Instigator / Pro

Savant

1747

rating

debates

100.0%

won

Topic

#4398

THBT: On balance, getting a STEM degree is more useful to society than getting a Liberal Arts degree

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

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After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Savant

Tags

Education

Parameters

Publication date: 04.17.2023 12:47AM
Last updated date: 05.04.2023 05:35PM
Type: Rated
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 6,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open
Minimal rating: 1,550

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Description

RULES:
The framework below, including definitions, is agreed on by both debaters as part of the decision to participate in this debate.

BURDEN OF PROOF:
BoP is shared. Pro argues that getting a STEM degree is more useful to society than getting a Liberal Arts degree. Con argues that getting a Liberal Arts degree is more useful to society than getting a STEM degree. Essentially, the purpose of this debate is to answer the question: Which degree is more useful in the hands of someone who wants to help society?

DEFINITIONS:
Society: Those we choose to help or interact with
Useful: Offering some measure of utility

Round 1

Savant

04.17.2023 02:10PM

Pro

Preamble:

To evaluate usefulness to society, I will compare STEM and Liberal Arts on various metrics. By any meaningful measure, someone can offer much more value to society with a STEM degree than they can with a Liberal Arts degree.

1. Value of Skills Learned

Skills Taught in STEM

STEM classes prepare students to develop new technology and scientific theories—with the rate at which technology is rapidly advancing, Liberal Arts majors can’t possibly keep up. New AI models such as Chat GPT can accomplish the same things as essayists in a fraction of the time. STEM teaches students to develop new things—and once they are developed, they can be mass produced. STEM skills always remain relevant, because new technology can always be developed.

Skills Taught in Liberal Arts

Liberal Arts classes teach students skills that will likely be unnecessary in twenty years. Before computers had spellcheck, being good with language was a big focus. Today, plenty of Liberal Arts majors learn how to write convincingly—and it won’t be long before Chat GPT or some other program can do better than them. AI can already crush the bar exam. In essence, Liberal Arts majors continue to learn skills that STEM majors are making obsolete.

2. Contributions to Economic Growth

Market Demand for STEM Skills

The demand for STEM skills continues to grow. However, these skills are in short supply, meaning that anyone with a STEM degree has huge potential to help the economy.

Importance of STEM at Large Companies

Qualified STEM majors are essential in helping companies to grow and solve problems. As technology grows, so does the demand for technicians who can maintain them. The demand for “skilled labor” has become a common thread at these companies—and the lack thereof is the bottleneck that limits innovation.

3. Opportunities for Innovation

The innovation coming from STEM fields gives strong evidence for their utility. Humanities don’t offer anywhere near the same level of innovation. To illustrate this point, I will focus on technological and scientific developments from the past century.

New Technology

Computers
Mobile Phones (and Smartphones)
Internet
Flash Drives
LED Light Bulbs
MP3 Players
Digital Cameras
Source

Scientific Contributions

Antibiotics
Vaccines for polio, measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox
Blood Storage
MRIs
HIV Therapy
The Human Genome Project
Source

4. Potential for Charitable Contributions

Salary Differences

STEM majors make an average salary of $82,793. Liberal Arts majors make an average salary of $39,349. When global charities are considered, these salary differences add up. Top charities can save a life for just $5,000. If nothing else, a STEM major can afford to save 8-9 more lives per year than a Liberal Arts major.

5. Finding Solutions to Global Problems

STEM research has saved billions of lives globally. Compared to scientific and technological advancements, the combined impact of Liberal Arts majors is negligible.

Agriculture

Improvements in agricultural technology during the Green Revolution saved billions of lives. We can credit Norman Borlaug, a STEM major, for a good chunk of that.

Medicine

Over half of all deaths globally are caused by disease. The Covid vaccine alone saved millions of lives.

Sir.Lancelot

04.17.2023 05:45PM

Con

STEM and Liberal Arts share a symbiotic relationship, with STEM heavily depending on LA to have a successful impact. As STEM renders certain LA skills obsolete, new skills will be taught and in demand.

Communication

Public Relations- This career path requires a combination of strong writing and speaking skills to directly control the reputation of a company. Responsibility for increasing interaction and engagement for newer companies falls directly on this job. Annual Salary = $63,000

Advertising & Marketing- Algorithms cannot adjust to the abilities required for this job. This role requires a strong knowledge of consumers and your target demographic. Advertising generally takes the form of launching product-based websites or projecting through television and radio. As such, this makes this one of the hardest jobs to be successful at.

Annual Salary = $132,000

Graphic Design- Creating logos, character mascots, book covers or the ability to sell products through creative artwork will always remain an essential skill not replaceable by a STEM degree. Photography, cartoons, and animation is covered with this job. Manually creating business websites or custom templates are always in demand. Annual Salary = $51,000

That said, doctors that know a variety of languages can better communicate with immigrants in order to uncover symptoms and address them accordingly.

Diplomacy is a strong communication skill which is necessary for addressing foreign disputes, communicating issues & solutions for economic prosperity, and resolving war conflicts through words and civility. Something STEM is simply unable to do.

Psychology

Let me ask a rhetorical question.: Just how many deaths are caused by substance abuse and violent crime?

Mental Health & Substance Abuse- Counselors and psychologists who treat alcoholism and cocaine addiction can work on reducing the amount of deaths caused by DUI’s, or overall actively working to stop domestic abuse cases. Even stopping suicides caused by depression.

Annual Salary = $50,000

Psychology is of critical importance in profiling serial criminals and proactively stopping murders before they happen. The best cure is prevention.

Sociology

Social Worker- Society needs experts capable of holding parents accountable and identifying toxic environments to children, because they have a duty to keep a child safe and the only way to ensure the next generation succeeds is through properly raising the youth. Children with personality disorders and autism may not be receiving the help they need, in education or social interaction.

Annual Salary = $40,000 - $80,000

Lawyer- Lawyers are required to manage custody battles, property settlements over divorce disputes, settling debt, overcoming workplace harassment, prosecuting criminals, and overall protecting innocent people from wrongful persecution.

Annual Salary = $117,000

Likewise, correctional officers are required to assist the progress of convicts into successful reform, so they can return to society. Career counselors are needed to guide unsure high school and college students on the path of success, so that they may have a stable future long-term.

https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/liberal-arts/what-is-a-liberal-arts-degree

https://soc.appstate.edu/students/what-you-can-do-degree-sociology/career-options-sociology-degree

Round 2

Savant

04.17.2023 06:59PM

Pro

Framework:

On balance

Con largely ignores the “on balance” part of the resolution, cherry picking certain careers that address societal issues with high salaries. Not everyone in Liberal Arts will go into public relations. Not everyone can become a lawyer.

Total Impact

There are two ways to try and address the comparable impact between these two types of degrees:

Marginal benefit - What is the incremental benefit to society available from one new degree of this kind?
Net impact - What kinds of major advances have been accomplished by people with each type of degree when their skills are combined?

I have no doubt that many of the careers Con listed attempt to address societal issues, but they’re simply not as effective as STEM. On balance, STEM degrees are better at (1) and (2).

I’ve listed a few examples for (2) that have gone uncontested, so I think it’s clear that STEM edges ahead in solving global problems.

Rebuttals:

“Annual Salary”

As I pointed out already, on balance, the salary from STEM is much greater than the salary from Liberal Arts.

“Public Relations / Advertising & Marketing”

The marginal benefit here is questionable. How many PR people are actually The technology developed by someone with a STEM major is unquestionably more important than the reputation of any one particular company.
Con also assumes that PR is a net benefit, when it is often harmful. The companies with the best products should rise to the top, not those with the slickest advertisers.
Theranos had great PR but horrible technology, consisting mostly of graphic designers instead of medical experts. Elizabeth Holmes focused on PR instead of finishing her STEM degree, and as a result, Theranos endangered hundreds of thousands of consumers.

“Graphic Design…will always remain an essential skill not replaceable by a STEM degree.”

No, it won’t. AI can already make better artwork than most humans.
I also think that medical advances and technological developments that dramatically alleviate poverty are generally more of a benefit to humanity than artwork that looks cool.
And finally, who developed the computers that these graphic designers are relying on?

“doctors that know a variety of languages can better communicate with immigrants in order to uncover symptoms and address them accordingly”

You can learn a language better by simply living in that country or practicing than by getting a Liberal Arts degree.
I’d also rather be treated by a doctor who only speaks one language than a language translator with no experience in medicine—different doctors speak different languages, we don’t need one doctor speaking five of them.

“Diplomacy is a strong communication skill which is necessary for addressing foreign disputes”

Few Liberal Arts majors will rise to this level of importance
It’s doubtful that a Liberal Arts degree actually helps much in these kinds of situations. Some people are simply more charismatic than others.
We only need a dozen or so diplomats—the supply vastly outweighs the demand. It’s also doubtful that the best people get selected for the job, since political elections rely heavily on luck.
It’s often hard to predict the interests of a country, or even to predict whether those interests align with those that are beneficial to society. Hillary Clinton majored in political science and then voted for the Iraq War, which turned out to be a huge blunder.
Foreign policy isn’t going to change much whether the country has 10,000 Liberal Arts Majors or 10,000,000.
Meanwhile, a scientist helping to develop new kinds of medicine has a stronger guarantee that their research will actually help people.

“Social Worker”

I’ll admit there’s a positive influence on society here, but not one comparable to STEM degrees.
Pediatricians are more likely to save lives than social workers.
Child mortality has dramatically been reduced, largely thanks to advancements in medical care, which rely on STEM.
Autism was initially discovered by psychiatrist Eugen Bleuler, and most researchers developing new treatments for autism are psychiatrists as well.
Becoming a psychiatrist requires a very STEM-heavy course load, and most psychiatrists major in a STEM major out of convenience. Psychiatry is STEM, not Liberal Arts.

“Lawyer”

This is largely a zero-sum game, since lawyers specialize in arguing with other lawyers. Double the amount of lawyers in society, and very little will change.
Most public resources are directed toward prosecutors, but most defendants are guilty. So it’s not clear whether a lawyer should become a prosecutor or a defense lawyer, or if either of those are more beneficial to society.
Becoming a lawyer is very difficult and requires extra years of schooling. A CS major, for example, has a better guarantee of making a similar salary which can be donated to the same causes.

“correctional officers/Career counselors”

I don’t think that more career officers = better results. Most schools that are interested in having career counselors can easily get one.
A career counselor or correctional office is also a very small fraction of the influence that someone has, only meeting with them for small periods and often just to check in. Parents/friends/acquaintances are largely going to determine the positive influences someone has and there won’t be much room for the Liberal Arts major to make a huge difference.

Sir.Lancelot

04.19.2023 03:26PM

Con

I haven’t ignored the on-balance part, despite Pro’s claim. I do believe a degree in LA is more useful than STEM alone. Because science and math are also technically liberal arts.

STEM degrees get you off on an easy starting career, but LA degrees help you gradually evolve into a very successful, stable career in the future.

Teaching is a career that can only be obtained with a LA degree.

Would we have STEM majors, physicians, or engineers, doctors if we didn’t have teachers?

Let’s address this myth really quickly.

Not all STEM jobs pay that much.

Furthermore, the demand for STEM applicants have caused more competition, thereby increasing the standards which means they have to constantly be honing their skills in order to not be left behind.

The major risk of STEM careers is job instability and chronic unemployment. The average salary sounds less tempting when you consider that not everyone has what it takes to succeed.

Despite the accusations of cherry-picking, I was simply taking a list of the most relevant careers with a LA degree.

While it is true languages can be learned through living in the native country, it is also true that LA has played a role in encouraging equality through racial diversity through awareness and education.

Black studies and studies on American history give perspective on the harsh realities of being born a person of color in a low status community. LA addresses systemic problems going on for centuries that cannot be addressed by STEM.

Knowledge in semantics and linguistics is also a requirement to be successful at STEM or else everything you apply falls apart. This is why STEM cannot exist without LA.

Considering that biology and astronomy are an extension of LA, it would’ve been impossible for medical science to reach the level it has in treating diseases, without the information biology provides on organisms, diseases, and bacteria.

Furthermore, astronomy gives humans an understanding of their origin by observing how the universe works and the requirements needed to sustain life.

Round 3

Savant

04.19.2023 04:48PM

Pro

Framework:

On balance

Con starts with the claim that STEM degrees are a subcategory of Liberal Arts degrees, which is false, by any reasonable interpretation of the resolution. He also makes the claim that it’s sometimes helpful to have people with Liberal Arts degrees, which is true. But the resolution is on balance, which demands that we ask which degree is more useful in today’s circumstances.

The marginal benefit of STEM degrees is greater than the marginal benefit of Liberal Arts degrees.
STEM majors deal with more important issues than Liberal Arts majors—disease, development of new technology, engineering. Their accomplishments are far more impressive combined than the accomplishments of Liberal Arts majors.
The description clarifies the question before us: Which degree is more useful in the hands of someone who wants to help society? Some Liberal Arts degrees will be more useful than others, but almost all STEM degrees will be more useful, allowing for more charitable donations that save lives and more impact of technological development.

Rebuttals:

“Would we have STEM majors, physicians, or engineers, doctors if we didn’t have teachers?”

Becoming a computer science instructor requires a STEM degree, not a Liberal Arts degree
We do need some amount of high school teachers, but there are only so many schools and so many students. If there was more demand for teachers, salaries would reflect that. Most problems with the school system have to do with bad policy, not the number of teachers.
The quality of education at the high school level is not going to matter as much as the information learned at college. There’s a lot of demand for knowledgable CS professors, since Computer Science is one of the most popular majors.

“Not all STEM jobs pay that much.”

On balance, STEM degrees pay more than Liberal Arts.

“the demand for STEM applicants have caused more competition, thereby increasing the standards which means they have to constantly be honing their skills in order to not be left behind.”

The good thing about STEM is that the potential is unlimited. Whereas Liberal Art majors can only teach so many students and defend so many clients, STEM majors can invent infinite numbers of new products for which there will always be demand.
By the time every possible technological advancement has been created, we won’t need Liberal Arts majors anymore—AI will be doing everything for us.
Salaries reflect this—there’s simply much more demand for STEM, and top companies are begging for more talent.

“The major risk of STEM careers is job instability and chronic unemployment.”

No, that’s the major risk of Liberal Arts degrees, statistically speaking.

“it is also true that LA has played a role in encouraging equality through racial diversity through awareness and education”

Has it, though? The BLM protests caused over $1 billion in property damage. Universities have mainly stood behind BLM, which has likely stolen $10 million in charity fraud.
Whatever universities are teaching with regards to activism and better race relations clearly isn’t working. They’re simply throwing their support behind an organization that has increased racial tensions.
Let’s not forget that many universities openly discriminate in admissions. Are classes on race taught by these universities going to help race relations or harm them?
Being lectured on institutional racism by an openly racist institution does not provide a tangible benefit. Developing new technology helps everyone.

“LA addresses systemic problems going on for centuries that cannot be addressed by STEM.”

It talks about solving those problems, but STEM actually addresses them, since a good way to end a cycle of poverty is to get a high-paying STEM job to support your family, or to donate.
Let’s not forget that most of the efforts to address these systemic problems by activist groups have caused huge crime spikes.
You know who actually analyzes the factors that reduce crime, which disproportionately affects minority groups? Statisticians.

“Considering that biology and astronomy are an extension of LA, it would’ve been impossible for medical science to reach the level it has in treating diseases, without the information biology provides on organisms, diseases, and bacteria.”

Both of those are STEM subjects.
Regardless of what Liberal Arts has done in the past (and it hasn’t done much), it’s clear that increased research into these subjects in the future will require STEM degrees.

“Knowledge in semantics and linguistics is also a requirement to be successful at STEM or else everything you apply falls apart.”

And yet plenty of successful people have STEM degrees without also requiring a Liberal Arts degree.
Most people learn language at a young age by just talking to people. A college degree isn’t required to understand basic language.
High school education helps somewhat with language, but as I already pointed out, there’s not as much demand for more teachers as there is for more STEM majors.
Even if a STEM major is bad at grammar or writing an essay, this doesn’t change whether they can code.

“Furthermore, astronomy gives humans an understanding of their origin by observing how the universe works and the requirements needed to sustain life.”

Yes, astronomy requires a STEM degree.

Conclusion:

It seems that Con has simply given a list of Liberal Arts degrees and named the problems they are supposed to solve, without showing how effective those degrees are or comparing them to the benefits of STEM degrees.
Con has provided a total of two sources, both of which are simply definitions of a number of Liberal Arts jobs, and neither of which actually give a measure of how helpful they are to society.
Voting policy holds that source points should be given “to the side that (with a strong quality lead) better supported their case with relevant outside evidence and/or analysis thereof.”
Con may provide all sorts of new arguments and evidence that I will then be unable to respond to, but voters should dismiss them.

Sir.Lancelot

04.19.2023 05:06PM

Con

An understanding of basic syntax, grammar, language, and structure is needed to write code.
Someone who is illiterate cannot write code.
By exploring history and biology, LA has contributed in bringing racial awareness and brought a deeper of understanding of microscopic organisms to further advance medical science.
Liberal ARTs degrees have also contributed to a deeper understanding of the environment, so STEM can develop technology to address climate change and Global Warming.

“And in the natural sciences, a liberal arts degree could be a major in biology, mathematics, chemistry, environmental science, or physics.”

https://www.bestcolleges.com/humanities/what-is-a-liberal-arts-degree/

I’m unsure exactly the point that Pro is making by the damage done by volatile protesters or how it refutes my point about LA and how it addresses racism against blacks. Statistically, more black people are targets of murders and attacks that are racially motivated than whites are.

Racial biases in the courts or on the streets is not something that can be corrected by STEM technology like Pro states. And certainly not to the degree that LA has.

In order to qualify for a job in the STEM career with a STEM degree, the candidate needs a LA degree. But to pursue an LA career, a person only needs an LA degree, but not necessarily a STEM degree.

Vote Con.

Sir.Lancelot

05.04.2023 05:35PM

bump

Savant

04.19.2023 05:59PM

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@Greyparrot

Thanks for voting!

Greyparrot

04.19.2023 05:59PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

I hope I wasn't too brutal with my Reason for Vote :O

Sir.Lancelot

04.19.2023 05:39PM

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@Greyparrot

Thx for the vote!

Greyparrot

04.19.2023 05:36PM

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@Sir.Lancelot

@Savant

Nice debate

Savant

04.19.2023 05:15PM

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@Greyparrot

@YouFound_Lxam

@WeaverofFate

Please vote if you can!

Greyparrot

04.19.2023 05:35PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Ahh the time-honored debate regarding the yin and yang of LA and STEM.

It really is a shame CON fell into the trap of comparing utility and purpose on the same path as STEM. By doing so, it gave Pro an advantage on the utility argument. Namely, the salary and advancements argument.

I looked hard at CON's points hoping to find his salvation, namely, pointing out that LA answers the question of WHY for societal utility rather than the HOW that STEM provides. Had CON pursued this, it would have set up many counterarguments based on the creation of the societal policies by LA that ultimately dictate where STEM is to be focused.

Many counterexamples of STEM driven societies with little LA social policy abound in numerous historical examples of failed great civilizations. Con almost went in this direction by discussing global warming policies dictating the direction of STEM, but should have devoted an entire section to this point, not one line.

CON instead mostly stayed on the Utility track and so lost this debate.