“the overall claim being made by my opponent is a horrific oversimplification.” This is a false statement stated by my opponent because of what the bible says.
“This can be alternatively referred to as a
Single Cause Fallacy.” I don’t think the single cause fallacy applies here because I think that they are different concepts.
“To help the audience begin to grasp just how complex this issue is, and why it can't simply be boiled down to declaring a deity "evil" merely because you disagree with it” I don’t care what God believes. I care about what he does. An example I would like to point out is Kim Jong Un. He has committed human rights abuses to millions of people. He is a bad entity because he does bad things. Science confirms that there have been about 100 billion humans in the history of planet Earth, 94% of which are dead(). Since the bible states that most of us are burning in hell, that means that God commits human rights abuses to tens of billions of people, a few thousand times more frequently than Kim Jun Un. God also makes them suffer in hell more than Kim Jong Un does in death camps. As harsh as the North Korean death camps are, hell is much, much worse then any death camp that could have been invented by mankind.
Time for me to analyze/rebuttal the
Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy;
“The views about hell in particular include very different conceptions of divine love, divine justice, and divine grace, very different ideas about free will and its role (if any) in determining a person’s ultimate destiny,” What other views are there? Where in the bible does it state that hell won’t be eternally torturous, or extremely painful?
“But
the meaning of these texts, particularly when read in their original languages, is rarely transparent to all reasonable interpreters; that is, not even all who regard a relevant text as authoritative seem able to agree on its correct interpretation.” Where in the bible does it state that hell won’t be eternally torturous, or extremely painful? I’ll cite my bible verses later since you ask for proof later in your argument.
“In other words, people a lot more knowledgeable on the topic with much greater education can't even agree on the basic facts which my opponent has alleged.” In order for this to be true, the side denying what God would have said would need biblical evidence to support this.
Here, you basically say that since God is God, he can do whatever he wants. However, this applies an inconsistent moral standard to a hypocritical God who says that “Thou shall not murder”. Although God is more powerful than any of us, it is unjustified for him to burn people in hell forever, especially for trivial sins such as for lying, for adultery, and for not attending Church on the Sabbath. Although these actions may be slightly bad, none of them are worthy of an eternal punishment in hell.
“But what about Jesus’s Sacrifice. He paid for your big boy sins in full” you may ask. Even Jesus Christ has incredibly tough standards for accepting his promises. He says to sell all you have and give to the poor(
http://biblicaltheologytoday.com/go-sell-give-poor/)(Matthew 19:21). While I am not advocating for this, it shows just how strict Jesus wants us to live in order to serve him well enough to be able to accept him as our savior. While you may cite various other verses, these verses have a strong tendency to be Old Testament and therefore, not as reliable as the New Testament when analyzing the strict code of Christianity. Maybe that is why many religious nations tend to be poor. They choose to be. Since most people don’t do this, Jesus says that he doesn’t accept them into salvation. He says it’s easier to put a camel through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Time for me to prove that the bible says:
- "Most" people will go to hell: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)/https://biblehub.com/matthew/19-21.htm
- All of those people will be there "forever."
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:40-46/
https://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/passage/?q=matthew+25:40-46 - "No one" in hell deserves to be there.
- That this makes God "evil" beyond any shadow of doubt.
“the Bible holds only a scant few references” The bible still references it. We know a satisfactory amount about hell to determine the content of this debate. People have different opinions, but I don’t think those opinions are founded upon by New Testament bible verses.
One of these views is the view of
Annihilationism. “This view argues that although hell does exist and some people will be sent there, they will not be there "forever" as my opponent claims.“ How is
Annihilationism backed by the bible?
“Even some members of the Roman Catholic Church have broken with the Church to advocate this view.” Like whom?
The
Universal Reconciliation view requires New Testament biblical evidence in order to be a legitimate source on how people get to heaven/how they go to hell.
“...
no traditional Christian doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment. Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before.” Many Protestant denominations believe in eternal hell so to say that almost no one believes it is like this is simply false.
“my opponent has to establish that there is something inherently evil about hell itself.” In hell, the following occurs:
- Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
- Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
- Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone.
“there is already significant doubt that "most" people go to hell or that they remain there "forever" as my opponent claims.” I confirmed that if the Christian God exists, then most people are going to hell with Matthew 7:13-14. The verse, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)
“Secondly, the claim that "no one deserves" to go to hell is a terribly high burden to meet, because of the inherently subjective nature of this opinion.” I said no one deserves to burn in hell
forever. All those people that you mentioned may deserve hell for some time, but they don’t deserve it forever.
“God does not send anyone to Hell.” He sends people to hell for disobeying him. We say, “My parents sent me to time out” not, “I sent myself to time out”. This also would be like saying that Stalin did not send Russians to death camps, but rather the Russians chose to go there for disobeying Stalin. If it were in Stalin’s power, he would have made the Gulags an eternal punishment. None of the Russians that suffered in the Gulags/Death camps deserved it forever, and similarly, no one deserves to burn in hell forever. God is worse than Stalin since God commits much worse human rights abuses to tens of billions of people. If you would say that the people God kills are sinful, doesn’t this also apply to Stalin. They people he killed weren’t perfect. Even though Stalin wasn't perfect, is he doing God’s work with the Gulags?
Make no mistake – hell is not a place where people are simply “sent to.” “Just as there is a way that leads to heaven, there is also a way that leads to hell – and it’s heavily signposted. It’s a path that someone decides to take, a direction they have been heading in and a course they have set, long before they get there.” The way to heaven is extremely strict and the failure to do what orders you to without repentance results in eternal hell. Can you imagine if someone killed you for not attending a meeting? Well, God is doing much worse than killing you, for a similar offense (not attending Church for example, a weekly meeting that God requires all followers to attend).
“of which he seems to have only the most rudimentary knowledge.” Here, he calls me stupid, and I would like the judge to classify this as poor conduct.
“The people who will end up in hell, whomever they are and whatever sort of life they may have lived, will finally arrive there
because they simply rejected God, and not for any other reason” God has strict standards for them to live by. He demands that we sell all we have and give to the poor. People shouldn’t have to choose between being incredibly poor and burning in hell as their only 2 reality options. However, this is how God set it up due to the sinfulness that humanity inherited. He also is according to many secular personnel someone who advocates for the death of children for cursing their parents. The Bible states, “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” (Matthew 15:4)
“because we do not believe we deserve to go there. Why? Because we are not murderers or rapists (most of us).” Murderers and rapists don’t deserve to go there either, at least not forever.
“We are being compared with God himself. Do you think you fall short when compared with perfection?” God is not perfect. He claims to be multiple times in the bible, but this is him making a claim without any evidence. Him advocating for the death of various groups for a small to no offence is an example of him not being perfect, despite his book stating the opposite.
“He is required to allow us into His heaven or that He should be labeled "evil" for sending something that He created to a place that He created?” This is just like saying that child abuse should be legal because if your argument were applied to parents, it would be, “Should this parent be labeled as, “evil” for torturing a child in a place that he owns?” Just because you create something does not mean you have a right to torture that human in a place that you create.
“Arguing that God owes us something is like arguing that Pizza Hut owes something to a cardboard box used to deliver a pizza, or that Pizza Hut is "evil" for throwing away unused boxes.” Pizza Hut owns the pizza boxes. They can do what they want with them. God on the other hand, dos not own us anymore then our parents do. They both created us. Just because you create something does not mean you own it. Moreover, there is not much of a correlation between owning something and creating it. I may own an apple, but did I create it? No. Did a farmer create it? No. He made it by taking care of an apple tree. But he made it from other materials, not creating it from nothing. Just because you create something does not mean you own it and vice versa.
“So why should we get to label a power greater than ourselves as anything at all? Who are we to decide?” As an example, this is like me asking, “Why should we label Bernie Sanders? He is a power greater than ourselves.” It doesn’t matter how powerful someone is. If they commit things that are bad, then they should be held accountable for their actions.
“We are saying that we know better than God, and that his morality is subject to ours.” While God is smarter than Humans in general, it would be safe to say that humans know more then God in terms of justice for humans. God has gone corrupt with his power. You like quoting philosophers a lot. I would like to quote someone similar, Brutal Truth. He said:
The following verses are a classic example of wholesale slaughter and rape under the direction of the same God they claim to be so merciful. A quick sample of this tale: On the way to the promised land, God had Moses wage a war campaign against the Midian. Moses was told to put every Midianite to death, plunder anything of value, set fire to their towns where they lived and all their encampments. Moses gave the orders to his troops (the sons of Israel) and went on a further campaign. On the return of his troops Moses was enraged with the commanders of the army. He said, “Why have you spared the life of all the women and children? You are to kill all the children and kill all the women who have slept with a man. The lord says spare the lives only of the young girls who have not slept with a man, and take them for yourselves, so that we may multiply into a great nation.” Yes, friends, this is biblical infinite mercy and compassion for you. I particularly like the way that Moses got upset with them for sparing women and male children, but allowed the young girls to be kept for later raping.
I have had some Christians proclaim that these Midianite girls were not taken for raping but marriage. How ridiculous! If you continue further in the scripture you will find that marriage to a Midianite was a crime against God. A man named Zimri broke the law and married a Midianite woman. This angered God so he sent a plague among the Hebrews.
“God’s morality must conform to ours.” The Old Testament preaches morality, but in practice, it kills people for belonging to a different tribe, which is SJW in a nutshell (punishing the whole group for the actions of the few). The New Testament, the ones Christians love to point out due to its relative earthbound civility, states that most of us are burning in hell forever in Matthew, that hell is extremely painful in Matthew and other bible authors, and they somehow claim that humans deserve to burn there for mostly trivial sins.
Good to know. Thanks for all your feedback!
I’ve seen this type of argument multiple times, so I think it’s fairly common. I made a variation of it years ago myself - but using Saddam Hussein, on MySpace - so that kinda dates it.
Of course! I'm glad to get your perspective on this. I'm sure I will hear an argument like this again someday and having an opportunity to refine my response is helpful. Out of curiosity, have you ever seen anyone else attempt a Stalin->God comparison before? Is that a common Atheist viewpoint as far as you know?
Bear in mind these responses aren’t a reason why your arguments were bad - simply my opinion (as an Atheist) as to how you could make it harder to argue against.
It was a good rebuttal with some limitations.
If he had made the same argument about Stalin, and argued if Stalin had made a rule that everyone who said anything bad about Stalin should be shot on sight, that it would not have been Stalin ordering people to their death, it would have been their own choice - that would have been a good argument that was directly equivalent. That’s what I was trying to get at with my RfD.
So, did you find it to be a good rebuttal in the way he used it, in response to where one of my sources claimed that God doesn't send people to hell? Or are you saying that he should have fleshed this out further to try to compare God to Stalin and gulags to hell?
Yes, i think it was specifically incomplete - but is a great explanatory example - when you can change the word God for Stalin, and make an argument is a fairly compelling moral argument it implies immorality using an agreed baseline, rather than having to specifically prove one example of another.
When you refer to his Stalin argument, do you mean where he said; "This also would be like saying that Stalin did not send Russians to death camps, but rather the Russians chose to go there for disobeying Stalin."
If you’re arguing God, and talking about Biblical questions and quotations as pro did - fight the ground that is strongest for you. In this case, using
Blocks citations and theological principles would have been better. Arguing from a secular position massively weakens your position in my view, as you cut off the biggest source of support for your arguments
This is purely personal preference: but the strongest way, in my view, that you could have argued this, is to have offered a specific framework then defended that framework. While your argument is valid, it was a bit of a patchwork of different examples and positions that made it harder for you to defend as a whole and tie everything together; that’s not to say that you’re argument was poor.
As a hard core Atheist, I don’t think this would have been too hard for me to argue against the individual points you made: the only argument I could have made against you presenting and defending a framework, is biblical support - which immediately gives you the advantage with your excellent interpretation argument.
Saying that, you didn’t do badly by any means, pro was hampered by the forfeits, and very short dismissive rebuttals.
Note that his Stalin rebuttal was really good - if you’re interested in atheism debates, this is a great example of one individual point.
I guess I also avoided using "specific examples" because I wanted to make an argument from as much of a "secular" position as possible, so that even non-christians who disagree with the Bible in general could follow along with my reasoning. Do you think it would have been better to have taken a "more theological" approach and responded to his Bible citations with counter-citations?
Interesting. So, if I understand correctly, you wanted to see more of an explanation of how hell (somewhat regardless of the "forever" angle) is moral beyond merely refuting Pro's interpretation? I could have gone that way, but to do that I would have probably had to completely alter the approach and not even addressed point #2. I felt that if I undermined the specific wording of his argument, specifically the claim that hell is proven to be "forever" then trying to explain the morality of hell would be largely unnecessary. In fact, the two things somewhat would contradict each other, because most sources I could draw upon to defend the morality of hell tend to take the "forever" stance, and the sources that oppose the "forever" interpretation tend to brush off the moral argument because it's largely moot if you don't think people will be there forever. So... I suppose I could do what you are suggesting, but it may require a lot more research, some more specific sources and a much longer argument (30,000 characters per round would have been necessary, most likely). I'll definitely take that under consideration for the future.
Yeah, that certain collection... but anyway, please do! I'm especially looking for feedback on if what I presented was able to be easily understood by a "secular" audience or if it was too theological/apologetic for the average person to see what I was driving at. And even if Alec didn't refute all my points, I'm curious to see how well his overall argument stands up to the way I attacked it.
Generally speaking, as I can’t score conduct: there wouldn’t be any specific impact from the forfeit, other than if one side made a good argument that isn’t refuted. It’s hard to determine a winner without considering unrefuted arguments - but if both sides are happy with me doing so I can provide constructive feedback in the RFD of both sides along with the decision.
I’ve generally started avoiding doing that, as it seems a collection of individuals are unable to discern constructive feedback portions, from my actual decision.
Alec, just to clarify, judged debates don't have any effect on your rating, so it won't actually matter who wins/loses/ties in this debate. It's basically just bragging points, at best.
Ramshutu, even though my opponent ran out of time, I hope you can score this debate as though it wasn't a forfeit. I hit this one with everything I had and I actually want to see how effective I was at convincing you on this topic.
There is probably an option that says "other" or something along those lines.
At the time I made that, I would call myself a Christian who hates God. I should change it but I don't know what to change it too.
But your profile also says you are a Christian and you argued that God is evil. So I dunno how much we aught to trust profiles on this site...
As of right now, your profile does.
I don't vote on my own debate and this is the last round, so there is no further action I can take anyway. It will be up to Ramshutu to decide how to weigh everything. Besides, who said I was a Christian?
I apologize for forfeiting. I think I was too involved with schoolwork. Given that your a Christian, I would expect you to forgive me for the forfeit. It's the Christian thing to do after all.
Very interesting to debate an opinion.
This is a much more interesting read than I thought it would be from the topic. Will be voting. :)