Instigator / Pro
0
1420
rating
398
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Topic
#4346
You cannot find a bonafide contradiction in the scriptures.
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Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
b9_ntt
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- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
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- One month
- Point system
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- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
3
1500
rating
2
debates
75.0%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
Biblical contradictions you find not. Any you think you can find or think you have found, I will attempt to debunk them as contradictions that are perceived to be.
Questions on the topic, leave them in the comments.
Round 1
To respond to some comments, this is whatever you think are biblical contradictions. If you think a message, a word , a translation, a transliteration is a contradiction, bring it up and we can go over it.
The four gospels disagree about almost everything surrounding Jesus' death and resurrection. They can't all be true. Here is a sample.
1.) Jesus' last words were "...thou forsaken me" / "Into thy hands..." / "It is finished."
Mt 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
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Lk 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
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Jn 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
2.) Joseph of Arimathaea boldly / secretly asked for the body of Jesus.
Mk 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body.
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Jn 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews.
3.) The tomb was opened / closed when the women arrived.
Mk 16:4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
Lk 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Lk 24:2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Jn 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
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Mt 28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Mt 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
4.) At the tomb the women saw an angel / a young man / two men / two angels.
Mt 28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Mt 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
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Mk 16:5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
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Lk 24:3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Lk 24:4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.
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Jn 20:11 but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb Jn 20:12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
5.) The women did / did not tell the disciples the tomb was empty.
Mt 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Lk 24:9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.
Jn 20:2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
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Mk 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
6.) Mary did / did not recognize Jesus when he first appeared to her.
Mt 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
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Jn 20:14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
7.) The disciples were frightened / overjoyed when they saw Jesus.
Lk 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” Lk 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
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Jn 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Jn 20:20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
8.) The resurrected Jesus told his disciples to go to Galilee / stay in Jerusalem.
Mt 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
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Lk 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Ac 1:3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. Ac 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
Round 2
This is very straightforward so my response is pretty condensed.
All these four accounts are like witness testimonies.
Witness reports can or tend to vary by point of view,by spreading of information.
We apparently observe this in courtrooms.
In addition , don't always expect a chronological order of reports to events.
Since contradiction was not given a special definition in the description, notes, or opening round of this debate, I think it is reasonable for me to use the generally accepted dictionary definition of the word in this debate, as follows.
contradiction
· n. a combination of statements, ideas, or features which are opposed to one another; the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
– PHRASES contradiction in terms a statement or group of words associating incompatible objects or ideas.
Concise Oxford Dictionary - 10th Ed.
The bible quotations I have used are from the New International Version, which is currently popular among many Christians.
The Bible is a book of text. I have quoted eight groups of passages from that book. Each group contains two or more passages which obviously contradict each other, given the plain meaning of the text.
Whether any given passages represent a true account of the events they describe is irrelevant. I have only to show that there are contradictions in the text. I have done that and I claim victory in this debate.
Round 3
You may have conflicting testimonies but not biblical conflicts.
How are these two different?
Each person can have their own account of an event. The event is not in conflict. From what I can see from the text, I don't even see conflict but more so variation.
Do you have anything that are actual biblical conflicts?
For instance, one scripture says the Father (God)will judge no man and another saying God will judge.
A biblical conflict, not a variation in a writer's point of view in the bible.
After seeing your response in Round 2, I saw that we differed in our understanding of the debate topic. So I wrote you a note asking for clarification.
Now in round 3, ignoring my note, you define the terms in your favor, in such a way that you can re-use your Round 2 argument and exclude mine.
How convenient.
However,
Do you have anything that are actual biblical conflicts?For instance, one scripture says the Father (God) will judge no man and another saying God will judge.
I will take you at your word.
ONE GOSPEL, BOTH DIRECT QUOTES FROM JESUS
Mt 26:11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.
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Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Round 4
This brings to mind where Jesus said "I go to my Father and you see me no more."
That's in John 16:10. Let's go there and drop down to verse 16.
“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me."
Oh so this is a harmonical thread. Being that "you will see Me", who's to say that can't be for always?
From Matthew 26:
"11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. "
It came to me upon reading this. Jesus can't be with them always when He's preordained to die.
"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen. "
Always with them having the authority having them follow His commands, observing and all He taught, He's with them. There is no separation by still following Him as the apostles they were.
Your rebuttal doesn’t make much sense to me.
Oh so this is a harmonical thread. Being that "you will see Me", who's to say that can't be for always?
He said it himself, in Matt. 26:11 & in John 16:10 & 16.
Why does always mean always in Matt. 28:20, and not always in the other verses?
HERE ARE TWO MORE DIRECT QUOTES FROM JESUS
Mt 25:34, “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."
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Jn 14:2, "In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
IS JESUS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PLACE IN BOTH QUOTES?
Round 5
*He said it himself, in Matt. 26:11 & in John 16:10 & 16.
Why does always mean always in Matt. 28:20, and not always in the other verses?"
It's because of context, context, context . Notice that when things are taken out of it, we can fabricate false contradictions.
So be attentive to the different contexts I explain. Then if you have questions about a particular context, we can get into that.
Just to recap because you said it ain't make sense, let's go over this again.
"From Matthew 26:
"11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. " "
How can you be with someone at all times or always if you die and are buried away from them somewhere? Do you follow now?
In the context of Matthew 28, that's after the death, burial and resurrection so of course He's with those Apostles always.On top of that, the apostles still following His authority, His commands, making more followers and disciples always with Him.
Context, context, context, context, context, context, like it's redundant. But until it's ingrained in your head, so be it .
"IS JESUS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PLACE IN BOTH QUOTES?"
Matthew 25:34
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."
John 14:2
"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
"IS JESUS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PLACE IN BOTH QUOTES?"
I'm going to give multiple answers and scenarios and they're quite valid.
John 14 didn't say kingdom. Just off that alone, these can be two different things being prepared.
That's number one.
Number two, the Son said"In my Father's house ". Ok so it's already there and yet He says I go to prepare a place for you. So are there multiple things here with one already prepared and the other going to be?
In my Father's house there will be or there are? See that.
You probably could of accused this one single verse contradicting itself. Is the house the kingdom? What place is being prepared besides that?
Now watch this . Let's go with it being a double statement.
This place He's going to prepare now was prepared from the foundation of the world.
It's the same thing in Revelation 13 I believe about the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
See, one thing to learn about scripture, things are preordained like they've already happened solidified to play out in time. Like Romans 4 says calling those things (into existence)that be not (that don't exist) as though they were(as though they did).
Now this may have gotten too deep for you and I'll be glad to go over again in detail as best as possible.
But all of the above applies, no matter which way you come out, no contradiction. It all lines up. Line upon line as the scripture says.
RESPONSE TO ROUND 5
Now this may have gotten too deep for you ....
That is one way of putting it.
But all of the above applies, no matter which way you come out, no contradiction.
I get it. It doesn’t matter what my arguments are, they are wrong.
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SUMMARY OF DEBATE
The instigator of this debate, Mall, did not define the word contradiction in the description, notes, or opening round. In Round 1 Mall stated
this is whatever you think are biblical contradictions.
I took Mall at his word and offered several pairs of apparent contradictions taken from different Gospels and all concerned with the death or resurrection of Jesus.
In Round 2 Mall denied that any of my examples were contradictions, instead arguing that they are just varying eye-witness accounts of an event in each case.
I don’t think that proves my examples are not contradictions.
I then posted a request in the Notes section of the debate, asking Mall to define what he meant by contradiction.
After 24 hours, with no response to my note, it seemed reasonable to me to use a dictionary definition of contradiction, which I explained in Round 2. I think my argument there is still valid:
The Bible is a book of text. I have quoted eight groups of passages from that book. Each group contains two or more passages which obviously contradict each other, given the plain meaning of the text. Whether any given passages represent a true account of the events they describe is irrelevant. I have only to show that there are contradictions in the text. I have done that....
Ignoring my note, Mall posted a rebuttal in Round 3, which said (in part):
Do you have anything that are actual biblical conflicts?For instance, one scripture says the Father (God) will judge no man and another saying God will judge.
I responded:
Now in round 3, ignoring my note, you define the terms in your favor, in such a way that you can re-use your Round 2 argument and exclude mine.
I decided to continue, using examples of contradictions which avoided the “varying witnesses” objection. I quoted two verses from the same gospel, both of which were direct quotes from Jesus.
Part of his reply:
Oh so this is a harmonical thread. Being that "you will see Me", who's to say that can't be for always?
I replied that Jesus said it, but according to his rebuttal in Round 4, that didn’t count. His reasoning is obscure to me.
Once again, in Round 4, I offered two more direct quotes from Jesus. To me it is obvious that Jesus was talking about the same place in both quotes, but Mall wasn’t having it. To me his reasoning was even more obscure than before. Then he wrote:
But all of the above applies, no matter which way you come out, no contradiction.
This is the crux of Mall’s argument.
In general, it appears that by enlarging the context of a statement, Mall thinks that he can resolve any contradiction. Some apparent contradictions may be resolved that way, but not all of them.
My arguments are based on the actual meaning of the text. On that basis I think it is reasonable to agree that at least one pair of the Bible passages I quoted is a real contradiction. Please vote for Con.
Didn't prove any contradictions
I vote for Con because Pro has not provided any effective rebuttals to the points made by Con. Furthermore, Con highlights that Pro's entire rebuttal strategy is based on dismissing their evidence regardless of its validity. This leads me to question why Pro initiated the debate at all.
I withdraw the question that I posted on March 1. It is no longer relevant.
In your estimation, what would qualify as a genuine Bible contradiction?
I have my own ideas, and after the first round of our debate, it's obvious that we don't agree upon what constitutes a real contradiction.
We should have cleared this up before we started, but we can do it now.
I need to know this before I can decide what to offer next.