Mimban. However, Luke, with the aid of Obi-Wan Kenobi, uncovered a weakness with Kinetite. If the target employs the Force defensively against Kinetite, the sphere can be pushed back against its caster. Interestingly, Kinetite was described as the kinetic Force sphere by Foster in Splinter of the Mind's Eye in 1978 before The Empire Strikes Back, in which Vader arguably became iconic.”
- Force Destruction. This power involves conjuring up a wave of energy or energy field that is offensively force-pushed in the direction of the target. The blast radius causes an army of enemies to perish by vaporizing on-sight.
These are all the abilities of Current Vader. Limited only by his injuries and his rage to fuel the powers. Since this is what Current Vader is capable of at his strongest, voters should know that these abilities aren’t even a warm up for a Full Potential Vader. 7
The Founding Titan can control the minds of people, but this ability would be ineffective on Current Vader. As not only can Current Vader also use mind-tricks, but force wielders with strong wills can resist it with ease. And who’s more capable of resisting mind-tricks than the angriest force-wielder alive?
“The Sith-Lord could use Telepathy, such as when he communicated with his son shortly after their duel on Bespin. Vader demonstrated the ability to drain knowledge from his opponents, such as when he discovered that Luke had a twin sister. Vader utilized mind tricks to control the minds of other sentient beings, however, it did not work on individuals who have very strong wills. He used the Mind Probe technique as a means to sift through the thought of sentient beings.”
What Vader could have become
Vader: “The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force.”
Luke Skywalker is able to grasp a black hole with the Force and destroy it, and his father’s potential is greater than that. Just what is Vader capable of?
"Luke Skywalker was able to use the Force to seize the black hole and had it suck itself into its own void.” 8 (Legends Luke.)
The Mortis Realm is the full embodiment of what a full potential Vader is capable of. The Father who is the most powerful Force God has the ability to teleport or control people’s memories. In this world, Anakin’s abilities are at their strongest even if we don’t see what they all are. Since the Mortis Gods are the most powerful beings in the universe due to being a representation of the Force itself, Anakin’s ability to subdue both the Son and the Daughter shows that a Full Potential Vader is the equivalent of a god. Equal to that of the Father.
Full Potential Vader would have the ability of shooting Force Lightning in a variety of colors, but the default being red. He could disintegrate his enemies to ash and leap or fly for lengthened amounts of time. If wounded, he could heal himself using an ability known as Force Drain.
- Force Drain - Draining the life of other beings and organisms, then absorbing it to sustain one’s own energy. A parasitic and certifiable way of immortality.
9
Why Potential Vader’s abilities exceed The Founding Titan
The Founding Titan can control the minds of the Titans and force them to fight for him, but Vader can do this too. Vader’s influence would even be greater than Eren’s, as Vader is The Chosen One. But even if the two’s abilities prove to be closer than originally thought, it would only cancel each other out.
Eren’s ability to appeal to time wouldn’t work on Vader, as Vader’s Precognition and ability to tap into the Future is absolute at this point, while Eren’s abilities are limited only to controlling the past to make history play out as it already has.
Vader can now move and destroy entire planets at this point and is literally a Mortis God but in the flesh.
“With only a glimpse of how powerful he can be, Anakin would have no one that could beat him — boasting immortality and all-power. On top of that, he would totally be comparable to Gods. Some less powerful than him can even have their knees in front of him.Could Anakin be most powerful in his full potential?Having only his raw potential, Anakin can still dominate and count the number of battles he won. That alone is already impressive. For that reason, it has a strong possibility that he could be the most powerful in the Star Wars universe.Possessing unparalleled force abilities with only his raw potential, Anakin could handle every fight and battle if he had actually reached his full potential.What would Anakin Skywalker’s full potential look like?Describing Anakin's full potential is solely based on a glimpse of his raw potential. If he actually attains full potential it will look like God's powers, making him the strongest and most powerful. Ultimately, there would be nothing that he can't accomplish.”
How Vader would overcome The Founding Titan
With practically nothing stopping him, Vader could withstand anything Eren throws at him. If Eren had the backing of a human army, Vader could zap them all with a blast of red force lightning that propels them to their deaths. Similarly, if Eren conjures up a Titan army, then Vader could drain them of their strength and use it to fuel his own abilities. From here, all the Titans would be the meal & nourishment Vader needs to accelerate his own powers. Then he could incinerate Eren.
Apologies. I was sick for the last 3 days so in this round I simply do not have enough time to type up arguments here.
Round 2
Eren’s Critical Weakness
Massive Height
Eren’s massive size in his Founding Titan form is also not an advantage, considering it greatly hinders his attacking ability through slowing him down.
It also makes him a greater target for attacks from oncoming enemies. If Eren is commanding a Titan army, it doesn’t take long for Vader’s stormtrooper army to determine the source of the attack and then Eren becomes Target #1.
Short Lifespan
Eren’s abilities are nowhere near that of a Full Potential Vader. The gap is too wide that it’s an immediate stomp for Vader.
Even if both survive the first several encounters and the question of who is more powerful turns into a matter of the deciding factor of prolonged warfare, neither time and destiny is on Eren’s side.
The critical weakness of the Founding Titan means Eren will die after 13 years.
- Yoda lived to 900 years because of his midichlorian count and mastery of the force.
- Full Potential Vader’s midichlorian count is exceptionally higher than Yoda’s. Especially his Force Mastery.
This means Full Potential Vader’s natural lifespan extends far beyond that of 900 years. (Another win for Vader.)
What does this mean for Vader?
Full Potential Vader can defeat Eren in three ways.
- He can wait him out and play Tactical Defense.
Prep time and any potential attacks from Eren are futile because Full Potential Vader’s clairvoyance will see them coming. And Vader’s abilities can stop or circumvent Eren’s forces and allow Vader and his troops to leave the fight unscathed.
- Vader can resort to his favorite method of toying with his prey.
Current Vader’s habit of making his enemies fear him has always been his favorite move. Full Potential Vader is more likely to make full use of this by launching a series of attacks on Eren that are designed to weaken him, but not kill.
Full Potential Vader’s mind-reading abilities will give him insight into Eren’s trauma, his former quick-tempered personality & propensity towards violence, and his connection to Mikasa and Armin.
Vader might kidnap them for his own amusement and to prove a point. Baiting Eren in this way will provoke him into making mistakes that Vader will take advantage of, until he gets bored. Either way, Eren will die.
- Vader goes for an immediate kill.
Full Potential Vader has no need to resort to any of the first two methods. His power is strong enough for him to kill Eren whenever he wants. While Vader could kill Eren in his Titan state, he probably just decides to kill him when he is human and his guard is down.
Eren can tap into the Future, but Vader can obscure his psychic abilities through channeling the Force to hide himself.
Forfeited
Round 3
Extend.
Forfeited
Round 4
Full concession by Con.
Vote Pro.
Forfeited
Round 5
The End.
Vote Pro.
Yeah, I lost. I can't make arguments, can I. Vote Pro.
Is it a boarding school, or is there a reason you can't make arguments from home?
Or...I don't. Most debates are "standard" here and a number of them is >=1week for argument time.
Either way, this update basically ruined my motivation. I am probably not going to be trying for competition here because it is often just not worth it.
Yeah, I don't like how poorly my comment aged. Hope you find a workaround, though.
...Until he realizes that the high school does not allow computers the same way it allows phones, meaning that typing arguments mid-week is virtually impossible. That is a new rule.
Ooh, this will be a good one. Intelligence doesn't go down without a fight.
After that my AP testing week is over, I can finally find something else to do, here.
Thanks for accepting.
I was nervous this debate was gonna auto-delete.
Bump