Instigator / Pro
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Topic
#4349
You cannot find a bonafide contradiction in the scriptures.
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Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
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Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
Biblical contradictions you find not. Any you think you can find or think you have found, I will attempt to debunk them as contradictions that are perceived to be.
Questions on the topic, leave them in the comments.
Round 1
You can present what you have.
- “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8
“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5 - “… the earth abideth for ever.” — Ecclesiastes 1:4
“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” — 2Peter 3:10 - “… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30
“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18 - “The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20
“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5
Round 2
Of course atheists that don't believe in scriptures reject spiritual understanding, so it all would appear contradictory to them.
One thing I see on what's presented is scripture not in full context.
I'm not getting what the contradiction is in Exodus and Romans. You'll have to explain where the contradiction is supposed to be in those passages presented.
Ecclesiastes 1:4, the whole verse.
"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."
OH, the earth abides always as it is while everything else keeps changing such as the generations that come and go.
Another harmonical element is that there will always be something called earth .
Ecclesiastes 1:11
" There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after."
Find the connection with Isaiah 65:17
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
What's called an earth will always be .
No contradiction as long as you take the full context of Ecclesiastes. The book of Ecclesiastes is an essence of different times and seasons.
Now the John 1:18, one of the things if not the first thing that came to mind was another scripture in John 6.
John 6 and at verse 46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."
So no man has seen God . That is until the exception by the mercy of God.
Jacob in Genesis 32 saw God face to face and was preserved.
In Exodus 32:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
But back up to verse 11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face".
Now out of context, it appears to be contrary. But we see the exception in John 6 and God can say no man can see His face except where He shows mercy and those that found grace in His sight.
Exodus 32:17 "And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."
Down at verse 18 " And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The rest of what you presented, I fail to see for what could appear to be a contradiction just by reading it. Many times when these things aren't read as written allowing the mind to presuppose, your interpretation creates the contradictions in your understanding.
I'd advise to know or recognize what the contradictions are to you and not just post what other folks think are contradictions to them.
God is thought to be all-powerful, so it stands to reason that he should be able to defeat his enemies. Right??
“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26
“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19
If God is omnipotent, why was he powerless against men with iron chariots?
Perhaps there’s limitations to God’s “divinity.”
Round 3
Ok this is a rather lengthy explanation but I wanted to give a substance filled response instead of a superficial shallow response.
Let's start with your question.
"If God is omnipotent, why was he powerless against men with iron chariots? "
First off , this verse in the book of Judges the first chapter, verse 19 did not say anything about God being powerless or not being able to do it.
If you understood the context in this chapter of Judges and I had to take some time myself, it's dealing with the people of Israel going into battle. Actually going back a chapter going backwards into the last book right before Judges, which is the book of Joshua , helps build the situation.
I can say at face value , the LORD was with Judah. Doesn't mean the LORD decided to help the fight against the chariots fitted with iron. So the actual question would be, why didn't the LORD help the children of Israel triumph?
But that wasn't asked. The assumption was made as it appears that the LORD was unable drive out or drave out the people.
More presupposing and eisegesis conjuring up contradictions that aren't there.
So in short , on second thought, I'll cut this response shorter than intended because of your question.
"If God is omnipotent, why was he powerless against men with iron chariots? "
In short, verse 19 in the first chapter book of Judges didn't say He was.
Since Pro cannot source his interpretation of the context, treat it as an unsubstantiated claim.
If we take the verse in context, it very clearly states God was helping Judah but was powerless against the iron chariots.
Here’s another contradiction.
“Honor thy father and thy mother…”– Exodus 20:12
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” — Luke 14:26
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” — Luke 14:26
Extend all previous verses.
Round 4
"Since Pro cannot source his interpretation of the context, treat it as an unsubstantiated claim. "
The difference perhaps between you and I, I'm reading the verse as written. You have your own interpretation causing you to add words to the text that aren't there
"If we take the verse in context, it very clearly states God was helping Judah but was powerless against the iron chariots. "
Let's look at this verse and you indicate to us where it says the words "GOD WAS POWERLESS ".
Judges 1:19
"So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron."
We don't see the words "GOD WAS POWERLESS " in that verse. You have to add those words to read that which is called reading into the text. This is how you arrive at your phony contradictions .
It's not worth it to deliberately lie on scripture in order to call yourself winning a debate. Let God be true and every man a liar. That's the approach you take to the scriptures. Atheists that believe in contradictions say God is the liar and they're true.
If you don't know scripture, stay out of it.
"“Honor thy father and thy mother…”– Exodus 20:12
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” — Luke 14:26".
You'll have to be explicit here and point out which words contradict each other.
See if you don't know scripture but regurgitate what others SAY are contradictions, you post these things and don't even know or not if what you posted helps your case or does nothing for it.
The Bible is demanding people to honor their parents, while encouraging them to hate them. The two are mutually exclusive.
As for the verse about God and Judah, the implication is God’s power was too weak to overcome the enemies with chariots. Unless you can provide proof that your context is the correct one, mine shall remain.
Extend everything.
Round 5
Luke
"26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
In this context of "hate" , it's about following Jesus. What it takes , what it means , to what extent?
I'm going to show what I believe of the "hate" you're thinking about because apparently you think"hate" and honor are opposites. No, love and hate are opposites. That's why I asked which words of these verses are contradicting to you.
I can strongly dislike you while keeping respect for you. Take two people that work on a job. One doesn't withhold or prevent the other from doing their job in their rightful place in order for them to support themselves and their own. No value is taken. I have my feelings but no value of regard is taken away .
I give you another example in the film "Fences", Denzel Washington's character told his son that liking him wasn't part of the deal. It's got nothing to do with the job of being a father which he owned that responsibility. Whether he liked him or not took no value of his job towards a person in which that value reflected.
This is why asked what is the contradicting terms. You provided no scripture where it said honor and another where it said don't honor. See, to you , it's what you think are contradictions. Which is what I asked. But because it's what you think, thinking and knowing are two different things. When you know you have something that is factual because it's a fact, it's authentic, not what you believe, but is bonafide.
Off that alone, cased closed.
But let's go even deeper with this.
In Luke 14
"28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace."
When you're not prepared, you don't have what it takes to suffice putting up a building or to go to war.
Even if you think you are ready for war, the preparation is in vain as your so called enemy is looking for peace. So you're still not prepared for the correct path.
As Isaiah 9 and 6 would call Him the Prince of peace.
So you have to have what is suffice to follow Him.
In verse 33:
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."
The scripture uses the figurative language of hate to the point of what forsaking all else and others to follow Jesus would present like in the like manner of hate. It's the hate on your own self, the denial of your own self, the denial of others, denial of the world and having the love of Jesus more than all else and others. That's what it means to forsake those things because you're going to follow Jesus. This is what suffices and what you have to be prepared for.
The scripture that would appear like a contradiction would be the one about love . Love is opposed to hate .
This scripture in Luke 14 indicates to hate one's own life.
Now see this scripture.
Matthew 22:39
"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
We're going to see why love itself is to follow the LORD.
The "hate" you're thinking about is associated with evil .
Leviticus 19:17-18
“You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."
But the context in Luke 14 is dealing with following Jesus being described as a hatred of others. What is the difference?
You follow Jesus's ways, you love Him, you love His ways. You don't follow others ways or your ways. You don't love others ways not of Jesus. You don't love your ways not of Jesus.
We read in 1 JOHN 2 :
"15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
The things that are of others that are not of the LORD but of the world, do not love.
This causes division and a war between those following Jesus loving Him more than all else.
In Matthew 10, starting at verse 32.
“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."
See, this is all in the context of love. You love the Lord, you don't deny Him, you follow Him. You don't follow yourself , you deny yourself as we read in Matthew 16 .
"24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
So because of all this, what happens?
We continue to read in Matthew 10.
"35 For I have come to ‘set[j] a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. "
So we're getting that the love of Jesus is more than the love of all else to follow him. So not only loving Jesus but to point of hating all else to follow Him.
Now again, not the hatred associated with evil, doing evil on someone. But the hate of evil to love and follow the Lord according to the scriptures.
Psalms 97 , the love to the Lord.
In verse 10 "O you who love the Lord, hate evil! ".
The hate on a brother to do evil is not the love of the Lord. Now it can seem convoluted to a person that doesn't understand but that's how deep this is and a distinguishing has to be made.
1 JOHN 3
"11 For[am] this is the gospel[an] message[ao] that you have heard from the beginning: that we should love one another,[ap] 12 not like Cain[aq] who was of the evil one and brutally[ar] murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his deeds were evil, but his brother’s were righteous.
13 Therefore do not be surprised, brothers and sisters,[as] if the world hates you.[at] 14 We know that[au] we have crossed over[av] from death to life[aw] because[ax] we love our fellow Christians.[ay] The one who does not love remains in death.[az] 15 Everyone who hates his fellow Christian[ba] is a murderer,[bb] and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing[bc] in him. 16 We have come to know love by this:[bd] that Jesus[be] laid down[bf] his life for us"
From verse 11-15, it describes the hate associated with evil which does go hand in hand with sin.
Those with this hate to use evil on someone is not the gospel which would be the opposite called love. In verse 16 , this love is in Jesus laying down his life on the cross that if those pick up their cross and follow Him have eternal life and have the love for Him and one another not to hate in evil but to hate that which does not follow Him which would be that evil way not to be made a Christian/disciple.
Here's another passage on top of this if you couldn't get the message by now that the scripture is against hating one another. That is at least in the subject of destroying one another. We have to make a recognizable distinguishing. Everything that's wrong or evil in the bible is always associated with death and destruction. So the context of that is always key when looking at anything that is forbidden.
1 JOHN 4, starting at verse 20.
"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
So there's command to love. But then Luke 14, what gives?
But love itself is to follow Jesus, when you follow Him , you love others, commit no hate which conveys to being a murderer. But then you do hate in order not to follow anybody else other than Jesus.
In order to condense this down , I'll summarize it starting back again at Matthew 10. I can imagine all of this can draw a person back and forth, to and fro like an amusement park ride that makes their stomach turn, ok.
Matthew 10
"37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. "
You love Jesus Christ more than anyone else to follow Him. You love Him more, therefore you love others less. Now being that this is depicted in this way by the scripture, the scripture shows the love over Christ more than anything. The scripture depicts in a strong way that this love is so much more , the love for anything else is so much less, so much so infinitesimally, it's hate. That's how strong the love in Christ is to follow Him.
Think of it like a positive and negative range of a scale meter. Leaning so much more heavily up on the positive side, the other side continues to lower into the negative which is the exact opposite. That being hate is the exact opposite. Not to be confused with hate meaning evil and hatred to cause war and destruction. But describing the stronger pull of love to one side versus the other.
Once more , hate and honor can co-exist. I could of just stopped there but I was compelled to demonstrate all this I've said so we can learn.
Hate and honor can co-exist in a job situation. For instance two people that are co-starring in a feature. They detest and disgust each other. But they don't lose value to the professionalism or the respect of them both doing their jobs. That's highly honorable.
Back on the passage in the book of Judges. We simply do not read the words" God was powerless". You and I know that . You can ask a child does he or she read those words "God was powerless". We teach them not to lie so they say no. That goes for anybody else.
Now if you want to know why God didn't help them triumph against the chariots fitted with iron , that's a different question. But you're not making the inquiry and made no effort to request one. No surprise there. You rather just add to scripture which you're in violation of Proverbs 30 when you do that.
You must love in order to have honor.
Extend.
