Instigator / Pro
2
1250
rating
394
debates
39.59%
won
Topic
#4212
On balance, Songun is better than libertarianism
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
0
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
7
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description
Burden of proof is shared
Pro wins if he proves that Songun is better than libertarianism.
Con wins if he proves that libertarianism is better than Songun.
Definitions:
"Songun" definition: Songun is a society that invests all resources into the military and into the military production and into the survival of society and into survival of its government, and it is a society where unity and order are a priority over individual freedom and where everyone is expected to have the same opinion as the government.
"Libertarianism" definition: Libertarianism advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens and advocates letting citizens have plenty of different opinions including "opinions that contradict government's opinion" and "opinions that would endanger survival of society if they are widely accepted".
"Better" definition: to outmatch in conflict where everything else is equal.
These definitions are agreed to upon accepting the debate, and no change in definitions is allowed.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Outmatch in conflict means either armed conflict either severe tensions between two societies, something like cold war.
Songun is a society based on obedience to the government, usually being governed by one leader who decides how education will be made and how society will be managed.
- Songun invests more in the military
This alone means it outmatches the society of libertarianism in military conflict. Libertarianism cannot invest as much in the military because it would harm the free market and lower life standards. In libertarianism, rich people grow in number and waste resources that could be used for the military. In libertarianism, people are more likely to protest if life standards decrease.
- Unity and order are what makes society better
Everyone in Songun society will have the same opinion, which means that people in Songun society will not be fighting each other. They will be united against the society of libertarianism. In libertarianism, there will be civil wars due to all the disagreements that happen in that society.
-Willing to make sacrifices
Songun people are more willing to live in poverty and make sacrifices and even sacrifice themselves for the government. This allows even more resources to be used for the military and increase military might while decreasing protests.
- Libertarians refusing to fight
In libertarianism, many will refuse to fight against Songun society as they have the freedom to do so, resulting in diminished number of troops for the society of libertarianism in case of war. Some will also refuse to spread libertarian ideas.
-Songun society is more willing to fight
Participating in war and serving is mandatory in Songun society, and it is taught from early age of a person. This increases the number of troops and creates loyalty.
-Easier to implement decisions in Songun society
When everyone is obedient to the government, it makes it easier for the government to implement decisions and manage resources.
Songun government is worshipped by all in Songun society.
Government of society of libertarianism is much less worshipped, much less respected, much more opposed to and sabotaged by its own people.
-Society of libertarianism naturally collapses on its own
The diversity of opinions leads to plenty of abuses, fights and disagreements. Eventually, that allows a certain group of people to prevail in society and start fighting for their own system, replacing the government of libertarianism due to its incompetence to solve problems.
-Replacing the government in society of libertarianism and installing a Songun government
Songun society will install its own government in the society of libertarianism, effectively destroying libertarianism. Since citizens in society of libertarianism cannot report each other for wrong opinions, there will be plenty of spies destroying the society of libertarianism from the inside by spreading misinformation and creating hostile groups.
Con
#2
Conflict- A situation in which people, groups or countries disagree strongly or are involved in a serious argument.
Outmatch- Be superior to (an opponent or rival).
(Oxford Languages Dictionary)
There are many different types of conflict, as conflict is a vague term with multiple examples. Pro’s version of Armed Conflict as he defines it in his first post is just one example.
Because of Songun’s dysfunctional beliefs, it cannot sustain itself for as long as a Libertarian society. North Korea is the only Songun nation that exists today while there are many Libertarian societies.
North Korea would be at a disadvantage if they were to war with a Libertarian nation because NK is too self-sufficient to the point that it would be like a Lone Wolf making another wolf its target and then invoking the wrath of the entire pack.
Libertarians are peaceful, but they prioritize diplomacy over senseless impulse. They would seek to resolve a conflict in a civil way before getting their hands dirty, whereas a Songun’s aggressive approach may backfire.
In the words of Sun Tzu, “The supreme art of warfare is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
Now let’s assume North Korea were to get into a international dispute with Switzerland over whose politics is superior. It is clearly evident that Switzerland has more freedom for its citizens and a lack of oppression, so Switzerland actually wins this.
If a second disagreement took place about who has the superior economy, Kim Jong Un would be forced to concede that Switzerland’s economy has more wealth and prosperity.
Round 2
Pro
#3
0) Reminder
Remember, the topic deals with Songun vs libertarianism, where all else is equal. This is not North Korea vs all the world, but more of a North Korea vs libertarian society that has equal resources and doesnt enjoy protection from big non-libertarian countries.
1) Songun North Korea vs libertarian Switzerland
This is not much of a comparison. Switzerland doesnt have military. In the case of any military conflict, there would be no Switzerland anymore.
Switzerland is an extremely weak country. North Korea could even bully it into accepting that North Korea is better in every aspect. Switzerland is not even a sustainable country, since it depends on others protecting it. In the case of any disagreement, Switzerland would have to concede to the North Korea out of fear. Plus, North Korea could easily destabilize Switzerland and install its own government there if it was just Switzerland vs North Korea.
1-1) The claim "Libertarians are peaceful" is misleading
The only reason why libertarians can be peaceful is because they enjoy protection from countries that are not peaceful but ready for war. In that sense, libertarianism depends on non-libertarianist countries to protect it. If it didnt enjoy such protection, it would be conquered soon. Since this debate is based on equal standards, the libertarian society does not enjoy any protection from the non-libertarian societies.
1-2) The claim "Switzerland’s economy has more wealth and prosperity" is false
In terms of military economy, Switzerland is far behind. Producing guns is more important than producing candy. Switzerland doesnt have weapon production, which greatly harms its ability to defend itself.
2) The claim "Libertarianism is failing at reproduction" is true
When you give the people freedom not to reproduce, some will use that freedom and wont reproduce. There will be less children being born, causing population shortages.
3) The claim "Because of Songun’s dysfunctional beliefs, it cannot sustain itself for as long as a Libertarian society." is false
History proves the Songun. It is true that Songun Korea is the only Songun nation on Earth. Thats because historically, Songun wasnt used except by North Korea. It didnt even exist before. North Korea invented and defined Songun politics.
4) The results of Songun
4-1) Survival and unity
They survived war and mass bombardment. They survived famine and extreme poverty for over 30 years. This proves the durability and sustainability of a North Korean Songun system. People remained loyal to their leader no matter what difficulty they faced.
They survived 30 years of sanctions.
They survived 30 years under constant threat of war from the US.
If libertarianism system was put through just one year of famine, people would rebel and overthrow the government. Maybe there would even be civil war in society of libertarianism. This shows how fragile is libertarianism compared to Songun. Songun is indestructible.
4-2) Military size and might
North Korea today commands the largest military force in the world counting 7 million soldiers, despite being a very small country. For the sake of comparison: South Korea doesnt even have long range missiles, despite all the help from USA and having started its existence with more than double the population compared to the North.
5) Conclusion
These facts prove the superiority of Songun over libertarianism in conflict, since Songun has proven its durability in most difficult conditions and has produced great military might.
Con
#4
"Songun" definition: Songun is a society that invests all resources into the military and into the military production and into the survival of society and into survival of its government, and it is a society where unity and order are a priority over individual freedom and where everyone is expected to have the same opinion as the government."Libertarianism" definition: Libertarianism advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens and advocates letting citizens have plenty of different opinions including "opinions that contradict government's opinion" and "opinions that would endanger survival of society if they are widely accepted".
The resolution doesn't limit libertarianism to only one society. Given the definitions, we are to go with a Songun society (There is only one society in the world that is Songun.) vs anything that encompasses libertarianism or falls within the scope of libertarianism. (This just so happens to be many societies.)
The reason Libertarianism dominates over Songun in armed conflict is because of its group-like approach to tactics and warfare (safety in numbers) vs Songun's Lone Wolf strategy. Switzerland can pull from strong allies and outmaneuver North Korea because of its strong bonds.
The Songun Burns Bridges.
Despite North Korea's heavy firepower and utility, it cannot take survive taking on the whole world. This is Libertarian's turf because strong alliances = Power.
In terms of military economy, Switzerland is far behind. Producing guns is more important than producing candy. Switzerland doesnt have weapon production, which greatly harms its ability to defend itself.
Switzerland isn't required to constantly worry about defending itself because its ties to other countries means they can have military resources transported into their possession if they ever need to fight. The militia is also full of citizens more than capable of putting up a fight. North Korea is isolated from everyone else, so it is in a perpetual state of fight-or-flight and this is unhealthy for the life quality of its citizens.
The United States for instance is a nation that openly adheres and endorses Libertarian policies, and it has one of the strongest militaries in the world. If we are talking about who outmatches who in armed conflict, America definitely takes this.
- "The U.S. has the strongest military in the world and unquestionably outmatches North Korea"
But armed conflict is just one area of conflict and there are many others like the level of education or quality of life.
Referring back to the Resolution, the description states,
"Better" definition: to outmatch in conflict where everything else is equal.
This is a very ambiguous part of the definition and sets an impossible burden that neither me nor Pro can meet.
As there will always be areas in comparisons where one contestant performs worse or better than the other, so everything else cannot be equal.
For instance, North Korea's life expectancy is 73 years. North Korea - Place Explorer - Data Commons
Switzerland's is 83 years.
In a conflict over life expectancy, Switzerland certainly outmatches North Korea.
So as we have it so far, here are the scores so far.
Libertarianism
Conflict Resolution- l
Economic Prosperity- l
Military Conflict- ll
Songun
Military Conflict/Economy- l
Round 3
Pro
#5
0) Reminder
My opponent says: "We are to go with anything that encompasses libertarianism". Is false.
This resolution does not deal with North Korea against the whole world. As the description says, libertarianism and Songun are to be judged on equal standards. That means we dont consider 1 billion people vs 25 million people as valid comparison of any kind. The equal standards are: same amount of population and resources. If there is to be a comparison between countries that have huge difference in population, the comparison is to be per capita.
1) Russia, North Korea and China make the strongest military alliance in the world
My opponent said "Songun burns bridges", "North Korea is alone". Are obviously false statements.
Historically, it was the libertarianism that burned bridges in it's own society. North Korea is not alone. North Korea is ally with Russia and China, forming the strongest military alliance in the world and commanding the world's largest military and largest nuclear force.
2) North Korea already fought a war against the entire libertarian world in the Korean war
In the Korean war, North Korea already fought against the entire UN, US and South Korea. North Korea quickly crushed South Korea. Even after the entire UN and US came to help South Korea, they still could not defeat North Korea and China.
3) North Korea is much stronger now than it was during the Korean war
North Korea today commands the largest military force in the world, armed with nuclear ICBMs capable of hitting any country in the world. In the Korean war, North Korean military was just 3% of the size it is today. North Korean 7 million troops today are by themselves a huge challenge for the libertarian world, since the entire NATO only has 3 million troops.
4) In the comparison per capita, North Korea wins and USA loses badly
USA in total has less than 2 million troops. North Korea has 7 million troops. This makes North Korean military 3 times larger than that of USA.
But it doesnt end there. It would be unfair to compare the total results of USA to North Korea, when USA has 14 times more population and resources. This resolution deals with equal standards: equal population and resources. It deals per capita.
In comparison per capita, North Korea has 50 times larger military than USA. This proves that even the strongest libertarian countries are no match for North Korea when we apply equal standards.
5) North Korean economy is better than that of Switzerland
Switzerland has 300 billion dollars of debt.
Military production is the most important part of the economy. It is crucial for survival of society. Switzerland has no military production.
North Korea has the largest military production per capita in the world. This means that North Korean economy is better in military production, outproducing Switzerland's economy by far.
6) Switzerland's birth rates are failing
With 1.5 birth rate per woman, Switzerland is a dying country. Its population gets older every year. Unless the birth rates increase, it is headed for mass decrease in population.
7) North Korean population grows despite sanctions
North Korean population grows faster than that of USA, Switzerland or South Korea.
Songun society based on unity and morality has great advantage compared to libertarian society. Libertarian society is based on destruction of family values, which results in population collapse.
8) Switzerland's life expectancy is a failure
My opponent says: "Switzerland has high life expectancy".
"Switzerland's high life expectancy is a sign of population collapse" is true. With less children in society, there is higher life expectancy. Society gets older and older. At some point, you end up with society of old people that cannot work or go to war. It is very bad for Switzerland.
9) Switzerland cannot fight North Korea in any way or in any scenario
Ordinary citizens being suddenly armed are no match for North Korean military that has decades of military training. Even if Switzerland was to get modern equipment from other countries, they would stand no chance against North Korea who has its own military equipment and production that is the largest in the world per capita. North Korea has largest amount of trained troops per capita in the entire world by far, and largest military production per capita in the entire world by far.
10) Conclusion:
There is no scenario in which libertarianism wins against Songun in conflict when we apply equal standards: same population and resources.
Con
#6
Earlier, you’ll recall that I pointed out that Songunism is not sustainable.
I’ll point out why.
North Korea’s Chronic Famine Problem
A bigger military = more soldiers which = more people to feed = more money.
Given North Korea’s expansive military size and their stubborn self-sufficiency, just how expensive do you think this gets for NK?
- Just how many times has North Korea went into starvation?
- “Out of a total population of approximately 22 million, somewhere between 240,000 and 3,500,000 North Koreans died from starvation or hunger-related illnesses, with the deaths peaking in 1997.[9][10]”
North Korea is collapsing from the inside-out, even without the intervention of domestic threats. Now if you take a libertarian society of equal stature, the latter obviously isn’t going to be suffering from this problem.
A smaller and weaker country like Switzerland certainly doesn’t.
North Korea’s Alliances
It is true that if an attack is launched on NK, China will jump in to defend it. But if North Korea were the instigator, China has stated that they would not interfere.
North Korea’s Military Forces
USA in total has less than 2 million troops. North Korea has 7 million troops. This makes North Korean military 3 times larger than that of USA.But it doesnt end there. It would be unfair to compare the total results of USA to North Korea, when USA has 14 times more population and resources. This resolution deals with equal standards: equal population and resources. It deals per capita.In comparison per capita, North Korea has 50 times larger military than USA. This proves that even the strongest libertarian countries are no match for North Korea when we apply equal standards.
This means absolutely nothing.
North Korea doesn’t have enough resources to sustain a military at that size anyway, which is why we have the starvation problem. The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to deter most would-be attackers, but not because of North Korea’s competency as a military force but because the lives of innocent casualties would be taken and the expenses of war would be too much.
But America has no need to resort to nuclear warfare to destroy North Korea if their hand was forced. North Korea is powerless on the battlefield, just considering how obsolete the weaponry they use is.:
- Outdated Soviet Trucks.
- Starving foot soldiers.
- 1940’s Aircraft???
A group of 900 people fighting a battle with sticks and stones gets destroyed by 300 people with guns and explosives.
The nuclear weapons are their only advantage and even that is insufficient to guarantee them a victory against America.
North Korea’s Fatal Weakness
NK is so fragile that a war that lasted more than a few weeks sets them up for defeat because the size of their military makes them immobile.
They can’t afford high-quality weaponry, food supply, or the military training required to accommodate all these soldiers. Their military is overpopulated.
Round 4
Pro
#7
0) Reminder
My opponent stills assumes unequal comparisons, despite being pointed out about it several times. We only consider comparisons that take into account the population difference. If the population difference is ignored, it is not a valid comparison.
1) My opponent's arguments are not based on reality
1-1) My opponent says: "Just how many times has North Korea went into starvation?". Doesnt make any good claim.
We dont know even if North Korea went into starvation. Wikipedia does not have access to North Korea, nor do any of of your sources. We cannot even treat them as sources, since they dont tell us how they got the information.
Starvation is irrelevant to my opponent's side of the topic, since starvation is not the form of conflict. Even if it was, it is negated by the population growth of North Korea. North Korean population was growing during supposed famine, which proves that population growth was better in North Korea during supposed famine than in Switzerland during supposed "prosperity".
"North Korea is able to sustain 7 million soldiers for decades during peace time" is correct. During war time, it would be even easier to sustain the military since military would be capturing enemy's resources and would be self-sustainable. During war time, military has survival tactics: foraging, hunting and taking resources from the enemy's territory. During peace time, "military does not hunt, so wild life increases" and "military does not capture enemy's resources".
1-2) My opponent says: "North Korea is collapsing from the inside-out". Is a false claim.
Collapse would only happen if people didnt support their leader. North Korea is a society of unity and order. Even during times of supposed starvation, people were massively supporting their leader. North Korea will never collapse, since the people will keep supporting the leader like they have for 75 years during most difficult times. People of North Korea love their country. They are not going to turn against it. They will support it even if they have to die for it. Its usually the people in the USA that hate their government.
1-3) My opponent says: "It is true that if an attack is launched on NK, China will jump in to defend it. But if North Korea were the instigator, China has stated that they would not interfere.". Is a correct claim.
This negates the previous claim of North Korea not having allies.
In the case Switzerland attacks North Korea, Switzerland would also be at war with China.
But North Korea alone would obliterate Switzerland in 30 minutes, 30 minutes being the time it takes for ICBM to reach Switzerland and nuke it.
In the case USA attacks North Korea, USA then has to fight China and Russia. So USA would be suicidal to do that.
So yes, my opponent has conceded that North Korea has allies that would defend it in case it was attacked.
However, this is irrelevant to the topic. Topic deals with equal standards. Therefore, we do not consider USA vs North Korea as a valid comparison unless the comparison is per capita.
1-4) My opponent says: "Now if you take a libertarian society of equal stature, the latter obviously isn’t going to be suffering from this problem.".
"Libertarianism has plenty more bigger problems" is true. Libertarian society suffers from many problems like not being united, having reproduction failure, severe immorality, aging population, lack of troops, people unwilling to go to war and people replacing the government. All of this destroys libertarianism.
1-5) My opponent says: "North Korea doesn’t have enough resources to sustain a military at that size anyway". Is a false claim.
North Korea has sustained 7 million troops for decades. You cannot have 7 million troops and not sustain them. Every soldier needs food throughout the year. If North Korea did not provide food to its soldiers, North Korea wouldnt have soldiers.
1-6) My opponent says: "North Korea is powerless on the battlefield, just considering how obsolete the weaponry they use is". Is a false claim.
North Korea has ICBMs capable of striking any country on Earth with nuclear strike. It takes a lot of advanced technology to create an ICBMs. Only 7 countries in the world have ICBMs. It takes even more technology to mass produce them like North Korea has.
North Korea also has more artillery per capita than any other country on Earth.
North Korea has drones capable of penetrating South Korea's air space, as proven recently.
North Korea also has 14 times more tanks per capita than the USA.
It also has same amount of air force per capita as the USA.
It also has 50 times more troops per capita than the USA. North Korean troops are armed with portable anti-tank rocket launchers, along with light artillery.
So in a comparison per capita, USA's troops would be outnumbered 50 to 1.
1-7) My opponent says: "A group of 900 people fighting a battle with sticks and stones gets destroyed by 300 people with guns and explosives.". Is a false statement.
First, we are not dealing with 3 to 1 comparison, but 50 to 1.
So it would be a group of 15000 vs 300 where the group of 15000 also has more artillery, 14 times more tanks and more rocket launchers and more ICBMs.
Second, North Korea is not fighting with sticks and stones, as you would like to believe. North Korean missile firings have demonstrated that they have the technology as good as anyone else.
North Korean military parades have shown advanced tanks, missiles, guns, rocket launchers, drones...ect. and have shown plenty of them too.
You may say: "Soldiers dont get enough food. They cant fight". Is false. Military as a whole is not harmed as long as there is enough food to keep fighting and to press buttons and pull triggers, which there is. There will be more food as they capture libertarian territories.
2) Conclusion
Nothing in my opponent's arguments says that libertarianism can win in a conflict against Songun when we apply equal standards: equal population and resources in both societies.
Everything says that Songun has far more military and far more military production per capita, and has unity that makes it overcome all difficulties easily.
Con
#8
When a military grows too large, costs are cut from other sources which will jeapardize the system as a whole.
The North Korean government continues to maintain that 225,000 to 235,000 people died during the famine. Natsios, however, estimated that a figure between 2.5 million and 3.5 million deaths is reasonably accurate.
North Korea’s obsession with military makes them increasingly vulnerable in ways that makes it easier for them to be exploited and they would be taken over, were it not for allies like Russia or China.
Switzerland’s military is functional, in that they can coordinate and plan attacks while North Korea has to tread carefully, due to budgeting and very limited military sources.
America’s military population is significantly smaller than North Korea’s, but I demonstrated in the previous rounds that America is still superior in Armed Conflict. This remains dropped. Extend.
So a libertarian society of equal size would prove to be too much for North Korea to withstand.
Pro’s rules never said anything about what type of conflict, he only elaborated that he was referring to Armed Conflict in the first round. But there’s simply too many examples of Libertarianism dominating Songunism.
Extend all previous arguments.
Round 5
Con
#10
Thank you for the creative resolution, Pro.
Extending all my arguments from before. Here are the current scores.:
Libertarianism
Conflict Resolution- l
Economic Prosperity- l
Military Conflict/Economy- lll
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
pro treated this with video game logic, wherein supply lines do not matter. Con easily countered with Songun nations not feeding their people or their armies. With the focus on Sun Tux’s bit about how best to win at war is to not even fight a traditional conflict shows the most likely tactic Libertarians would take in the opening of said conflict; basically resulting in what we’ve seen over time with North Korea startling themselves.
Pro would have done well to show the Swiss having bad policies which lead to famine, or actual sources which show North Korea never suffered such as he asserted. With sources challenged but challenged so weakly, con is able to take sources with his evidence of North Korea’s great famine in the 90’s.
This is actually a very creative resolution.
My dull brain would’ve never thought of this comparison.
I believe this is the most interesting one so far.