On balance, Turkey’s continued membership is beneficial to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
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- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
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To make this a three round debate, I will waive my first round and allow Pro to go first. Pro should waive their last round. That way, we both have 3 speeches.
a republic in W Asia and SE Europe, between the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, and the Aegean: the centre of the Ottoman Empire; became a republic in 1923.
The NATO Alliance consists of 30 member states from North America and Europe. Article Five of the treaty states that if an armed attack occurs against one of the member states, it should be considered an attack against all members, and other members shall assist the attacked member, with armed forces if necessary.
producing good results or helpful effects
Greece and Türkiye (1952), Germany (1955), Spain (1982), Czechia, Hungary and Poland (1999), Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia (2004), Albania and Croatia (2009), Montenegro (2017) and North Macedonia (2020).
has its second largest army and is the host of the Allied Land Command headquarters. The Incirlik and Konya Airbases have both been involved in several NATO military operations since their establishment.
- Türkiye is the EU’s 6th biggest trade partner, representing 3.3% of the EU’s total trade in goods with the world (imports and exports combined) in 2022.
- The EU is by far Türkiye’s largest merchandise import and export partner. In 2022, 26% of Türkiye’s goods imports came from the EU and 41% of the country’s goods exports went to the EU.
With seventy years under its belt, Turkey is among NATO’s older members. It boasts a strong legacy, having been a bulwark against communism during the Cold War and a frontline player in many regional crises that erupted later, including in the South Caucasus, Balkans, Iraq, and, most recently, Syria. In contrast to most other Alliance members, this incessant state of conflict around its borders has denied Turkey any peace dividend.
Turkey’s formidable military capacity and growing expeditionary capabilities, together with its expanding defense industry (particularly in drone technologies) are all critical enablers for NATO. Even as priorities change and global attention shifts to the east, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has proven that building sustainable security in the Euro-Atlantic area is unfinished business. Much to the delight of Turkish officials, this has corroborated Ankara’s continuing geopolitical relevance—something it is betting on, maybe excessively so, in making its demands of Finland and Sweden.
- When seeing NATO kicking T out, he separates T from NATO, ignores the fact they're a 71-year heavily militaristically and economically contributive, symbiotic member throughout. In other words, he separates Turkey from NATO in analysing benefits and cost-analysis. T is literally part of the collective that is NATO, that entire part loses out if Turkey is kicked out and this does matter but I'll get to why later.
- When seeing 'threats' or 'qualitative issues' suddenly Con again separates any idea that T is a part of NATO, meaning if T has qualitative issues or threats that become more severe if NATO kicks it out, every part of that and what it results in is conveniently ignored and scapegoated by Con. NATO has a loyalty and responsibility to Turkey just as Turkey has to NATO.
T is literally part of the collective that is NATO, that entire part loses out if T is kicked out and this does matter but I'll get to why later.
Really like pro's framework opening, setting the stage for an easy to weigh scale.
Defense:
Having T in NATO means T is not with Russia or other enemies. ... Apparently T doubled its trade with Russia since Russia's invasion of Ukraine (a country that was trying to join NATO).
It keeps T and Gr from fighting.
T contributes soldiers and such. ... Apparently T receives more military assistance than they give, which they then use for genocide. ... Wow, pro comes back with other member nations doing war crimes and being supported by T in this as a good thing, and I am buying it (it's evil, but a sound point). Further, T is the second largest contributor. ... And wow wow wow, con comes back with pointing out that maybe the USA should be kicked out too for failing to live up to the values of the organization.
T is allied with ISIS, and can veto new member states joining NATO.
Trade:
T being in NATO helps trade routes. ... Apparently they would likely still trade with Europe, and are trying to get into the EU.
Tradition vs Costs of Kicking T out:
Con does well pointing out the length of time is not too meaningful to the question of continued membership, but pro comes back pointing out how difficult it intuitively would be to kick them out. Pro also points out the harm of the public perception of kicking out a 71 year member state. ... Con defends with a point that for NATO to be meaningful, continued membership should not be guaranteed if you're too far opposed to NATO.
This is damned close until pro's final round.
Con made a really good point that the resolution is not about kicking Turkey out, but a question of the current value in their membership. Until this was said, I did not see the distinction, yet it's a valid one. It's one step less in the conclusions. After this is raised, pro continues to talk about what would happen if T were kicked out, which, I would do the same (it's somewhat mitigated, but it's still on target).
Pro's twisting things with the 1915 genocide, confused me quite a bit for the relevance in the debate, since con had not mentioned said genocide. I was leaning towards making this vote a tie before that, but it's just too desperate of a gambit. Because they have a history of doing bad things, we shouldn't consider the harms to security by them doing more bad things today? That's the best sense of this I can make.
I'm left to consider that their continued presence is more of a hindrance than a benefit; but the cost of kicking them out would fairly likely make it not worth revoking said membership (the points that they're already teaming up with ISIS and Russia, very much favor con).
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xgJoMKpTOpfa799-qqqrfcyVYXnuUgNU_q6-QReNgx4/edit?usp=sharing
Good debate, guys. Sorry to hear that it's your last, RM.
RfD:
https://youtu.be/rEhdOSUx6Lo
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zD054XwOlZ4IWR_lQfG6L8QFqfIRdlQCuA1Qba4T1CM/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks!
Nice job, blamonkey.
I’m really sorry, but my fever just acted up again, and it’s unlikely I‘ll be able to vote on this one. Looks like you already have three excellent votes, and I’ll make it up at the final.
Oh no! Im sorry to hear that. I hope you feel better.
If you cant cast a vote thats ok.
I’m sorry for the delay! I actually did fall unwell last week, but I will do my best to vote on this in the next 7 hours.
Thanks for the vote!
You're leaving the site? How come?
I meant to say good debate. I was just super tired last night and forgot. I promise that was not a slight against you or the way you debate.
If this is really your last debate here, I'll miss you.
I can tell as you never said 'good debate', or more than the bare minimum of manners that you didn't like how I debated this and that you don't think much of me.
That is okay.
It was an honour for your debate to be the one that truly defeated me prior to my departure here. You are truly the greatest debating mind I have ever come across, you aren't just structure and training, you're true talent and blistering-effort research. Try to debate more often, you're the one who can take the entire top 5 ranked users in a 6-person free-for-all and string up their bodies by the end of it.
Try to venture into weirder topics, not for bragging rights but to truly freeflow it. Nobody will know what that feels like except perhaps lancelot and now you. You need to experience it, the rush of creatively pushing, pulling, striking, blocking and maneuvring in an arena you're uncomfortable with and that isn't something pure research alone can carry.
Thanks for the vote!
It was really close, you could have clinched it by focusing on the Greece point for sure. You did great especially considering the time constraints you had due to life.
I haven't seen the rfd yet but thanks for voting, blamonkey is one of the single toughest people to beat on this site on geopolitical stuff. All three topics were a problem for me in this Round.
Will be voting on this on Tuesday!
I’ll work on this, might be a few days.
I will be voting on this today or tomorrow
"Let's not pretend that T's willingness to trade heartily with the EU on discounted tariffs is also due to its NATO ties."
I meant is not, not is. I even reread Round 3 before posting. This is a real shame... in Round 1 I make that stance clear though.
The Round 3 of Pro is up already, I can stall my last-round waiving to give you extra time to come up with a vote if this is necessary for a particular voter. I want all four to vote please.
Idk how the voters will interpret BoP here. Good effort, may the best debater win.
Take your time! Also, if at any point you want to redo this when you have more time outside the tourney, let me know.
good round, fantastic speed and all that but I must stall again. It's gonna take time to do the Round 2 for me.
That's an pretty good idea. Thanks! :)
blamonkey
No but you should hyperlink words or numbers inside it at the very least. You have to at least refer to the sources at times but you do that anyway.
My point is if you have 12 sources, make all of them referred to in text somehow then I can't say shit. Like hyperlink in text or number inside text and hyperlink the number.
Cool! Sorry that IRL stuff got in the way. Do you mind if my sources go in the comments? If not, that's cool.
Real life has really gotten in the way in both a sense of how tired I am and how busy I am, I will pump something out on time hopefully but it's actually a good thing you pushed it later.
We had to get it going and it benefits him to force me to do that in Round 1. It is fine, there is not much room in this for Con to abuse semantics and only 3 key definitions need to be given (membership is intuitively defined).
I advise adding some basics into the description, to avoid it all having to be explained inside the debate.