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Sir.Lancelot's avatar
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Sir.Lancelot
1587
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Topic
#4087

1973 Nicolino Locche would beat 2007 Floyd Mayweather in a boxing match

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
1

After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman
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Two days
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RationalMadman's avatar
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RationalMadman
1702
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Description

Nicolino Locche lacked punching power. He was 5’6 and a chain-smoker, as well as barrel-chested. In 1973, he was 34 years old and nearing the end of his career.

Floyd is 5’8. In 2007, Floyd Mayweather was 30 years old and his defensive style was very new. This was the year he beat Oscar De La Hoya. Current Floyd Mayweather has a 50-0 ratio, he has never lost a fight!

This match assumes they’re both competing in the 140-145 range.

Rules:
1. BOP is on Pro. Since it’s impossible to prove something completely, Pro only needs to successfully convince voters the accuracy of the resolution.
Con will be arguing that Floyd would win, but all Con needs to do to win is refute Pro’s case rather than establish the certainty of his own.

2. Pro must provide at least three sources to meet the BOP. Con doesn’t need any.

3. Hypothetical boxing match will be 12 rounds with each round being three minutes. Both fighters will be assumed to weigh inbetween 140-145 lbs.

4. Alterations and adjustments can be made before the debate but once you accept, you agree to the terms.

5. Voters are not required to know anything about boxing in order to vote. I assure you, I will cover everything in detail.

As you can see, I am already at a disadvantage so this will make things interesting.

Round 1
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Pro
#1
WeaverofFate is likely going to react to this, so I’ll write this accordingly.

Burden of Proof
To win this debate, I only have to make a strong case that convinces my audience that 1973 Nicolino Locche would beat 2007 Floyd Mayweather in a boxing match. 
Con will be arguing for Floyd’s superiority, but he doesn’t necessarily have to prove Floyd is the better boxer to do this. He just has to invalidate my arguments.


Boxing Terminology (Offense and Defense)
Offense:

  • Jab - A sudden punch.
  • Cross - A straight punch.
  • Hook - A short side power punch.
  • Uppercut - A short swinging upward power punch.
Defense:
  • Slip - The slip is an effective defensive head movement intended to get you out of the path of an oncoming straight punch from your opponent.
  • The Roll - The roll is another effective defensive movement used to avoid your opponent's hooks by bending your knees and shifting the weight from the lead side to the backside, and vice versa (rolling in vs. rolling out). 
  • Block - Stopping or deflecting an opponent's attack by placing one or both arms in the line of the attack.
Five Styles of Boxing
There are actually more than 7, but these five are the most basic and controversial/well-known in the sport.

  1. Swarmer/Pressure Fighter - This fighting style is intended to put a lot of physical and mental “pressure” on your opponent through a series of offensive movements. It would appear that a pressure fighter is recklessly coming forward to his opponent, throwing non-stop punches.
  2. Counter-Puncher - If your opponent is a pressure fighter, this fighting style is one of the best approaches to overcome him. Counterpunching works well when your opponent is in attack or offensive mode. This style involves turning your opponent’s offense into your offense.
  3. Pure Boxer - Pure boxers are those who maintain their distance from their opponent, always in a defensive mode and waiting for the perfect moment to hit. Many people think it’s a boring style but it’s a very helpful technique that allows boxers to strategize. Pure boxers often wait for their opponent to make the first move before stepping out to strike. However, they make sure that when they do, they release clean and powerful punches.
  4. Slugger - Sometimes, it takes just one or maybe a few big, powerful punches to knock your opponent down. This is the mantra of boxing sluggers. Fighters who choose this style focus their training entirely on enhancing their punching power.
  5. Boxer-Puncher - This style of fighting is the most dynamic. It combines the skills of a pure boxer and the powerful blows of a slugger. Ideally, all boxers would choose to be hybrid boxers. But this fighting style is very difficult to master.

Constructive Arguments

l. Pioneer of Defense
Before the 1980’s, most boxers were straight-up brawlers and sluggers. Throwing punches until the opponent fell flat. Defense was simply not a thing. And then you have Nicolino Locche, the outlier of boxing. This may be an exaggeration, but he invented the style of defense and perfected it. Floyd only borrowed it and slightly re-developed it over time.
Funny thing is, Nicolino Locche is one of the softest punchers in the sport of boxing, but his reflexes and ability to evade punches is so advanced that this doesn’t really matter. Floyd Mayweather is the greatest defense wizard of this generation, but Nicolino is the greatest defense wizard of all-time. Nicolino has the nickname “El Intocable” which means “The Untouchable."
Floyd started off his career in offense. In terms of punching, Floyd hits harder than Nicolino, but Floyd is known for not having knock-out power. He brings his opponents down over a period of swift jabs, crosses, and punches. Floyd eventually makes the switch to defense, but in 2007, the style was very new, so it was still underdeveloped. A work in progress.

ll. Master of Energy Conservation
Both Floyd and Nicolino win their matches through outlasting their opponents. But there are major differences between their respective styles.:
  • Floyd is constantly moving around and appears lively, adjusting and matching his opponent’s energy.
  • Floyd maintains distance and will use a series of light jabs to gain more points from striking and to avoid getting winded.
  • Nicolino, on the other hand starts off a match very relaxed. He will only move if required to.
  • Nicolino will tire his opponent out by constantly blocking, slipping, or rolling punches.
In May 2007, Floyd won the fight against Oscar De La Hoya over 12 rounds by managing to land so many punches with pin-point accuracy. Floyd usually wins by this alone by scoring more ‘points,’ rather than knock-out.
In December 1968, Nicolino would fight Takeshi Fuji. The Untouchable was expected to lose, but he was able to control the fight very easily. Over many rounds of trying to hit him and failing, Takeshi Fuji gave up after round nine.
Nicolino and Floyd have lots of stamina, but Nicolino is better at conserving it.

lll. Their Approach to Training
This is where their major differences are summed up. 
Nicolino’s lackadaisical routine vs Floyd’s active routine.

Nicolino’s routine:
  • Nicolino hated training. Whenever he ran, he would typically go by beaches and splash water through his hair to convince his trainer that he was sweaty.
  • Nicolo smoked A LOT. He even smoked in between his boxing rounds. None of this impacted his stamina, however.
Floyd’s routine:
  • Swimming, basketball. 
  • Plyometrics.
Even the boxers of the 20th century had to be in great physical shape in order to compete. The ability to go 2 rounds in the ring requires a tremendous amount of cardio and strength conditioning, no matter how relaxed you are. I compare their training just to illustrate Nicolino’s boxing superiority. Nicolino could disregard very necessary elements of training and still be proficient. Like footwork for example.

Most, if not all boxers place a heavy emphasis on footwork, but Nicolino was so exceptional that he didn't need to train for it.

lV. Command of the Style
Tying back into my last point, the very fact that Nicolino ignored essential rules of training demonstrates that his command over his style was so strong that he could do this with minimal repercussions. 
Floyd has an overly cautious approach to fighting. He refuses to fight opponents unless he knows he can take them. The original noob-sniper, if you will. While his command of boxing is very skilled, it’s hard to determine if he’s as good as experts claim simply because of this factor.
Nicolino regularly went against opponents thought to be more skilled than himself. His comfort in dangerous and compromising situations is very profound, that this confidence alone can be attributed to his strong awareness of the sport. 

V. Boxing Prowess, Compare & Contrast
This is actually separate from my last point. A command of the style refers to one’s confidence in correlation with their respective skill. Boxing prowess refers to a person’s skill and how it matches against other fighters.

Nicolino Clips:
Floyd Clips:
If you don’t want to watch the full videos, you can just watch the selected times. It’s important to remember that Floyd started out relying on offense and using mostly speed and agility instead of brute strength and power. When Floyd switches to defense and fights in 2007, his new style is still very fast and explosive, but not nearly as compelling as Nicolino’s style. 
That can be accounted for by the fact that Floyd hadn’t spent enough time adjusting and getting used to it yet. But in 1973 Nicolino Locche had a DECADE to hone his craft. The ease in which he dodges these punches at (16:26) is superhuman. 1973-03-17 | Antonio Cervantes vs. Nicolino Locche (II) - YouTube

Vl. Frame and Physique
Floyd is well-built, he has a very lean and agile physique and it’s very obvious he spends time in the gym. He’s taller than Nicolino. Nicolino is burlier and barrel-chested, he has the look of your typical brawler. Nicolino is stronger than Floyd simply because of the way he’s built. He lacks the punching power or speed of Floyd, but he has more physical strength and durability. 
Nicolino’s frame is conditioned to withstand hits with more impact. Nicolino’s jawline and neck is also more developed than Floyd’s. This is critically important because this demonstrates a clear ability to absorb more punches with minimal damage. 
Boxers are known to work out their jaw and neck muscles, so they don’t get knocked out. This is also why heavyweights don’t really suffer from brain damage as much as lighter athletes do and why knockouts are rarer, as a heavyweight.

                    https://www.thefightcity.com/niccolinolocche

RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
Con
#2
What I agree with:

Nicolino’s routine:
  • Nicolino hated training. Whenever he ran, he would typically go by beaches and splash water through his hair to convince his trainer that he was sweaty.
  • Nicolo smoked A LOT. He even smoked in between his boxing rounds. None of this impacted his stamina, however.
Floyd’s routine:
  • Swimming, basketball. 
  • Plyometrics.
I didn't actually know Nicolino was such an unhealthy and lazy guy but that's good to know. Since we are debating about the past edition of both at their respective sort of peaks, I am sure that Pro has no room to argue 'he would train hard for this and go superpowered'.

That's... yeah that's where it stops except that Nicolino indeed was the pioneer but the inventor of a style of something is rarely ever the best at it (think about it, they were against opponents that didn't know how to handle it, the entire boxing world hadn't studied how to counter a purely defensive style.)

==

My disagreements to the entire rest of it.

I will give Lancelot credit, he has made my life easy. He's hit most of the key points I want to (instead as a rebuttal against it) but one key point ignored that I wish to constructively raise is that Boxing is harder in the future than the past, by far, since its professional taking on.

Boxing has been studied inside-out (such as to refine the ideas of how to label opponents as one of 5-7 styles) and the ways to counter each style has been mastered too by most professional boxers at the A-tier of their respective weight classes. Nicolino was able to be relaxed, smoothly reactive and less timid than Floyd because back then especially since neither is vs heavyweights who are liable to smash you out cold in one hit with ease or crack your ribs with 1-2 hard hits, it allowed Nicolino to safely be lazy. The difference of the average welterweight or whatever weight they are, opponent, is immense. Floyd is generally vs opponents who'd break Nicolino into pieces. Floyd is one of those rare cases of a guy who didn't often tactically pick easy opponents to bolster his record, at least in my opinion. He was legit making hardcore welterweight proficient fighters look hapless often. Only 2 opponents have made Floyd truly realise he's vsing an equal and one of those was the opponent Lancelot showed (Oscar De La Hoya) and the other is Victor Ortiz, a third contender is Jose Luis Castillo I.

Do you know what those 3 have in common? They are extremely aggressive fighters who know how to be aggressive without forgetting defense. That is the style Floyd is weakest against. That style in Lancelot's typology is the Swarmer/Pressure Fighter.

It is nearly irrefutable that this is the style he is weakest against and he is strongest against defensive opponents.

The Floyd in '07 was actually a hybrid. As my opponent points out he wasn't a pure defensive guy back then, he had a LOT of flurrying about him and dodged like a god. My opponent implies Nicolino had this god given ability that Floyd lacks, FALSE. Floyd is the single most talented dodger of boxing's history at the welterweight class, I firmly believe this.

I will show you something:

^ This shows how excellently he dodged De La Hoya outside of those highlights where De La Hoya did land things.

Floyd knows point allocation and judge psychology like no other boxer too. Nicolino is no joke of course but what Floyd understands is how to win Rounds in the judge's eyes with literally 3 more points than his opponent got. He is also zero percent afraid to play filthy. The way he beat Victor Ortez is by far his most vile move; he touched the gloves after a slip up/foul where Ortez touched the back of his head. Then in response to this after Ortez went to hug him and say 'hey man I'm sorry' they touch gloves and of course Ortez is still thinking alright we're good and the next 2 seconds pass and Floyd knocks him out. This is never ever considered good etiquette but is technically completely within the rules as they had touched gloves. Nicolino was dirty too but in a lazy way. He was known to even bring opponents towards his corner intentionally as the fighting round ended so he didn't have to walk to sit. This is all nice and dandy except for one thing:

WHAT FLOYD IS STRONGEST AGAINST IS OTHER DEFENSIVE FIGHTERS!

The people who tried to be like Floyd/Nicolino to Floyd were easily the opponents he had the most ease enduring and fighting against. Nicolino isn't as scientific with his style as Floyd and doesn't truly rack up points as clinically to edge out rounds. Floyd would transform into a tactical swarmer as rounds neared their end just for the sake of points and have the energy to avoid any sucker punch Nicolino could offer (which would be barely any, Nicolino wasn't the hardest puncher at all).

Nicolino is lazier and could afford to be, boxing was in its baby era, Floyd won it in its prime era where the science of it was understood to the core and all coaches and athletes in it knew the fundamentals well. If they were to vs each other, I reckon it goes the full length and Floyd is the one less tired, because he's just fitter and knows how to make other defensive boxers suffer as he becomes hybrid against them, baiting out blocks intentionally to hit them elsewhere etc.
Round 2
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Pro
#3
“I didn't actually know Nicolino was such an unhealthy and lazy guy but that's good to know. Since we are debating about the past edition of both at their respective sort of peaks, I am sure that Pro has no room to argue 'he would train hard for this and go superpowered'.
Con appears to be underestimating how fit Nico is. Certain styles of boxing are easier on the body and require different training routines. It requires an insane amount of fitness to go 12 rounds to maintain consistent victories over 18 years. Nico’s style is designed for longevity. This is why fighters who use it will have a longer career in the sport of boxing and fight well into old-age without getting worse. 

His undisciplined lifestyle never affected him at all during his fighting career.

“That's... yeah that's where it stops except that Nicolino indeed was the pioneer but the inventor of a style of something is rarely ever the best at it (think about it, they were against opponents that didn't know how to handle it, the entire boxing world hadn't studied how to counter a purely defensive style.)”

The Appeal of The Blood Sport vs The Obscurity of Defense
  • Defense wasn’t a thing during this time because the boxing industry believed raw power and strength were the key.
  • Defense existed but the number of fighters who used it were not popular. Nor was it honed to Nico's ability.
  • Nicolino is considered to be above Floyd Mayweather in defense.

“My disagreements to the entire rest of it.

I will give Lancelot credit, he has made my life easy. He's hit most of the key points I want to (instead as a rebuttal against it) but one key point ignored that I wish to constructively raise is that Boxing is harder in the future than the past, by far, since its professional taking on.”

Modern boxing isn't harder than Old-School boxing. The only changes are nutrition, advanced tech, and safety regulations. Which has made the modern industry SAFER, not harder.

Old-school boxers fight a lot more often in order to make a living. A pattern of fights in a single year whereas current boxers can get away with only taking one fight a year. The greatest boxers in history came from the 1930’s to the 1980’s.

Boxing has been studied inside-out (such as to refine the ideas of how to label opponents as one of 5-7 styles) and the ways to counter each style has been mastered too by most professional boxers at the A-tier of their respective weight classes. Nicolino was able to be relaxed, smoothly reactive and less timid than Floyd because back then especially since neither is vs heavyweights who are liable to smash you out cold in one hit with ease or crack your ribs with 1-2 hard hits, it allowed Nicolino to safely be lazy. The difference of the average welterweight or whatever weight they are, opponent, is immense. Floyd is generally vs opponents who'd break Nicolino into pieces. Floyd is one of those rare cases of a guy who didn't often tactically pick easy opponents to bolster his record, at least in my opinion. He was legit making hardcore welterweight proficient fighters look hapless often. Only 2 opponents have made Floyd truly realise he's vsing an equal and one of those was the opponent Lancelot showed (Oscar De La Hoya) and the other is Victor Ortiz, a third contender is Jose Luis Castillo I.”
Weight classes exist to avoid size gaps. Nico had 136 professional fights and only lost 4. Floyd Mayweather fought 50 professional fights with zero losses. 

Also, Floyd has a reputation as a cherry-picker. He avoids opponents he knows can beat him like Antonio Margarito, Paul Williams, and Kostya Tszyu. He ducks fighters until they age to the point that their body has declined and only then, does he fight them and win. It’s a pattern he uses. 

“Do you know what those 3 have in common? They are extremely aggressive fighters who know how to be aggressive without forgetting defense. That is the style Floyd is weakest against. That style in Lancelot's typology is the Swarmer/Pressure Fighter.”

It’s not the style that makes it difficult on Floyd, it 100% has everything to do with the fighters’ mastery of the style.

“It is nearly irrefutable that this is the style he is weakest against and he is strongest against defensive opponents.

The Floyd in '07 was actually a hybrid. As my opponent points out he wasn't a pure defensive guy back then, he had a LOT of flurrying about him and dodged like a god. My opponent implies Nicolino had this god given ability that Floyd lacks, FALSE. Floyd is the single most talented dodger of boxing's history at the welterweight class, I firmly believe this.”

  • The hybrid style is the hardest.
  • 2007 is the weakest version of Floyd Mayweather because he wasn’t trying to master the hybrid style. He was within the transition stage of his default offensive to switching to defense. 
  • Nicolino didn’t have a God-given ability but he had 15 years of fighting to hone and fully develop this skill. Floyd was in the infancy stage of defense.
The reasons why Floyd switched to defense in the first place.:

Since his youth, Floyd has had a calcium deficiency. This went overlooked in the beginning of his boxing career where he relied on punching speed and accuracy, but it took a toll on his hands. The damage his knuckles took forced him to rely on defense.

It is this year where he is stuck within the awkward phase of switching from offense to defense and why he resorted to a hybridized fighting form. Floyd in 2007 is not yet the Floyd Mayweather we know him as. 

“Floyd knows point allocation and judge psychology like no other boxer too. Nicolino is no joke of course but what Floyd understands is how to win Rounds in the judge's eyes with literally 3 more points than his opponent got. He is also zero percent afraid to play filthy. The way he beat Victor Ortez is by far his most vile move; he touched the gloves after a slip up/foul where Ortez touched the back of his head. Then in response to this after Ortez went to hug him and say 'hey man I'm sorry' they touch gloves and of course Ortez is still thinking alright we're good and the next 2 seconds pass and Floyd knocks him out. This is never ever considered good etiquette but is technically completely within the rules as they had touched gloves. Nicolino was dirty too but in a lazy way. He was known to even bring opponents towards his corner intentionally as the fighting round ended so he didn't have to walk to sit. This is all nice and dandy except for one thing:”

One of Nicolino’s strongest traits is his perspicacity. Floyd will NEVER catch him off-guard.

“The people who tried to be like Floyd/Nicolino to Floyd were easily the opponents he had the most ease enduring and fighting against. Nicolino isn't as scientific with his style as Floyd and doesn't truly rack up points as clinically to edge out rounds. Floyd would transform into a tactical swarmer as rounds neared their end just for the sake of points and have the energy to avoid any sucker punch Nicolino could offer (which would be barely any, Nicolino wasn't the hardest puncher at all).”

As I pointed out earlier, Floyd was known for cherry-picking opponents he could beat. His opponents who used defense were not as adept at it as Nicolino. Nicolino is not considered a hard puncher because he only has 14 wins by knockout of all the fights he had. 
But as far as science goes, Nicolino takes the cake.:
“Ray Arcel, another well-known trainer who was involved in the fight game from the 1910’s to the 1980’s, who saw everyone from Benny Leonard to Larry Holmes, honored Locche by proclaiming him the best defender he had ever seen.
Historian Mike Casey said of the Argentinian in his fantastic article “Wonderland: The Genius of Nicolino Locche” that, “Locche could blind an opponent with science in every way imaginable. His box of tricks was bottomless. He would bend forward from the waist, sometimes locking his gloves behind his back, stick his chin up in the air and cheekily invite uppercuts and slashing punches of despair that never struck him. The meaty, protruding head would gently tilt one way and then the other as the incoming missiles passed by and worked up a cool breeze.”

“Nicolino is lazier and could afford to be, boxing was in its baby era, Floyd won it in its prime era where the science of it was understood to the core and all coaches and athletes in it knew the fundamentals well. If they were to vs each other, I reckon it goes the full length and Floyd is the one less tired, because he's just fitter and knows how to make other defensive boxers suffer as he becomes hybrid against them, baiting out blocks intentionally to hit them elsewhere etc.”
I find this statement funny. I extend my original response about how the greatest boxers were from the 1930’s and 1980’s.
While defense was rarely used, this doesn’t mean that there wasn’t technique or skill. The boxers of the 20th century are considered by boxing analysts to be better than boxers of the 21st century. 
Also, Nicolino isn’t going to tire out. In 1971, he went 15 rounds against Antonio Cervantes. Given Nicolino’s ability to evade punches, Floyd will tire out long before Nico does. There is a huge reload time for every strike that you miss, and this will prove to be Floyds’ Achilles heel.


RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
Con
#4
Forfeited
Round 3
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Pro
#5
Okay, so just to reiterate. 

Overview
  • Maintained my position that Nico is the Pioneer of Defense by demonstrating he is one of the greatest defensive fighters. Better than Floyd.
  • My argument about Nicolino being better at energy conservation than Floyd remains uncontested. It will remain. Extend.
  • Proven that Nicolino is exceptional by illustrating the training differences and how Nico could afford to be lazier.
  • Gave evidence that Floyd picks and chooses opponents he can beat, while showing Nico’s command over his style was stronger than Floyd’s, and that Nico’s boxing prowess is superior.
  • Con argues that modern boxing is harder than old-school boxing, but I refute this by demonstrating the greatest boxers are from the 1930’s-1980’s.
  • Con mentions Floyd does poorly against aggressive boxers but is at his best when against defensive fighters. I point out that it has to do with the boxers’ mastery of the style rather than the style itself. 
  • I show that 2007 Floyd is the weakest because of his calcium deficiency and the damage his hands took from using offense for so long that he is slowly making the switch to all-defense. 
“He was a genius at conserving energy and his box of tricks was limitless. He would have been a very hard nights work for any 140lbs fighter, both past and present.”
“He may have had the look of a throwback brawler, but his output and defensive genius in the ring was on a parallel with the likes of Willie Pep and Muhammad Ali. Those who stereotyped his looks would always have a rude awakening as he stood inches from them, pulling them apart, piece by piece, both mentally and physically. On so many levels, he really was, Untouchable.”

As mentioned in the previous round, Floyd will be unable to knockout Nicolino or tire him out. 
  1. Nicolino’s defense is so advanced that Floyd will miss every-time.
  2. Nicolino never tired out once and demonstrated the ability to go 15 rounds in 1971, two years from the version of Nicolino I’m describing.
  3. Nicolino’s size advantage gives him more durability than Floyd, so even if Floyd did manage to land a punch with his KO power, it wouldn’t end the fight.
Floyd is taller than Nicolino, but Nicolino’s stockier build lends him the points for durability and strength. What’s also worth noting is Floyd is going to try to refrain from using his full striking power because of his condition, as he had every opportunity to use his offense against Oscar De La Hoya, but he refrained from doing so.

Nicolino’s Defense is superior to Floyd’s.
  • Nico can dodge punches and evade body-shots entirely.
  • Floyd can dodge strikes too, but his specific defense is designed only to minimize the impact rather than make the opponent miss.
While Nico can slip and roll punches, he can get away with suffering no damage or bruises at all with his knack of avoiding his opponents attempting to make contact. With Floyd’s inferior defense, attacks will land most of the time, but his reflexes will decrease the damage they do. 

More often than not, Floyd is eating a lot of shots. 

Nico’s Timing and Precision
Nico has a metaphorical precog ability. His ability to read opponents is so advanced that he predicts the attacks they will make just before they do it. 

Floyd, on the other hand is able to adjust and adapt to match his opponents’ energy, but he gets taken off-guard a lot. He can’t read his opponents on the level that Nico can, so this gives a point to Mr. Locche. 

Floyd’s Punching Ability vs Nico’s
I mentioned in the first round that Nico is one of the softest punchers in boxing history, but this doesn’t mean he’s a slouch in this department. 
Floyd isn’t really known for his knockout power, but it is certainly more impressive than Nico’s. However, Floyd’s calcium deficiency and his career had damaged his knuckles to the point that he uses offense as little as possible. 

Nico’s body didn’t have this problem. Having a record of using 14 knockouts in his overall career isn’t that big of a flex, but Nico could still do damage if he chose to. 

Nico’s record is more impressive
  • He finished off the year of 1973 with 129 total fights and only four losses. 
  • After 1973, he would only fight 7 more times and win all of them.
  • Nico was used to taking 3-5 fights a year.
  • Floyd would only fight 1 time a year. Sometimes, 2.
Floyd was choosing opponents that were washed up or past their prime and defeating them. Nico was out of shape and considered too old, but consistently beat opponents in peak shape that were in their prime.

Conclusion
Nico is the better fighter than Floyd and I have proven this with facts and sheer logic. Floyd Mayweather gets a lot of credit, and he may be a good boxer, but he is certainly nowhere near as skilled as Nico for that matter. 

                    https://www.thefightcity.com

RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
Con
#6
I mean I am sorry for the forfeit, not proud of it especially as I really feel strongly that I can and even now can win this topic.

Basically this topic comes down to true disagreements, as in Pro and Con disagree on almost every single fact rather than on how those facts play into the topic.

What I am going to is simply hit home that my facts are correct and Pro's are false.

The idea that boxing of the 2007 era was inferior or even equal to boxing of the 1973 era and who even pioneered defensive boxing.

So, an extremely crucial thing here is whether Floyd was 49-0 (let's ignore the 50 vs Conor Mcgregor) against superior boxers to the ones that enabled Nicolino Locche to have a 117-4 record.

Let's start with the self-evident blatant fact that back in Nicolino's time he was not only one of the first defensive boxers ever but that boxing itself was in its baby phase in terms of professional 1v1 scored, judged things as we know it. Before that all that was refined was knocking out opponents, due to lack of sophisticated cameras and the fact that how to score certain moves was still being refined, you already had to become knockout-oriented until Nicolino's era. 

I also want to say I was ignorant to agree that Nicolino pioneered the style. Willie Pep did. Willie Pep was a 1940s boxer that pioneered abusing opponents' urge to win and turning it against them, tiring them out. Willie Pep could afford this as not only was he around at a time when boxing was in its baby era (even more so than Nicolino) but he stuck almost entirely (not sure if he ever shifted) to featherweight boxing. Featherweights are skinny guys who can't really knock you out or break your bones in one or two hits, at welterweight they at least can harm you with 2 solid power punches and knockout really do occur not just by tiring and striking but speedy counterpunching.

That is what I agree with my opponent about; at the welterweight level, Nicolino pioneered it. Nicolino also had different weights during his career and of course was better at his style while against lighter weight opponents.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. (the defensive boxer) was not purely defensive and he could never have afforded to be. What he did was more similar to Mike Tyson's heavyweight and brutal peekaboo style. The peekaboo style Tyson mastered was being defensive while being brutally offensive all at once. The idea being that the constant threat of you moving into the opponent's body-range baits out hits from them. This became the new defensive style a lot of boxers took on but Tyson did it to a level few could mimic because he hit hard and fast despite being defensive. Obviously this is due to his heavyweight arms allowing that. Mayweather wasn't a one-hit wonder too often other than some convenient counterpunches knocking opponents out. What he was was a weatherer and the key point I need to prove is that he weathered down opponents and knocked them out to the point that out of his 50 wins, 27 were by knockout.

I am not here telling you Mayweather would necessarily knockout Locche, instead I reckon they go to the end and tired each other out. I am instead going to prove that Mayweather is fitter and better and has regularly been against opponents Locche would have struggled against.

I want to once and for all clear up three major misconceptions of Pro that are all linked to each other:

  1. Boxing is harder (withing the same weight level to be good at defensively in 1970s to 1980s than 2000s
  2. Nicolino had harder opponents than Mayweather, or even equal
  3. Mayweather's style is too cautious vs Nicolino's who is the perfect dodger and baiter
The link here is all in the average opponent.

First of all the average human being is taller and stronger now (especially male human being) than they were before. Yes, even just over decades, the knowledge of diets of average humans is superior to ever before. The problem isn't just that it's at the peak level, what coaches advise and such. There's a reason Nicolino could get away with being a lazy smoker, that reason is that his opponents generally had poor diets and training vs what boxers do now.

Does Pro really think all Floyd does is swimming and plyometrics? Then clearly he was not speaking in hyperbole. Floyd trains hardcore in ways they hadn't even developed the techniques for back in Locche's era.

To begin with, Locche himself was 1.68m only which is the extreme low end of a 5'5" individual. That height now is extremely problematic because for the same weight division yes you're slightly bulkier therefore but your reach and ability to 'in and out' are reduced. Back in his era 5'5" was very average for a male fighter (meaning actually average men were more like 5'3 or 5'4 believe it or not). That's how severely nutrition and lifestyle changes have increased male heights over time.

Floyd is not known to be a tall fighter of this era or his weight class and he is 5'8" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Mayweather_Jr. he is specifically 5cm above Locche and has more reach no doubt. He is also only 5cm taller. The reason 'only' is important is that his ducking technique where he uses Mike tyson's peekaboo style is still going to be effective. He will down-and-up Locche in ways Locche can't handle.

Locche was a spacing master, what he did was abuse how little people understood about swarming back then. Floyd is a hybrid, when he is against defensive opponents he gets up in their face and combines tactical swarming with well-positioned shoulder, elbow and head movement such that they keep wasting energy barely landing on him.

There is a reason Mayweather has the nickname pretty-boy and it's because he's one of the only boxers at the welterweight level (or above but especially there which is the weight he was at for most of his career), to end fights still looking unscathed or 'pretty' with sweat glistening him.

Floyd Mayweather was able to avoid injuries to his face in the ring
Over the course of Floyd Mayweather's amateur boxing career, he earned an excellent 84-6 record and showed great potential for becoming a successful pro boxer, per Biography. His ability to defend against his opposition was outstanding from the start. Unlike other boxers, who would leave the ring having to deal with bruised, battered, and swollen faces, Mayweather rarely received facial injuries during fights, due to his elevated defensive skills. As a result of his limited facial scars compared to his peers, Mayweather was soon called "Pretty Boy" by the boxing world.

"I got that name, not because of my looks, but because when my fights finished, I never came out cut or bruised. My amateur teammates gave me the name," Mayweather said to The Sweet Science in 2005. Mayweather's "Pretty Boy" status was especially apparent during his 2005 fight against Arturo Gatti. As reported by The Sweet Science, Gatti had to end the fight after only six rounds due to a tough beating, while Mayweather left the ring unscathed.
^ main source

supporting:

The reason Locche never got such a nickname is that he wasn't quite as flawless at said thing and furthermore it was less amazing back then to be that untouchable. In Locche's era, others who were less defensive still ended up unscathed as there was a huge noticeable gap between the top dogs and lower ranked boxers. In Floyd's era what I am trying to explain is a concept of 'powercreep'.

Over time, the least qualified coaches of the most mediocre to low ranking boxers have access to not only the styles of the likes of Locche and studying how to counter them but to dietary information, better equipment, better shoes, machine-based reaction training and all sorts.

Do you actually not see where this is going? The reason the oh-so-timid Floyd as my opponent accuses him of being actually ended 27 of his fights in knockout is that to be defensive alone is not enough anymore, people know how to exploit it. They will rack up points against you and win tactically without needing to knock you out. This forces you to need to become more aggressive and offensive yourself if you wish to counteract them and win rounds. Floyd knows exactly how to do this, he knows it to a T and just as much as he clinches points, he clinches dodges and makes opponents waste energy again and again in ways Locche didn't quite know how to do.

Locche barely ever had the close-up scenarios that Floyd had every fight. Floyd was and is known to be a freak of nature in that sense. You are right in his face, swinging at him relentlessly (he was less effective against the swarmer as I said) but still somehow he's making you come out even in the scores at most. He knows how to handle high-pressure fighting and make you miss such that you only land just as much as he lands. He was an absolutely tactical beast in that sense.

The fighters like Locche who tried to take it slow with Floyd are not well known because they were the stepping stone fighters he walked all over. He knew how to exploit weaknesses in their defense while having pristine defense himself all fight. The key is also fitness, Floyd understood and respected other defensive fighters and knew his job was to tire them out. Locche and him have a very similar approach in that sense but Floyd is just fitter, with better reach.

Locche never ever had to face a swarmer of De La Hoye's calibre. I wonder what Locche would have done vs Cortiz (sorry for spelling it Cortez) when he headbutt (not hit back of head) Floyd and did many dirty moves.

Floyd knows how to play dirty to win when needed, he knows how to edge out rounds without mercy by landing those 2 hits extra just as the bell rings and he would do it to Locche without hesitation. He would win the rounds, be less tired and all of it.

^ this is floyd really in his element vs a fighter very similar to Locche.

^ again, defensive/slow fighter.
Round 4
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Pro
#7
Overall Review
  • In 1973, Nico had 129 overall fights and ONLY 4 losses. Current Floyd has 50 total fights and 0 losses.
  • 2007 Floyd is the weakest version of Floyd because of his calcium deficiency and hand injuries remains uncontested. Extend.
  • Nicolino is the pioneer of defense in boxing. Con counters that an inventor is rarely the master and it’s easier to be defensive because boxing was in its infancy stage. I maintain the point by arguing boxing analysts consider Nicolino better than Floyd at defense and defense was obscure because audiences prefer brutality to finesse. 
  • Nicolino being better at conserving energy remains uncontested by Con, so I extend.
  • Con correctly points out Nicolino’s habits are unhealthy compared to Floyd’s. I point out that Nico’s skill/style make him exceptional enough to get away with this and his habits have never affected him once during his career.
  • I argue Nico’s boxing prowess is superior to Floyd. Con says Floyd fights challenging opponents, but I prove that Floyd cherry-picks fights that he can win and waits until the opponent is washed-up before challenging them.
  • I mention Nico is stronger and durable because of his build. Con points out Floyd’s height and reach advantage. 

Conclusion
Voters can weigh each argument and determine which side carries more impact. The burden of responsibility falls to me to convince voters the resolution's truth and meet the minimal requirement of sources. 

Con has several ways to win. He can shed enough doubt so that my case falls apart, or he can build his own case arguing in favor of Floyd, so that his own contentions outweigh mine. 

Rebuttals:
“So, an extremely crucial thing here is whether Floyd was 49-0 (let's ignore the 50 vs Conor Mcgregor) against superior boxers to the ones that enabled Nicolino Locche to have a 117-4 record.

Let's start with the self-evident blatant fact that back in Nicolino's time he was not only one of the first defensive boxers ever but that boxing itself was in its baby phase in terms of professional 1v1 scored, judged things as we know it. Before that all that was refined was knocking out opponents, due to lack of sophisticated cameras and the fact that how to score certain moves was still being refined, you already had to become knockout-oriented until Nicolino's era.”

That’s incorrect. 

The judging remains consistent for the most part and has not changed significantly over time. Scoring stays the same. The Sweet Science was already well understood at this point. I quote.:

  • In the early twentieth century, it became the practice for the referee or judge to score bouts by the number of rounds won by each boxer. To improve the reliability of scoring, two ringside judges were added besides the referee, and the winner was decided by majority decision.
 
“I also want to say I was ignorant to agree that Nicolino pioneered the style. Willie Pep did. Willie Pep was a 1940s boxer that pioneered abusing opponents' urge to win and turning it against them, tiring them out. Willie Pep could afford this as not only was he around at a time when boxing was in its baby era (even more so than Nicolino) but he stuck almost entirely (not sure if he ever shifted) to featherweight boxing. Featherweights are skinny guys who can't really knock you out or break your bones in one or two hits, at welterweight they at least can harm you with 2 solid power punches and knockout really do occur not just by tiring and striking but speedy counterpunching.

That is what I agree with my opponent about; at the welterweight level, Nicolino pioneered it. Nicolino also had different weights during his career and of course was better at his style while against lighter weight opponents.”

Conceding and back-pedaling suggests Con was unaware of boxing history and only did his homework at the time of the debate.
Both Willie Pep and Nicolino were pioneers of defense, but it was Nico who was better at it and who gave it more popularity. 

Nico’s style was optimal against ALL his opponents. With the exception of the 4 he lost to.

“Floyd Mayweather Jr. (the defensive boxer) was not purely defensive and he could never have afforded to be. What he did was more similar to Mike Tyson's heavyweight and brutal peekaboo style. The peekaboo style Tyson mastered was being defensive while being brutally offensive all at once. The idea being that the constant threat of you moving into the opponent's body-range baits out hits from them. This became the new defensive style a lot of boxers took on but Tyson did it to a level few could mimic because he hit hard and fast despite being defensive. Obviously this is due to his heavyweight arms allowing that. Mayweather wasn't a one-hit wonder too often other than some convenient counterpunches knocking opponents out. What he was was a weatherer and the key point I need to prove is that he weathered down opponents and knocked them out to the point that out of his 50 wins, 27 were by knockout.”

Tyson is irrelevant here.
The thing about Tyson is his style is specifically designed so that only he can use it. It can’t be emulated simply because boxers are not built the way Tyson was. 
2007 Floyd Mayweather would avoid striking as much as possible because of the extent of his hand injury. 

“I am not here telling you Mayweather would necessarily knockout Locche, instead I reckon they go to the end and tired each other out. I am instead going to prove that Mayweather is fitter and better and has regularly been against opponents Locche would have struggled against.”

Extend my point about Nico being better at conserving energy and my point of 1971 Nico going 15 rounds without breaking a sweat.

“First of all the average human being is taller and stronger now (especially male human being) than they were before. Yes, even just over decades, the knowledge of diets of average humans is superior to ever before. The problem isn't just that it's at the peak level, what coaches advise and such. There's a reason Nicolino could get away with being a lazy smoker, that reason is that his opponents generally had poor diets and training vs what boxers do now.

Does Pro really think all Floyd does is swimming and plyometrics? Then clearly he was not speaking in hyperbole. Floyd trains hardcore in ways they hadn't even developed the techniques for back in Locche's era.”

False.
I point out in round 2 that the only differences between old-school boxing and modern boxing are knowledge in nutrition, advanced training tech, and safety regulations. 

The basics of nutrition for athletes were already understood. Boxers were getting their daily caloric intake, so my opponent’s comment about dieting is incorrect. 

Old-school boxers were all about steak, chicken, lobster, spaghetti, stews, BLT’s, eggs, soup broth, tea, malted milk, and fruit pies. old school boxing diets - BoxRec

To begin with, Locche himself was 1.68m only which is the extreme low end of a 5'5" individual. That height now is extremely problematic because for the same weight division yes you're slightly bulkier therefore but your reach and ability to 'in and out' are reduced. Back in his era 5'5" was very average for a male fighter (meaning actually average men were more like 5'3 or 5'4 believe it or not). That's how severely nutrition and lifestyle changes have increased male heights over time.

Floyd is not known to be a tall fighter of this era or his weight class and he is 5'8" He is specifically 5cm above Locche and has more reach no doubt. He is also only 5cm taller. The reason 'only' is important is that his ducking technique where he uses Mike tyson's peekaboo style is still going to be effective. He will down-and-up Locche in ways Locche can't handle.

Con contradicts himself.
Tyson’s defense is crafted for short fighters to negate the advantages of very tall fighters. 
It will be impossible for Floyd to use if his opponent is shorter than him.

The 3 inches of the size gap isn’t significant enough for it to be an advantage for Floyd. Nico has won against opponents taller than Floyd and regularly fought against boxers within the 5’6 to 5’9 height range.

The reason Locche never got such a nickname is that he wasn't quite as flawless at said thing and furthermore it was less amazing back then to be that untouchable. In Locche's era, others who were less defensive still ended up unscathed as there was a huge noticeable gap between the top dogs and lower ranked boxers. In Floyd's era what I am trying to explain is a concept of 'powercreep'.

Floyd has the name ‘pretty-boy’ because he is good-looking. Nico had a receding hairline, a neolithic era facial structure, and was barrel-chested. No surprise there. 

Nico earned the name “The Untouchable” because of his profound defense. 

Do you actually not see where this is going? The reason the oh-so-timid Floyd as my opponent accuses him of being actually ended 27 of his fights in knockout is that to be defensive alone is not enough anymore, people know how to exploit it. They will rack up points against you and win tactically without needing to knock you out. This forces you to need to become more aggressive and offensive yourself if you wish to counteract them and win rounds. Floyd knows exactly how to do this, he knows it to a T and just as much as he clinches points, he clinches dodges and makes opponents waste energy again and again in ways Locche didn't quite know how to do.

Nico dodges and evades all of the strikes, so Floyd won’t score points. This forces Floyd to assume the offensive and tire out in the later rounds.

^ this is floyd really in his element vs a fighter very similar to Locche.

^ again, defensive/slow fighter.

This version of Floyd is 2001-2005, before his hand injuries. The 2007 Floyd is a different fighter and uses offense as little as possible.
The defensive fighters in the video are not adept at defense like Nico.
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
Con
#8
Pro has several baseless claims and these lead Pro to believe he is irrefutably right.

The first is that Nicolino is a masterful dodger while Floyd is just cautious. This is obviously untrue and the one who was in an era of boxing that was more ruthless and aggressive was Floyd. The modern boxing style is much more cutthroat, not allowing one to simply be cautious, people adapt to it by swarming and/or baiting. I showed several video-proofs visually for you to see irrefutably that Floyd is not simply a cautious, timid fighter as he's reputed to be but is in fact a genius of defense, dodging by head-movements, body up-down movements mimicking Tyson's peekaboo style and all. Floyd is an extremely complete welterweight fighter who simply leans more to defense because that's where he excels. He won 27 out of of his 50 wins (with 0 losses) by knockout, he is far from just cautious.

The second idea is that boxing in older times was harder while I assert the opposite. To put it very simply, records as long and successful as Nicolino don't happen anymore because even with tactical padding, you are eventually going to be against opponents that can truly damage your organs, including eyes and brain, with their continual damage. It's not funny, it's not close to an 'okay cost'. In Nicolino's era of boxing, things were easier, men punched weaker other than in the heavyweight part where instead of getting stronger over time they mainly got faster and wittier. Welterweight and middleweight got harsher on top of faster, the punches pack more power not by harder swings but more tactical angling and studying science including diet for good body and angular motions refined over time with excellent equipment.

The third idea is that somehow Nicolino being a lazier guy in training proves his dominance. Since Pro cannot argue the older version of Nicolino suddenly trains hard and with modern equipment and techniques, I am so perplexed what that point was. Floyd does train harder and better than Nicolino did, he has superior endurance, is swifter on his feet, has trained more with reflex refinement and all sorts of advantages like better diet, better flexibility and suppleness to his muscular form and such. He trains better than Nicolino in every single department, so what exactly is Pro's point? I agree with Pro... Since Pro brought up a point that favours Con.

Then we have ideas from me:

1) Floyd is actually strongest against other defensive fighters, he handles them excellently by very tactically racking up points in the eyes of judges. Floyd's tactics and strategy aren't just about avoiding hits, they are about only hitting to land hits. He conserves energy just as Nicolino did but baits out energy-wastage in opponents better than Nicolino did. He knows how to be within hitting range of opponents, even forced against the ropes and make opponents waste hit after hit after hit by such supreme dodging technique and predictive capacity. The slower and more predictable the opponent, the better he is. Floyd doesn't get baited, he doesn't get dodged much at all because he understands how other dodgers think excellently well and aims where the guy will dodge or fail to protect very often. there is a reason he's 50-0 and it isn't luck nor is it just by 'padding' vs easy opponents whatsoever.

2) Floyd has been against others extremely proficient welterweights and won. That is self-explanatory, his record was not at all achieved by just padding it, this is what his haters irrationally say. Instead, Nicolino's massive winrate and amount had a lot of padding but in his defense (see what I did there, lol) he didn't have many options for fighters that understood and could defeat a purely defensive style. Back then the Willie-Pep inspired pure defense style wasn't properly understood. Fighters prepared to be vs offensive opponents, not defensive ones that much.

3) Floyd has been vs opponents that would defeat Nicolino. This is a hybrid conclusion if you put together all my points in totality. These opponents definitely include the ones I specifically mentioned Floyd was weakest against; Oscar De La Hoya, Victor Ortiz and Jose Luis Castillo I.

These and others Floyd has vsd knew how to both pressure a defensive opponent while not just being slow, defensive or predictable themselves whatsoever. It required a level of combined fitness and boxing-IQ not available to many back in Nicolino Locche's era.