Instigator / Pro
1
1522
rating
14
debates
28.57%
won
Topic
#4289
God, as portrayed in the bible, cannot reasonably exist to the words of the bible.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with the same amount of points on both sides...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1
1500
rating
8
debates
68.75%
won
Description
Personal interpretations of the bible will not be used in this debate, it will be a debate solely around what the bible says. This means that the Bible will be interpreted from a literal standpoint and not a metaphoric one.
Round 1
God, in the bible, is portrayed as having infinite mercy. To give an example, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end" (Lamentations 3:22-23). Despite this, god sends people to hell just because they do not believe in him, as shown by the quote, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:18) and further by the quote, "The final place of eternal torment for unbelievers is the lake of fire" (Rev 20:10). The lake of fire in the last quote is referring to hell. In the former quote, when they say that those who don't believe in him are condemned, it means that those who do not believe in God are condemned to go to hell.
Suppose that someone lives in such a way that they never encounter Christianity or even have a chance to become Christian. Even if that person is immensely charitable and kind, and is a model of someone immensely kind, they will go to hell. How can that be considered just or having infinite mercy? Would a merciful or kind god do such a horrible thing?
Furthermore, God is capable of sending good nonbelievers to heaven. God, as portrayed in the Bible, can do absolutely anything, which should include sending good nonbelievers to heaven. This is shown by the quote, "God can do anything, you know — far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams!" (Ephesians 3:20-21).
Clearly, this is a massive contradiction in the bible. God cannot both have "infinite mercy" and condemn those who don't believe in him to hell at the same time if he does have infinite mercy. Thus, the only logical conclusion is that God as shown in the Bible couldn't exist as these things contradict each other.
Benny, thanks for letting me participate in this debate. All my biblical passages will be from the King James Version.
My job in this debate is NOT to prove that the God portrayed in the Bible can reasonably exist according to the words of the Bible, but rather my win will come from disproving Benny's claim. The way that I will do that will be to either refute or explain Benny's arguments.
Let's look at Benny's arguments with a little logic and Bible together.
So, how can an infinite merciful God send people who don't believe in him to hell?
I think you answered your own question by giving the determining factor. The ones who believe in him. Let's say you have a party and you invite your friends. They accidently spill some red wine on your white carpet. Are you going to throw them away and never talk to them again? Let's say some thugs that you didn't invite come to that same party and they start getting a little loud and create a ruckus? Are you going to let them stay there?
The answer is obvious for both occasions.
If you have a child, tell me, what can that child ever do to make you stop loving him or her? The answer is NOTHING.
If you have a criminal that just broke into your house, what could he do that would stop you from calling the police? What would stop you from shooting the guy if he tries to hurt your family? Again, it is NOTHING.
The outcome of your judgement on a person will be determined depending on the association of that person to you. Why would God, who created us in his image, be any different?
As for the "good person" question, God's intention is that no man should be lost.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
A good question would be, how can a good person deny the powerful way that God can try and save them? If God is all powerful and that he has every intention that no one should be lost, then how can this "good person" not be saved by God in the same way every Christian is saved? I'd say the onus is on the person who chooses to live for him or not (repentance), NOT the infinite God who can provide a way since he desires all to not perish. God does not just automatically save people. People have to come to God. God will create the way. Good people may not be so "good" like we see them. They can still resist God's love and do good things to others.
Also, the book of Ephesians is written to people already saved in the church at Ephesus. I know some parts of the epistles are referring to other people besides the church, but in this case it is clearly referring to the Christians and not to everybody as a whole.
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly* above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Round 2
So, how can an infinite merciful God send people who don't believe in him to hell?
I think you answered your own question by giving the determining factor. The ones who believe in him. Let's say you have a party and you invite your friends. They accidently spill some red wine on your white carpet. Are you going to throw them away and never talk to them again? Let's say some thugs that you didn't invite come to that same party and they start getting a little loud and create a ruckus? Are you going to let them stay there?
What this is referencing is the fact that God as portrayed in the Bible is willing to let those who have committed sins into heaven as long as they believe in him, with the "sin" being spilling red wine on the white carpet and the believers of God being the "friends". But what if that sin is the murder of 6,000,000 Jewish people like Hitler did? The Bible says, "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9). Here, the Bible shows that the sinful can go to heaven if they are faithful to god, regardless of sin. Hitler was Christian and put his faith in God. If, during the party, your friend (who happened to be a tyrannical dictator) ordered the execution of millions of people and other absolutely horrific acts; would you not boot them from the party and stop being their friend? However, the issues with this figurative scenario run deeper. Suppose that your party lasted forever. Those in it get to experience infinite joy (heaven), and those outside of it have infinite pain (hell), which better reflects what you trying to represent. Suppose as well (since you'd represent God here), that you could see who is a good person and who is a bad person (as God can do anything he can tell how moral someone is). Also, suppose that the party had infinite space and supplies (like heaven does) so you could accommodate the entire world into your party if you chose to let anyone in. Would you only allow the friends you personally know into that party? If you looked outside your window and saw an immensely kind person who committed great acts of charity and could let them in at no cost to you; would it be justified if you coldly didn't open the door for this person? Clearly, this party isn't moral or just if so. After all, who is in the party (heaven) is only based on who was friends with you (a believer in God), even if they committed evil acts. And those outside the party (hell) are only based around not being friends with (a believer in God) you, even if they committed good acts. In other words, whether or not someone is good or evil doesn't even matter, and kindness plays no role in whether you experience infinite pain or pleasure, just belief. How can that be considered just or moral? The answer is that it isn't. To reiterate a previous argument, as this clearly shows immorality, and God is supposedly an absolute basis for morality, these things contradict each other as an infinitely moral being cannot be immoral, and thus the only conclusion is that God, as portrayed in the Bible, does not exist.
If you have a child, tell me, what can that child ever do to make you stop loving him or her? The answer is NOTHING.
Of course there are things that could make me not love my child (which in this case symbolizes God loving his believers). If my child grew up to be Hitler and murdered 6,000,000 Jews, I would not love him. The answer is not "nothing". I would find it extremely concerning if you would actually love Hitler if he was your child. In much the same way, supposing God exists he should not admit Hitler into heaven just because he believes in him, unless you actually want to make the absurd argument that Hitler deserves to go to heaven.
If you have a criminal that just broke into your house, what could he do that would stop you from calling the police? What would stop you from shooting the guy if he tries to hurt your family? Again, it is NOTHING.
The nonbelievers in god aren't "criminals". Being a criminal involves doing something wrong; but why is not believing in God a bad thing? Why should ignorance (assuming God exists) be a crime? Many nonbelievers in God never had a chance to even learn about Christianity, they never even had a chance to be a believer in the biblical God. A better analogy would be if a kind soul asks you to get into your house (heaven). Your house (heaven) can accommodate infinite people, so letting them in is no problem, but as an immoral person you (God) decide not to for no other reason than them being ignorant of you beforehand. Again, how can this be considered moral?
A good question would be, how can a good person deny the powerful way that God can try and save them? If God is all powerful and that he has every intention that no one should be lost, then how can this "good person" not be saved by God in the same way every Christian is saved?
According you you, God is all powerful and has every intention that no one should be lost. If God is all powerful and wants everyone to be "saved", then surely wouldn't he make his presence more obvious. If God made my computer screen right now flash that he exists, or God sent me a direct sign saying that he exists; I would believe in him. Why doesn't he, then? In a similar vain, there are many people in the world who never got a chance to learn about Christianity in the first place. For instance, the Native Americans before Columbus. If God wanted to save those people, why didn't he tell the Native Americans about Christianity before Columbus so they didn't all go to hell? If one considers this, it becomes very obvious how a good person can not become "saved" in the way that Christians supposedly are.
God does not just automatically save people. People have to come to God. God will create the way.
You said earlier that God has every intention that nobody be "lost". Supposing this is true, why doesn't God just come to people and say he exists? Why does he let people, many of whom have never heard about Christianity fall into Hell just because of his inactivity? You say that God will create the way for people to come to him, but people like the Native Americans before Columbus came had no such way. They were destined for Hell supposing the Bible is true, regardless of being good or evil.
Also, the book of Ephesians is written to people already saved in the church at Ephesus. I know some parts of the epistles are referring to other people besides the church, but in this case it is clearly referring to the Christians and not to everybody as a whole.
The quote that I gave was: "God can do anything, you know — far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams!" (Ephesians 3:20-21). What do you mean it is referring to Christians but not everybody as a whole? If you mean it is intended for Christians to read it, that doesn't change the fact that God can do anything (including sending nonbelievers to heaven).
Forfeited
Round 3
Extend previous arguments.
Sorry about the missing round last time.
To answer a few overall questions regarding the analogies, I wasn't referring to the friends and party to believers of God and heaven. I was only trying to portray the idea that the type of relationship, or lack there of, will determine the access to your home and such. To put it on terms of type of heaven and such, would not do it justice.
Now, let's address your questions in your rebuttal:
You make a few statements about Hitler and such. I know this an extreme scenario and I understand the desire to use such a case. If someone were to reject the word of God, then it would make sense that he would cast them into hell. There is a big difference in believing in the word of God and messing up, not adding up so to speak, and then a total rejection of God's word. The ones rejecting God's word, regardless of what they claim to believe, will be the one's cast into hell. If there is a kind soul, then that kind soul will have to follow the ways of God if it wants to go to heaven. Keep in mind the intentions of man. There are very "good" things done by evil people for an evil purpose and God knows the heart. If that kind soul rejects the ways of God, I would question if the soul is so kind or if it really had evil or selfish intentions. If someone would really be kind, then they would be following the ways of God anyways and an approach of God into their life would be welcome, not repulsive.
Also, if someone were to actually believe something, they would act upon it. Suppose there was a snake under your chair and I shouted to you such. If I was the only one who saw it, depending on your belief of what I said, your reaction would show it. If you believed me, more than likely you would jump out of the chair and quickly move away. If you thought I was full of it, then your would laugh or scoff and ignore me. Belief requires action, not just a proclamation.
Of course there are things that could make me not love my child
Please don't confuse love with approval. If my child turned out to be a Hitler type, then I would be sorely disappointed and crushed, BUT I would always still hold out hope for my child to regain its senses. I would still love my child even though they are the worst person. I would NOT let them in my house. I would not let them get away with their crimes, but I would always love them and be full of sorrow for their behavior.
Keep in mind, the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. If your hated someone, that means that their actions still hold sway in your mind or heart. When you decide that a person's actions or speech will not affect you, then you decide not to love them.
The rest of your argument has to do with God proving himself to people to get them to believe.
If God made my computer screen right now flash that he exists, or God sent me a direct sign saying that he exists; I would believe in him.If God wanted to save those people, why didn't he tell the Native Americans about Christianity before Columbus. . .Supposing this is true, why doesn't God just come to people and say he exists? Why does he let people, many of whom have never heard about Christianity fall into Hell just because of his inactivity?
This is a constant question among atheists and one I have proposed myself. There are a few unknowns with these questions. For example, how do we know that God did not reveal himself to others so obviously? Do we know for sure that God did not somehow preach to the native Americans? Also, will God punish someone for being fully ignorant?
I know of examples that God has given signs to people in real need of proof. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. To give a Bible reference, starting in Luke 16:19, there was a man that died and went to "hell". He asks Abraham to go back to his brothers to warn them. He even pleads for the beggar, Lazarus to be raised from the dead to talk to them, since such an extreme circumstance would have his brothers believe. Abraham told him nope. His brothers wouldn't believe even if someone came from the dead. They had Moses and the prophets. They need to believe them (the prophets). Basically, if a man doesn't want the things of God, then NOTHING will appease them. They will explain away the sign or circumstance that God would give them.
To answer the ignorance question, God has had a plan of salvation for different times of the world. It wasn't always the Christian way. Before the flood, after the fall, there was some sort of sacrifice to be given, BEFORE the law of Moses. Then after the flood, Abraham was given a promise, again without the law. Then finally the Mosaic law was appointed on the mountain. Then the final testament, the crucifixion. I also believe there will be some sort of plan given to the Jews during the tribulation. God has given different requirements to different people in different times. For example, when Abraham destroyed the 5 kings, he paid tithes to Melchizedek. The bible never explains who this guy was and how he was a priest of God. The bible never reveals the requirements of being a priest of that time. How did he rise to the office of a priest without any law given? There was obviously some sort of law given to mankind that we don't know about. How do you know that the native Americans did not receive something similar and there were a ton of them that loved God and received salvation?
What do you mean it is referring to Christians but not everybody as a whole? If you mean it is intended for Christians to read it, that doesn't change the fact that God can do anything (including sending nonbelievers to heaven).
I'm not saying that God can't do anything. He could wrap this whole thing up with a snap of his fingers and have brainless worshippers in heaven, but that is not what he wants. He wants someone to willfully love him, not because he makes them. He wants them to choose to love him. He wants them to seek him out, a desire for him. If you have a wife or lover, you would understand what this would be. It's not that God can't save anyone, it's that people would rather do their own thing instead of follow God.
Round 4
Forfeited
Extend
Round 5
Forfeited
Well, let's wrap this thing up. Looks like Benny got cold feet on this one. Hopefully I have shown that his arguments are biased and that we can look at God through a lens of our own lives to explain a few things about the mysteries of God.
Alrighty
Yes.
It’s how I got Voting Privileges to DavidAZ.
Really?
If I challenge you to three separate debates and you accept them immediately, you could have voting privileges in the next 3 hours.
Appreciate the feedback!
Sadly I’m not able to vote, I’m trying to but my opponents keep forfeiting in debates, which is completely delaying me. I haven’t finished three debates yet.
I only have 17 hours left. Anybody have time to put their two cents in with a vote?
Yes, I will.
Can you look this over and vote? It's my second real debate and need feedback.
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:18)
This encapsulates so much; if only you paid attention to what you quoted. Everyone is condemned "by default" because of sin. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, everyone's a sinner and the wages of sin is death. Having faith in the unmerited saving grace of Christ and what He did, having the Holy Spirit is what saves from condemnation. This is why unbelievers are not saved from condemnation, they do not take the Saving Pass, the Advocate, they have not Christ. It is an indirect consequence of their unbelief and a direct consequence of their sin (though those two may not be so exclusive).
Your mom cannot reasonably exist in the words of the bible.
That's fine!
Sorry! I've been super busy lately and didn't find time to respond last round. I will work on this now.
Just a reminder that you have 7 hours (at the time of writing this) to post your response.