Instigator / Pro
1
1524
rating
54
debates
74.07%
won
Topic
#4390
On balance, homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
Bella3sp
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1264
rating
363
debates
39.81%
won
Description
I don't like putting myself out there blind-folded to whomever debates me but whatever..
Definitions:
Homosexual: Homosexuality refers to a sexual attraction or romantic relationship between individuals of the same sex. It is an inherent aspect of one's identity and not a choice or behavior that can be changed or controlled.
Conversion Therapy: Conversion therapy is the practice of attempting to change an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression to align with heterosexual and cisgender norms
Layout:
- Pro forfeits round one
- Con forfeits round five
Which presents a four round debate.
Rules:
1. Upon accepting this debate you agree to accept all definitions. You can only request changes before accepting the debate.
2. Upon accepting this debate you agree to the layout.
3. On balance, burden of proof shared.
4. 3 forfeits = concession
Round 1
Alright con, you're up.
Per description:
"Layout:
- Pro forfeits round one"
1) Definitions:
1:1) Homosexual: "Homosexuality refers to a sexual attraction or romantic relationship between individuals of the same sex. It is an inherent aspect of one's identity and not a choice or behavior that can be changed or controlled.".
1:2) Conversion Therapy: "Conversion therapy is the practice of attempting to change an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression to align with heterosexual and cisgender norms".
2) Topic: "On balance, homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy".
2:1) My position on the topic is: "It is not true that "On balance, homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy"".
3) Arguments
3:1) Definition includes homosexuality and underage homosexuality
The definition: "Homosexuality refers to a sexual attraction or romantic relationship between individuals of the same sex. It is an inherent aspect of one's identity and not a choice or behavior that can be changed or controlled.".
Nothing in this definition tells us that those individuals are adults. They could be two 12 year-olds. Or worse, they could be a 30 year-old and a 12 year-old engaging in romantic relationship. It makes it worse, because the relationship is homosexual, as opposed to normal unity between male and female which results in offspring. Since homosexual relationship doesnt result in offspring, we shouldnt encourage homosexual relationships. We should discourage them to prevent children from being exposed to them. Since children are sensitive, they can easily develop feelings towards same sex and as such refuse to have a family once they grow up. The results show that children who are exposed to deviations are more suicidal and depressed than children who live a normal life in traditional values that teach the unity between male and female.
3:2) Homosexuality is bad for society
Countries that support homosexuality as a result have more depression, more suicides, more rape, more mental illnesses and lower birth rates than countries that punish homosexuality.
We saw this happen in USA, UK, Japan, South Korea and in every country after it started encouraging homosexuality. Allowing homosexuality has no positive effects on population, but it has plenty of negative effects.
Countries that punish homosexuality have lower rates of suicide than countries that encourage homosexuality.
Even Afghanistan has 3 times lower suicide rate than USA, and 3 times higher birth rates than USA.
The rate of suicide in Afganistan is 4 per 100,000.
The rate of suicide in USA is 13 per 100,000.
Mental illnesses in USA are on the rise as justifying homosexuality leads to justifying LGBT, that leads to justifying the castration of 14 year-olds through hormones injections, along with lying to 4 year-olds that they can change sex.
3:3) Justifying homosexuality justifies pedophilia
My opponent has given the definition of homosexuality that includes underage persons.
If we ignore that homosexuality is harmful for society, to remain morally consistent we also have to ignore that pedophilia is harmful for society.
In fact, societies that punish homosexuality and allow child marriages have lower suicide rates than societies that allow homosexuality and punish child marriages.
By this objective standard, homosexuality is worse than pedophilia as it causes much more deaths.
3:4) Conversion therapy would discourage homosexuality and help protect children
After we have seen that homosexuality as defined by my opponent causes harm to society and to children, one thing we can do to discourage it is by doing forced conversion therapy. That would send a clear message that homosexuals will be punished if they act on their urges. Anyone saying "homosexuality is good" would be labeled as homosexual and he would be punished with forced conversion therapy.
4) Conclusion
We have seen that homosexuality has no positive effects on population. We have seen that homosexuality is bad for society, that it includes underage relationships and that it justifies pedophilia. We have seen that even very poor countries that punish homosexuality have less suicides and higher birth rates than countries that encourage homosexuality. We have seen that forced conversion therapy would punish homosexuality and that would help society.
5) Sources
Suicide rate in USA increased 30%:
Suicide rate in South Korea increased 100%:
Rise in mental illnesses in USA:
Suicide rate in countries that ban homosexuality is 4 times lower than suicide rate in USA. This includes very poor countries like Afghanistan and Iran:
Afganistan birth rates 3 times higher than US birth rates:
Round 2
Hey, thanks, Best.Korea. I think you participated in my first debate when I joined DART, I appreciate the chance to debate you again.
Hopefully we'll get some fun out of this. Also, my apologies for the entire two week wait.
My position is simply: Homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy.
1. Burden of Proof:
BoP is Shared.
Pro will be arguing that homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy.
Con will be arguing that homosexuals should be forced to be in conversion therapy.
2. Opening:
Conversion therapy in this case is forced, which can lead to unwanted sexual, physical, or mental effects left on the person being forced. Controversially because of those reasons and because it is forced against their will, homosexuals should not be forced to be in conversion therapy.
3. Definitions:
A. Homosexual: Homosexuality refers to a sexual attraction or romantic relationship between individuals of the same sex. It is an inherent aspect of one's identity and not a choice or behavior that can be changed or controlled.
B. Conversion Therapy: Conversion therapy is the practice of attempting to change an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression to align with heterosexual and cisgender norms.
4. Contentions
I. Inefficient
Currently there is no evidence of conversion therapy actually working, are we suggesting that they undergo harmful ways of trying to 'convert' them for it to be inefficient? It actually can cause long-term effects even outside of therapy.
The following are examples of unfortunate things that could possibly happen afterwards:
- Depression
- Anxiety
- Drug use
- Homelessness
- Suicide
If we are to dislike the problem with homosexuals committing suicide, why are we to also support such? By doing something that is inefficient it also supports the long-term effects that can occur. How are we to discriminate and support abusive therapy for homosexuals but be the cause for the suicides?
II. Harmful & Torture
As said in my previous contention, I stated that there also are long-term effects once done with such therapy. However, it is not also just after the therapy, its the entire therapy itself.
Consider the following:
"Methods that have been used to this end include forms of brain surgery, surgical or hormonal castration, aversive treatments such as electric shocks, nausea-inducing drugs, hypnosis, counseling, spiritual interventions, visualization, psychoanalysis, and masturbatory reconditioning."
These practices are dangerous and leave someone mentally scarred for life. We are using practices that affect society completely, if you are to think this, do we force everyone in therapy then? If you really do think about it, per the definition, should we be getting rid of Koreans, African Americans, blond hairs, etc. Nobody is special and if we don't give someone the same type of torture, we are discriminating. Now, you might say, well, Koreans aren't affecting anyone. They aren't? Ask yourself this, if they really aren't affecting anyone, is it because of biased, discriminating thoughts of others?
III. Form of Child Abuse & Against Human Rights
Violation of Human Rights
Conversion therapy is a violation of human rights.
The Human Rights Act of 1988:
"No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
These people are being forced against their will just because some people dislike homosexuality which usually tends to be people of religion, however, not everyone is in a religion. It should not be forced upon someone when bring no 'harm', they are being subjected to horrible treatment for the sake of peoples discriminating opinions.
Child abuse
"Child abuse is not just physical violence directed at a child. It is any form of maltreatment by an adult, which is violent or threatening for the child."
So in a lot of cases, people in conversion therapy are minors. This is straight child abuse, not only is it physical but also mental harm which is also lead to PTSD or extreme trauma. Are we to sit back and allow child abuse? You can not argue for the safety of children but also support the position to harm them with many different cases.
5. Refutations:
3:1) Definition includes homosexuality and underage homosexualityNothing in this definition tells us that those individuals are adults. They could be two 12 year-olds. Or worse, they could be a 30 year-old and a 12 year-old engaging in romantic relationship.
In general this is irreverent.
It not the homosexuality that needs to be fixed. This is pedophilia, which means something else needs to be handled with.
Con has misplaced the meaning, if they were put into conversion therapy its would not fix the underage relationship, the idea of it is to fix the homosexuality. So, IF the person was converted then they would still engage in underage relationships.
It makes it worse, because the relationship is homosexual, as opposed to normal unity between male and female which results in offspring. Since homosexual relationship doesnt result in offspring, we shouldnt encourage homosexual relationships
Not sure what this has to with the contention.
In Vitro Fertilization is actually a successful way to reproduce. Homosexuals have used this as a proven way to successfully reproduce without being straight.
Consider this:
A man (homosexual) donates to a sperm clinic and a (homosexual) woman decides they want a child, they can reproduce with getting the procedure.
Not only, but some straight, hetrosexual people don't have kids at all. Does this mean you discourage straight people as well?
We should discourage them to prevent children from being exposed to them.
What do you suggest con? Lock them all up? Violation of rights!
Also, you say discourage them? You mean prejudice? You mean do the exact thing that hurts people negatively?
The results show that children who are exposed to deviations are more suicidal and depressed than children who live a normal life in traditional values that teach the unity between male and female.
I wonder why..
Con just a sentences ago: "We should discourage them ..."
3:2) Homosexuality is bad for society
Is it because of homosexuality or is it because of the peoples mindset towards homosexuals that's causing it?
If everyone was respectful towards homosexuals would there be suicides because of discrimination they are getting for being homosexual?
I ask voters and viewers to keep these rhetorical questions in mind.
Everything that's below this contention is just evidence of suicides reports.
We saw this happen in USA, UK, Japan, South Korea and in every country after it started encouraging homosexuality. Allowing homosexuality has no positive effects on population, but it has plenty of negative effects.
No positive effects? I don't know, let's see..
I'll give up two positive things:
Comfortable, acceptance, all around positivity.
When you take away someone's freedom, that results in negativity. How happy are these people when you punish their freedom?
Even Afghanistan has 3 times lower suicide rate than USA, and 3 times higher birth rates than USA.The rate of suicide in Afganistan is 4 per 100,000.The rate of suicide in USA is 13 per 100,000
USA has a population of 336,380,303 while Afghanistan had a population of 41,384,255, of course there is gonna be more suicides you say more birth rates yet they aren't even close to the population of the USA? Something is lacking.. You can't compare them when the population isn't even close.
Mental illnesses in USA are on the rise as justifying homosexuality leads to justifying LGBT, that leads to justifying the castration of 14 year-olds through hormones injections, along with lying to 4 year-olds that they can change sex.
Parents should be responsible for their child and make sure to ask the child to wait before doing so. If the parent is not responsible for being a parent for a child that's not mature yet, that's on them. Usually though, parent's ask their child to wait until their of 18+ to make the right decision.
If they so choose they want to have hormone injections, so be it. If they choose they don't, so be it.
"Lying to 4 year olds" its not that they change their biological sex. But what they can do is change their gender.
3:3) Justifying homosexuality justifies pedophilia
You basically repeated your first contention.
Nowhere does homosexuality say: "guys, we root for homosexuality and that also means I root for pedophilia!"
I hope con realizes that homosexuality and being a pedophilia are two separate things.
It is not because of homosexuality for the twisted thoughts of liking children way younger than yourself. Voters, please, take this into consideration.
My opponent has given the definition of homosexuality that includes underage persons.
Okay, but does it say they have to be underage? And are most in an under aged relationship? No.
If they were in that type of relationship, how many are actually in that kind of relationship? Is this relationship forced?
In fact, societies that punish homosexuality and allow child marriages have lower suicide rates than societies that allow homosexuality and punish child marriages.
Um, con.. You switched up quickly. Weren't you just against the idea of homosexuality and pedophilia? Now you're for the idea of allowing child marriages as long as it doesn't support homosexuality? That's just ironic.
By this objective standard, homosexuality is worse than pedophilia as it causes much more deaths.
You're comparing oranges to apples. These things don't even compare.
3:4) Conversion therapy would discourage homosexuality and help protect children
Ah yes, discourage them, discriminate, but wonder why there are suicides. Funny!
After we have seen that homosexuality as defined by my opponent causes harm to society and to children, one thing we can do to discourage it is by doing forced conversion therapy. That would send a clear message that homosexuals will be punished if they act on their urges. Anyone saying "homosexuality is good" would be labeled as homosexual and he would be punished with forced conversion therapy.
It does not cause harm. Let me confirm, discrimination and prejudice causes harm.
Imagine being punished on something that does NOT affect others, they are minding their own business just like hetrosexuals.
4) ConclusionWe have seen that homosexuality has no positive effects on population. We have seen that homosexuality is bad for society, that it includes underage relationships and that it justifies pedophilia. We have seen that even very poor countries that punish homosexuality have less suicides and higher birth rates than countries that encourage homosexuality. We have seen that forced conversion therapy would punish homosexuality and that would help society.
Incorrect.
It never justifies pedophilia, two separate things. Usually pedophilia is referred to as attraction while as homosexuality is referred to as sexual orientation.
We have not seen that forced conversion therapy would help society? Rather it would damage society physically and mentally.
Also, you never showed it was effective, therefore you have proved nothing.
6. Sources:
1) Definition includes underage homosexuality. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: Homosexuality does include underage homosexuality, which is a type of pedophilia. So we could say that homosexuality by the given definition already justified pedophilia. In those cases, conversion therapy would be most necessary.
2) Children would be exposed to homosexuality. Since children are sensitive, they can easily develop feelings towards same sex. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: I said that homosexuality would encourage underage homosexuality. My opponent said that thats pedophilia. So we can conclude that homosexuality encourages pedophilia then.
My opponent says that conversion therapy wouldnt prevent underage homosexuality. However, it would be useful, since it would give homosexuals a chance to change their behavior and let everyone know that its wrong. Therefore, homosexuals would conceal their behavior, and children would be less exposed to it.
My opponent says: "If they were in that type of relationship, how many are actually in that kind of relationship? Is this relationship forced?".
If a 12 year-old boy is willingly in a relationship with 30 year-old man, it still stands that such relationship is wrong. Such homosexual relationships are products of encouraging homosexuality. Therefore, discouraging all homosexuality would discourage such relationships.
3) Conversion therapy would serve as punishment for homosexuality. Conversion therapy would discourage homosexuality. = Dropped,Extend.
Add: Conversion therapy is useful as punishment and an attempt to prevent individuals from engaging in gay sex. There will be some cases where conversion therapy wont work. Then the death penalty will be necessary. Conversion therapy is there to see if individual can be fixed without being killed, since in some cases individual can choose to supress his urges. In cases where he cant, then the death penalty will cure him. Conversion therapy is necessary to give every homosexual a chance to reject his homosexuality, save his life and improve it. It lets everyone know that homosexuality is wrong. That will lower public displays of homosexuality, and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, as all public homosexuality will be reported and dealt with.
4) Homosexuality is bad for society. It is justifying the castration of 14 year-olds through hormones injections. It increases the amount of mental illnesses. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that rate of suicides is higher because population is higher. False. Rate of suicides is per 100,000 population. It is irrelevant to the total population size, as it deals per 100,000. Not per total population. It deals in percentage, thats why the percentage of population committing suicide in USA is higher than the percentage of population committing suicide in Afganistan.
My opponent says that birth rates cant be higher in Afghanistan because Afghanistan has less population than USA. Birth rates are per 1000 women, not per total population. It is irrelevant that USA has more population, as US too had higher birth rates while it promoted hate towards homosexuals. The population of Afghanistan currently grows faster than US population by percentage of growth.
My opponent says: "How happy are these people when you punish their freedom?". "Is it because of homosexuality or is it because of the peoples mindset towards homosexuals that's causing it?"
Countries that have more homosexual freedom also have more suicides and lower birth rates. Countries that promote hate towards homosexuals have less suicides and higher birth rates. That proves how accepting homosexuals causes suicides. Preventing suicides is good, so we should hate and ban homosexuality. If happiness was more important than life, then that is contradictive, because you cannot have happiness without life and destroying life destroys happiness. If you think it is okay to destroy lives in order to be happy, then that further justifies pedophilia.
5) Homosexuality is worse than pedophilia by objective standard = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that saying "homosexuality is worse than pedophilia" justifies pedophilia. It does not. Saying "two murders are worse than one murder" doesnt justify "one murder".
Both homosexuality and pedophilia are bad. However, homosexuality is much worse. Therefore, accepting homosexuality is a slippery slope towards accepting pedophilia.
My opponent says: "Usually pedophilia is referred to as attraction while as homosexuality is referred to as sexual orientation.". My opponent defined homosexuality as sexual attraction. Plus, sexual orientation is a sexual attraction, so my opponent needs to read his definitions better.
6) Conclusion
We have seen that homosexuality has no positive effects on population. We have seen that homosexuality is bad for society, that it includes underage relationships and that it justifies pedophilia. Accepting homosexuality increases suicides and lowers birth rates. We have seen that even very poor countries that punish homosexuality have less suicides and higher birth rates than countries that encourage homosexuality. We have seen that forced conversion therapy would punish homosexuality and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, and that would help society. Forced conversion would help society by lowering suicides, lowering amount of mental illnesses and increasing birth rates.
Round 3
I won't be responding until next round, I realized my time limit and I just don't have enough time. As of next round, I'll hopefully be putting in a framework, rebuttaling, and extending.
--
Though, I do believe after skimming I will be extending all my arguments, contentions.
Okay.
Round 4
Forfeited
My opponent and I agreed that comments 9 and 10 count as part of the debate.
I will just paste them here in the debate, they count as round 4 of Pro.
Pro Round four 1/2:
Con drops all my contentions in the process of extending theres.
So, extend. Burden is shared; not just countering my opponent.
Rebuttals:
“1) Definition includes underage homosexuality. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: Homosexuality does include underage homosexuality, which is a type of pedophilia. So we could say that homosexuality by the given definition already justified pedophilia. In those cases, conversion therapy would be most necessary.”
This was not really dropped..
Con seems to use justifying in the wrong way; nowhere does it support it. Where does it say children can date adults? It doesn't. Because it's not talking about age gaps, it's talking about sexual preference. Such as being straight, nowhere does it say that being a pedo is right. Same thing applies to homosexuals.
Just because it can/does happen does not mean it's because of homosexuality.
Con misplaces the wrong justification.
“2) Children would be exposed to homosexuality. Since children are sensitive, they can easily develop feelings towards same sex. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: I said that homosexuality would encourage underage homosexuality. My opponent said that thats pedophilia. So we can conclude that homosexuality encourages pedophilia then.”
No? I do not agree. Which is explained above, in your contention, pedophila.
“My opponent says that conversion therapy wouldnt prevent underage homosexuality. However, it would be useful, since it would give homosexuals a chance to change their behavior and let everyone know that its wrong. Therefore, homosexuals would conceal their behavior, and children would be less exposed to it.
My opponent says: "If they were in that type of relationship, how many are actually in that kind of relationship? Is this relationship forced?".
If a 12 year-old boy is willingly in a relationship with 30 year-old man, it still stands that such relationship is wrong. Such homosexual relationships are products of encouraging homosexuality. Therefore, discouraging all homosexuality would discourage such relationships.”
No.. In my contention I said conversion therapy has shown and been proven not to help at all but leave negative effects.
As for your example, homosexuality does not in any way define that the relationship is right. The sexual orientation, however, is. I explain this above as well.
“3) Conversion therapy would serve as punishment for homosexuality. Conversion therapy would discourage homosexuality. = Dropped,Extend.
Add: Conversion therapy is useful as punishment and an attempt to prevent individuals from engaging in gay sex. There will be some cases where conversion therapy wont work. Then the death penalty will be necessary. Conversion therapy is there to see if individual can be fixed without being killed, since in some cases individual can choose to supress his urges. In cases where he cant, then the death penalty will cure him. Conversion therapy is necessary to give every homosexual a chance to reject his homosexuality, save his life and improve it. It lets everyone know that homosexuality is wrong. That will lower public displays of homosexuality, and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, as all public homosexuality will be reported and dealt with.”
Con proves nothing here.
I already stated that conversion therapy does not help at all with research behind it. Con has not.
As for a death penalty the United States rarely gives them for criminals, why for homosexuals who have done nothing wrong?
Pro Round four 2/2:
“4) Homosexuality is bad for society. It is justifying the castration of 14 year-olds through hormones injections. It increases the amount of mental illnesses. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that rate of suicides is higher because population is higher. False. Rate of suicides is per 100,000 population. It is irrelevant to the total population size, as it deals per 100,000. Not per total population. It deals in percentage, thats why the percentage of population committing suicide in USA is higher than the percentage of population committing suicide in Afganistan.
My opponent says that birth rates cant be higher in Afghanistan because Afghanistan has less population than USA. Birth rates are per 1000 women, not per total population. It is irrelevant that USA has more population, as US too had higher birth rates while it promoted hate towards homosexuals. The population of Afghanistan currently grows faster than US population by percentage of growth.
My opponent says: "How happy are these people when you punish their freedom?". "Is it because of homosexuality or is it because of the peoples mindset towards homosexuals that's causing it?"
Countries that have more homosexual freedom also have more suicides and lower birth rates. Countries that promote hate towards homosexuals have less suicides and higher birth rates. That proves how accepting homosexuals causes suicides. Preventing suicides is good, so we should hate and ban homosexuality. If happiness was more important than life, then that is contradictive, because you cannot have happiness without life and destroying life destroys happiness. If you think it is okay to destroy lives in order to be happy, then that further justifies pedophilia.”
As of this one, sure. I didn’t correctly read the rates. But doesn’t that happen to us all, homosexual or not? Is it the person's fault for being homosexual or is it because of the stigma they receive?
For example, children can bully another for their race, and they commit suicide, but that isn’t because that is their biological race. It's because of the negative bullying they recieve.
And can you prove these suicides are because they are homosexuals? Nope. You just put random sucide rates out there. Yet, most you cannot prove where because they are homosexuals. In fact, you never state why they commit sucide. So, this is irrelevant to the discussion.
As for the contention name, I don’t think it increases mental illness nor do you have proof right now.
“5) Homosexuality is worse than pedophilia by objective standard = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that saying "homosexuality is worse than pedophilia" justifies pedophilia. It does not. Saying "two murders are worse than one murder" doesnt justify "one murder".
Both homosexuality and pedophilia are bad. However, homosexuality is much worse. Therefore, accepting homosexuality is a slippery slope towards accepting pedophilia.
My opponent says: "Usually pedophilia is referred to as attraction while as homosexuality is referred to as sexual orientation.". My opponent defined homosexuality as sexual attraction. Plus, sexual orientation is a sexual attraction, so my opponent needs to read his definitions better.”
When did I say homosexuality is worse than pedophilla.. Homosexuality is not bad, pedophilla is bad. They are two different things.
My definitions in my eyes are fine. Pedophilla is attraction ONLY attraction. Sexual orientation is attracted to the same sex, or opposite, etc. See the difference?
What gender you like versus who you're dating.
“6) Conclusion
We have seen that homosexuality has no positive effects on population. We have seen that homosexuality is bad for society, that it includes underage relationships and that it justifies pedophilia. Accepting homosexuality increases suicides and lowers birth rates. We have seen that even very poor countries that punish homosexuality have less suicides and higher birth rates than countries that encourage homosexuality. We have seen that forced conversion therapy would punish homosexuality and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, and that would help society. Forced conversion would help society by lowering suicides, lowering amount of mental illnesses and increasing birth rates.”
Incorrect to a degree. Which I explain in my rebuttals.
That is pro's round 4.
Now about my round. I will go to conclusions since this is my last round as Con skips round 5.
Conclusions:
I believe that I have made the point clear regarding higher suicides, higher amount of mental illnesses and lower birth rates in societies that accept homosexuality. Therefore, conversion therapy would mean that society no longer accepts homosexuals and therefore, conversion therapy would lower suicides, lower amount of mental illnesses and increase birth rates. These are all things that are beneficial for society, therefore forcing homosexuals in conversion therapy would be beneficial for society.
Round 5
Thanks Con for last round,
Conclusion:
I believe the point is clear.
Conversion therapy results in being:
- Inefficienct
- Harmful
- Toture
- Forms of Child Abuse
- Forms of Abuse of Human Rights
I believe con had not proved that homosexuals allowed pedophilla. Pedophila is not a relation to homosexuality. Homosexuality is the gender your attracted to while as pedophila to being attract to a younger person. Con had also thrown out random sucide rates when he did not know the reason for their sucide. Meaning their was no proof the suicides were from being treated unfairly because of homosexuality, and killing themselves. Con then proceed to say conversation therapy was "lowering suicides, lowering amount of mental illnesses and increasing birth rates". That was not proven by con, and I had even stated in my contentions that was false.
Rules:
"Con forfeits round five"
I'm glad you do
No really, I liked it.
Likewise
Thanks for the vote.
Dont forget to post a final round.
Thank you for the clarification.
Something I wish was better explained on this site as well.
B: Burden, O: Of, P: Proof
Burden of Proof.
Definition:
Burden of proof is who, basically, to my understanding, holds the position to prove or disprove the resolution. When it is shared, both sides must prove it. For example, "homosexuals should be treated fairly", if the burden is shared, pro proves why they should be treated fairly, con proves why they shouldn't.
Sometimes it's not shared, and one just refutes the other. Depends on the debate.
I keep seeing the term BoP, and I’m wondering, what does this mean?
Round four 2/2:
“4) Homosexuality is bad for society. It is justifying the castration of 14 year-olds through hormones injections. It increases the amount of mental illnesses. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that rate of suicides is higher because population is higher. False. Rate of suicides is per 100,000 population. It is irrelevant to the total population size, as it deals per 100,000. Not per total population. It deals in percentage, thats why the percentage of population committing suicide in USA is higher than the percentage of population committing suicide in Afganistan.
My opponent says that birth rates cant be higher in Afghanistan because Afghanistan has less population than USA. Birth rates are per 1000 women, not per total population. It is irrelevant that USA has more population, as US too had higher birth rates while it promoted hate towards homosexuals. The population of Afghanistan currently grows faster than US population by percentage of growth.
My opponent says: "How happy are these people when you punish their freedom?". "Is it because of homosexuality or is it because of the peoples mindset towards homosexuals that's causing it?"
Countries that have more homosexual freedom also have more suicides and lower birth rates. Countries that promote hate towards homosexuals have less suicides and higher birth rates. That proves how accepting homosexuals causes suicides. Preventing suicides is good, so we should hate and ban homosexuality. If happiness was more important than life, then that is contradictive, because you cannot have happiness without life and destroying life destroys happiness. If you think it is okay to destroy lives in order to be happy, then that further justifies pedophilia.”
As of this one, sure. I didn’t correctly read the rates. But doesn’t that happen to us all, homosexual or not? Is it the person's fault for being homosexual or is it because of the stigma they receive?
For example, children can bully another for their race, and they commit suicide, but that isn’t because that is their biological race. It's because of the negative bullying they recieve.
And can you prove these suicides are because they are homosexuals? Nope. You just put random sucide rates out there. Yet, most you cannot prove where because they are homosexuals. In fact, you never state why they commit sucide. So, this is irrelevant to the discussion.
As for the contention name, I don’t think it increases mental illness nor do you have proof right now.
“5) Homosexuality is worse than pedophilia by objective standard = Dropped, Extend.
Add: My opponent says that saying "homosexuality is worse than pedophilia" justifies pedophilia. It does not. Saying "two murders are worse than one murder" doesnt justify "one murder".
Both homosexuality and pedophilia are bad. However, homosexuality is much worse. Therefore, accepting homosexuality is a slippery slope towards accepting pedophilia.
My opponent says: "Usually pedophilia is referred to as attraction while as homosexuality is referred to as sexual orientation.". My opponent defined homosexuality as sexual attraction. Plus, sexual orientation is a sexual attraction, so my opponent needs to read his definitions better.”
When did I say homosexuality is worse than pedophilla.. Homosexuality is not bad, pedophilla is bad. They are two different things.
My definitions in my eyes are fine. Pedophilla is attraction ONLY attraction. Sexual orientation is attracted to the same sex, or opposite, etc. See the difference?
What gender you like versus who you're dating.
“6) Conclusion
We have seen that homosexuality has no positive effects on population. We have seen that homosexuality is bad for society, that it includes underage relationships and that it justifies pedophilia. Accepting homosexuality increases suicides and lowers birth rates. We have seen that even very poor countries that punish homosexuality have less suicides and higher birth rates than countries that encourage homosexuality. We have seen that forced conversion therapy would punish homosexuality and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, and that would help society. Forced conversion would help society by lowering suicides, lowering amount of mental illnesses and increasing birth rates.”
Incorrect to a degree. Which I explain in my rebuttals.
Round four 1/2:
Con drops all my contentions in the process of extending theres.
So, extend. Burden is shared; not just countering my opponent.
Rebuttals:
“1) Definition includes underage homosexuality. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: Homosexuality does include underage homosexuality, which is a type of pedophilia. So we could say that homosexuality by the given definition already justified pedophilia. In those cases, conversion therapy would be most necessary.”
This was not really dropped..
Con seems to use justifying in the wrong way; nowhere does it support it. Where does it say children can date adults? It doesn't. Because it's not talking about age gaps, it's talking about sexual preference. Such as being straight, nowhere does it say that being a pedo is right. Same thing applies to homosexuals.
Just because it can/does happen does not mean it's because of homosexuality.
Con misplaces the wrong justification.
“2) Children would be exposed to homosexuality. Since children are sensitive, they can easily develop feelings towards same sex. = Dropped, Extend.
Add: I said that homosexuality would encourage underage homosexuality. My opponent said that thats pedophilia. So we can conclude that homosexuality encourages pedophilia then.”
No? I do not agree. Which is explained above, in your contention, pedophila.
“My opponent says that conversion therapy wouldnt prevent underage homosexuality. However, it would be useful, since it would give homosexuals a chance to change their behavior and let everyone know that its wrong. Therefore, homosexuals would conceal their behavior, and children would be less exposed to it.
My opponent says: "If they were in that type of relationship, how many are actually in that kind of relationship? Is this relationship forced?".
If a 12 year-old boy is willingly in a relationship with 30 year-old man, it still stands that such relationship is wrong. Such homosexual relationships are products of encouraging homosexuality. Therefore, discouraging all homosexuality would discourage such relationships.”
No.. In my contention I said conversion therapy has shown and been proven not to help at all but leave negative effects.
As for your example, homosexuality does not in any way define that the relationship is right. The sexual orientation, however, is. I explain this above as well.
“3) Conversion therapy would serve as punishment for homosexuality. Conversion therapy would discourage homosexuality. = Dropped,Extend.
Add: Conversion therapy is useful as punishment and an attempt to prevent individuals from engaging in gay sex. There will be some cases where conversion therapy wont work. Then the death penalty will be necessary. Conversion therapy is there to see if individual can be fixed without being killed, since in some cases individual can choose to supress his urges. In cases where he cant, then the death penalty will cure him. Conversion therapy is necessary to give every homosexual a chance to reject his homosexuality, save his life and improve it. It lets everyone know that homosexuality is wrong. That will lower public displays of homosexuality, and lower the exposure of children to homosexuality, as all public homosexuality will be reported and dealt with.”
Con proves nothing here.
I already stated that conversion therapy does not help at all with research behind it. Con has not.
As for a death penalty the United States rarely gives them for criminals, why for homosexuals who have done nothing wrong?
Sure, thanks.
If you didnt mean to forfeit a round and if you have a round ready, you can paste it in the comments and I will agree that those comments count in the debate.
...Yeah um.. At least I have my response typed out?
"I won't be responding until next round"
I will wait until there is 1 day left to post an argument.
Usually I don't host debates and wait for someone to participate. I tend to only accept debates and agree to participate rather than being blind-folded to whom my opponent is.
"I don't like putting myself out there blind-folded to whomever debates me but whatever.."
I dont know what that means, but I will agree to participate.
I was contemplating on responding, but i'm willing to throw out my deck. Even if the other side has an advantage on my response, I am somewhat confident i'll win this.. that is if someone accepts.
Yeah, that's why I included 'forced'. If someone wants to try liking another gender or becoming hetrosexual through therapy, sure. However, it's not even proven that this therapy helps.
And the most likely reason that someone wants to change their sexual orientation is because of stigma regarding being homosexual.
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Not only would it be forced but also harmful to the individual. Personally, I don't care if they reproduce or not, can they? Yeah. However I don't believe they have to reproduce.
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So yes, you are correct. They are definitely harmful, it can even include electric shocks. Though that is one of the most harmful and isn't/wasn't used all the time, obviously. But it isn't just a possibility of physical and mental harm that is done while they are there.
There are higher possibilities of attempted suicide, illegal drugs, HIVS and STDS and depression.
Arguably 'some individuals aren't 'as gay as others,
And might be able to get to like the opposite sex.
Some homosexuals might 'want to habituate themselves against their nature,
For whatever reason of culture or beliefs,
Lot's on instincts, people can be born to, yet people want to overcome it.
. . .
That said, I don't really care if other people are homosexual, (Mostly)
And prefer heterosexuality not be 'forced on people against their consent.
In some countries, I've read people don't care 'as much,
So long as their child produces and heir, continues the family line.
. . .
Likely many 'methods of conversion are badly done though,
I've read.