Instigator / Con
0
1420
rating
396
debates
43.94%
won
Topic
#4089
You can prove God the Father is a person.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
Sir.Lancelot
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
1
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
Pretty straightforward to prove from the biblical scriptures as written, that the Father is a person as in one of three persons but the Father specifically.
Also be prepared to answers questions in the debate. Don't run, don't evade, don't think it's just a come and say whatever and run.
Be prepared to defend yourself with responses and answers.
Pretty clear and direct but any questions, leave a comment.
Round 1
You're up. Bible book, chapter and verse that we read Father God or God or God the Father or The Father is a person.
Being that you opted to participate in the same subject, try to bring different points and scriptures for each separate debate session, do you follow?
“Being that you opted to participate in the same subject, try to bring different points and scriptures for each separate debate session, do you follow?”
No. :)
Preamble:
I shall now proceed to prove that God, The Father is a person using several verses from The Bible!
Definitions:
Person- A human being.
“Genesis 2:7 - Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.”
The breath of God is inseparable from God. It is his Holy Essence and it is in every man. Since a part of God is in man, then man by definition is God. Which also means that God is man.
“I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only. No one can hide where I cannot see them. Do you not know that I am everywhere in heaven and on earth?”
Well, if God is everywhere, then that would mean he is inside every person. Which means he is every person simultaneously all at once!
Can’t argue with that logic.
“So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.”
Well then, if God made mankind in his image, then it must stand to reason that God is identical to us in every way.: Spiritual, moral, intellectual, and physical!
Thus, God is a person too! Pun intended!
“1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV / 457 helpful votes Helpful Not HelpfulYet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”Isaiah 44:6 ESV / 331 helpful votes Helpful Not HelpfulThus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.”
Jesus and God are one in the same. Their distinction is metaphorical. Jesus is the version of God that is human in which he addresses himself as “son.” Therefore, I have met my burden of proof and established that God is a person.
If Con objects to any of these arguments, then he is distancing himself from God because he is directly going against the Bible.
I thank Con for this discussion! :)
Vote Pro!
Round 2
I hope you offered scriptures in the other debate sessions that it shows as written and we can read the Father is a person.
"Pretty straightforward to prove from the biblical scriptures as written, that the Father is a person"
Key terms *as written*.
Nothing provided so far, states or is written that God or the Father is a person.
You went to Genesis and assumed that because it says man is made in the image of God , it stands to reason God is a person. You don't use your reasoning, you use scripture.
The scripture says in John 4:24 God is a spirit.
Furthermore, God is invisible according to 1 Timothy 1
"17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
But a person or a human being is not invisible in nature.
So going by your reasoning, this would self refute and contradict itself.
This is why I asked for a scripture where we can read God is a person. We can read God is a spirit.
If you don't actually have the scripture, just yield.
"Well, if God is everywhere, then that would mean he is inside every person. Which means he is every person simultaneously all at once!
Can’t argue with that logic."
You have to stop using logic and use scripture.
These are bad syllogisms.
To say all persons are God would make God flesh and blood.
A spirit is not flesh and blood . That's contradiction number one .
God is eternal and immortal, a person or persons are not. That's contradiction number 2.
God made man, namely Adam, somebody that surely died.
As we read in Genesis 5 , all the days of Adam were 930.
No different when it came to Adam or to any one person that dies including the Son of man, the Son of a person, the Son of David which David is/was a person.
Now call your chapter and verse where we read God is a person.
The scripture says in John 4:24 God is a spirit.
The Bible contradicts itself repeatedly, so no surprise there.
Anyway, there’s nothing in the rules that says God can’t be both a person and a spirit. He is The Lord, he can be whoever he wants to be.
I have given you four verses proving God is a person and you dare question the accuracy of his Written Word. This is blasphemy.
Pure and simple.
"17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
(Romans 1:20) His invisible qualities can clearly be seen, so he’s not invisible really. The adjective ‘invisible’ is an adjective. You atheists keep taking things OUT of context.
Round 3
"The Bible contradicts itself repeatedly, so no surprise there.*
Is this the best you got?
The Bible is supporting my position, not yours in other words.
I have Bible that says what God is, you on the other hand do not.
Why not just concede that? No harm in that.
"Anyway, there’s nothing in the rules that says God can’t be both a person and a spirit. He is The Lord, he can be whoever he wants to be. "
This is too funny . Really, you just opened up a bunch of questions and they're mainly centered around your understanding.
This is the best you got. By your response, you indirectly saying this debate is a draw.
If that's what you want to settle with, we can talk about it.
Another thing that's funny is your backpedaling. First you mention contradiction, then you say that pretty much the Lord can be both spirit and a person effectively saying spirit and person don't contradict but are the same, one in the same.
I don't think you were prepared for this topic. I can tell by your ad hoc arguments seeing what sticks .
What is the difference between a spirit and a person?
Why not save all this trouble by just providing a scripture saying as written that the Lord is both spirit and a person?
You haven't provided one for God being a person.
All I have is what you, you , you , you are saying.
Give Bible for this.
"I have given you four verses proving God is a person and you dare question the accuracy of his Written Word. This is blasphemy. "
What "written word"?
I'm asking you where the words are written that God is a person like I provided scripture God is a spirit.
"Pure and simple."
Is it not pure and simple what I'm asking for?
Do you not get this from the start of this topic?
Let's look at this again.
"Pretty straightforward to prove from the biblical scriptures as written, that the Father is a person"
Key terms *as written*.
Find scripture that it is written that the "Father is a person ".
Just like if you were to ask me to find where something is written , if it ain't written, I just come out honest and say it's not .
Do you have scripture that says God is in persons, in every person everywhere making them God?
If the scripture actually said this, there would be so much conflict and convolution with the gospel which is about salvation.
I mean God is Holy but are all persons holy?
That's another contradiction on your side. God knows the end from the beginning. All persons do not. Another contradiction on your part.
Based on what you are trying to argue, you're making the contradictions, not the scriptures.
"(Romans 1:20) His invisible qualities can clearly be seen, so he’s not invisible really. The adjective ‘invisible’ is an adjective. You atheists keep taking things OUT of context. "
Don't be a hypocrite. Let's read the WHOLE verse which would be keeping in context.
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
It reads ""For the invisible things of him".
What invisible things? See, something can't be invisible and visible at the same time. You have to rightly divide the word of truth, so what invisible things?
Don't add to the scripture by claiming it said God is visible when we just learned in 1 Timothy 1 God is invisible. It didn't say God is invisible and is clearly seen, it read the "invisible things".
Whatever these things are, they are understood by the things that have been made. Things that are made have a beginning like the creation of the world as the verse mentions. Those things are not eternal such as God that has eternal power and is not visible. But it's understood that these things that were made and are visible, we can witness, observe or see the power there that made these things. We can clearly see the immaterial, non physical power that made these things from the creation of the world.
You have to rightly divide and unpack this because questions come up, how do you see the invisible, how is invisibility yet still visible to us ? It's invisible.
You just added to the scripture and contradicted it.
But line upon line, precept among precept, you can understand.
So to put among what Romans 1 stated, we have this passage in Hebrews 11 as well to go with it.
In verse 3:
"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible."
There's the thing about understanding again in this verse and the world. It concludes with it being setup , made from what is not visible, not made from what is visible. See how the conclusion you came to doesn't line up.
Line up scripture with scripture. The "word " is another invisible trait of God. We understand the things we see are made by what is unseen using non visible things . We can understand and see all of this. It's like a pun with the term "see" or "seen" but really there's a difference in the meaning of the term. There's a distinction between seeing physically and seeing by understanding. Just like when people say "Oh I see, oh I get it, I understand".
"By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible."
God invisible in nature unlike a person that is visible.
That's why there was someone that had the express image of God.
Back to Hebrews again, chapter 1 going to verse 3.
" Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high".
We read "word" and "power" again. A constant theme here regarding the nature of God, things of God.
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word to be established, we have another witness from the book of Colossians.
Colossians 1:3
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature".
That is the breakdown for you .
Now unless you have scripture that reads the Father is a person, case is closed of all things considered.
Forfeited
Round 4
The opposing side doesn't have any scripture to validate the topic statement.
I still want to understand the logic of selecting to participate in a debate with the same individual and repeat the same points. It can't be for anything else but to rank up a rating.
Asked this question and I get a " I don't know what you're talking about".
Your debate ranking is worthless compared to actual truth that we can benefit from. The truth is in this case, I can't read anywhere that God is a person.
The opposing side displays dramatic inconsistency as to what the appropriate stance is to take.
Is it stance number one, the Bible is inconsistent or stance number 2, spirit and person are both the same at once ?
You don't know what to say, where to run being ill prepared for this topic.
Saying God is spirit and a person at once is like saying he exists and doesn't exist. That would be a lie .
It's one or the other or else one would contradict and cancel the other out.
Just like you can't be good and bad at once, that would be a lie of what good is and what bad is.
It's not about what's impossible or possible for God, it's the truth about God . The fact is WHAT HE IS OR ISN'T.
These desperate attempts to show you're right with contradictions and negations ,shows your error that you just walk right into.
Be humble and honest, concede your error .
Is this the best you got?
For the moment.
Why not just concede that? No harm in that.
Because that would be wrong.
What is the difference between a spirit and a person?
Nothing in the rules says they HAVE to be mutually exclusive, as God is clearly both. A celestial being and of the flesh.
Why not save all this trouble by just providing a scripture saying as written that the Lord is both spirit and a person?
Why use one scripture when I can use multiple?
What "written word"?
The Bible.
Is it not pure and simple what I'm asking for?
Yes. And I answered you, sir. You just don't like the response.
Do you not get this from the start of this topic?
It's beginning to sound like you're becoming condescending. Or perhaps, I'm just being sensitive.
Do you have scripture that says God is in persons, in every person everywhere making them God?
I gave you the scripture.
I mean God is Holy but are all persons holy?
Since everything and everyone is a creation of God, yes.
What invisible things? See, something can't be invisible and visible at the same time. You have to rightly divide the word of truth, so what invisible things?
God can do or be whatever he wants. You do not have the authority to disagree with him.
Is it stance number one, the Bible is inconsistent or stance number 2, spirit and person are both the same at once ?
Stance number 2 seems more likely. The Bible cannot be inconsistent.
You have to rightly divide and unpack this because questions come up, how do you see the invisible, how is invisibility yet still visible to us ?
God works in mysterious ways.
Be humble and honest, concede your error .
The Bible does not have errors.
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>Reported Vote: Barney // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 1 point to Pro
>Reason for Decision: see voting tab
>Reason for Mod Action:
The voter points to a specific argument provided by Pro in the debate, says it's never addressed, and votes on it. Considering that Con apparently doesn't make any arguments against this, nor does he make any independent points, the vote satisfies the standards. I'll note as well that when there are three debates that are virtually identical to one another, copy-pasting the same RFD is not grounds for removal.
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