Instigator / Pro
3
1522
rating
14
debates
28.57%
won
Topic
#4415
God, as portrayed in the bible, cannot reasonably exist to the words of the bible.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...
Best.Korea
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
7
1271
rating
354
debates
39.83%
won
Description
Personal interpretations of the bible will not be used in this debate, it will be a debate solely around what the bible says. This means that the Bible will be interpreted from a literal standpoint and not a metaphoric one. As this is regarding God's portrayal in the bible, texts outside of the bible will not be taken into account. Both the old and new testaments will count as the bible for this argument. BOP is on Pro. This debate relates to "the words of the bible" as commonly accepted in English. Con may only assert that a section of the bible cannot be used if they bear BOP to prove that the section of the bible cannot be true (such as due to a translation error), obviously ignoring the argument that it cannot be true as it contradicts other parts of the bible for the purposes of proving this. Forfeiting any rounds auto-forfeits the whole debate. My opponent auto-forfeits if they are someone I am currently debating on a similar subject (such as Mall).
Round 1
God, in the bible, is portrayed as having infinite mercy. To give an example, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end" (Lamentations 3:22-23). Despite this, god sends people to hell just because they do not believe in him, as shown by the quote, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:18) and further by the quote, "The final place of eternal torment for unbelievers is the lake of fire" (Rev 20:10). The lake of fire in the last quote is referring to hell. In the former quote, when they say that those who don't believe in him are condemned, it means that those who do not believe in God are condemned to go to hell.
Suppose that someone lives in such a way that they never encounter Christianity or even have a chance to become Christian. Even if that person is immensely charitable and kind, and is a model of someone immensely kind, they will go to hell due to not believing in the biblical God. How can that be considered just or having infinite mercy? Would a merciful or kind god do such a horrible thing as to condemn someone to infinite torment purely on the basis that they don't believe in them, and would they still do such a thing if the nonbeliever in question had no way of even knowing about Christianity in the first place? The people living in the Americas before Columbus had no opportunity to even learn of Christianity, and thus if the bible is true they would be condemned to hell regardless of how good of a person these Native Americans were due to something completely and utterly out of their control. Again, how can this be considered just or the actions of a God that supposedly has infinite mercy?
Furthermore, God is capable of sending good nonbelievers to heaven. God, as portrayed in the Bible, can do absolutely anything, which should include sending good nonbelievers to heaven. This is shown by the quote, "God can do anything, you know — far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams!" (Ephesians 3:20-21).
Clearly, this is a massive contradiction in the bible. God cannot both have "infinite mercy" and condemn those who don't believe in him to hell at the same time if he does have infinite mercy. Thus, the only logical conclusion is that God as shown in the Bible couldn't exist as these things contradict each other.
While it is true that atheism is a sin, "non-believer" in the Bible does not talk about atheists who dont believe in God, but those who dont believe in his word and commands.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 25:35
"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"
Bible Romans 2
"God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance"
" God will repay each person according to what they have done."
" glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism."
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Round 2
While it is true that atheism is a sin, "non-believer" in the Bible does not talk about atheists who dont believe in God, but those who dont believe in his word and commands.
Correction: You say that nonbeliever is not talking about atheists who don't believe in God, but instead those who don't believe in Gods word and his commands. Though possibly unintentional by you, this implies that I was saying that is it only atheists are nonbelievers in this context. However, nonbeliever in this context would refer to nonbelievers in the biblical God. So, for instance, a believer in an Aztec god would qualify as a nonbeliever.
Argument 1: Nonbeliever is defined as, "a person who is not a believer" according to Merriam-Webster. Considering this, why are we supposed to believe that nonbeliever is not referring to those who lack belief in the biblical God? You have presented no evidence that would show this.
Argument 2: Suppose, for a moment, that we assume that nonbeliever in the Bible is referring to those who don't believe in Gods word or commands, like you are saying it is. The first commandment that God gave in the Bible was "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". In other words, even if your definition was true, those who believe in Gods other than the biblical God would break Gods commands. Thus, those who believe in a God other than the biblical God would go to hell after death according to the bible, even those who never even had an opportunity to learn of Gods existence such as Native Americans before Columbus came, and would be doomed for eternal punishment purely and solely due to the location of their birth and absolutely nothing to do with their morality or righteousness. Such a system is clearly unjust, and as God is said to have infinite mercy, it is a contradiction for a being of supposedly infinite mercy to do an action is that is highly unjust. Thus, God must not exist as the bible contradicts itself.
Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
This basically says that not all believers of God will get into heaven, but only those who do the will of God will get heaven. The issue with this in supporting your earlier claim is that to qualify for heaven you need to be a believer in God and do the will of God. If you never got an opportunity to even learn about Christianity (such as the Native Americans before Columbus came) you'd be doomed from the start.
Luke 6:38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
This doesn't relate to the afterlife and is irrelevant.
Matthew 25:35"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"
Also not relevant to this debate as it doesn't concern the afterlife.
Bible Romans 2"God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance"" God will repay each person according to what they have done."" glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.""For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Also doesn't relate to the afterlife and is irrelevant.
I'd like to remind my opponent that this debate is "to the words of the bible", as shown in the claim. Thus, if something is implied in the Bible it does not matter, just the words in the Bible. While one can use implications in many of those above quotes from the Bible that do not relate to afterlife, it is irrelevant if the information is implied and not directly stated. In addition, unlike my opponent who needs to use shaky implications to back up his claims which are unproven, I have cited direct biblical scripture about the nature of the afterlife in the Bible and its unjustness.
Also not relevant to this debate as it doesn't concern the afterlife.
A quote about afterlife doesnt concern the afterlife?
Since you didnt refute, extend until the end of debate:
Matthew 25:35"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"
Bible Romans 2"God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance"" God will repay each person according to what they have done."" glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.""For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
God forgives sins based on good deeds and charity, so we can expect that atheists who do lots of good will be forgiven for their atheism.
Round 3
Forfeited
Bye
Round 4
Forfeited
I dont have anything to add.
Round 5
Forfeited
Well okay
"You cannot interpret the metaphors metaphorically"
very interesting rules
bump
bump
If you would like, I would be willing to debate you on this same topic.
bump