IID: Abortion Is Murder
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
STANCES:
PRO shall only argue that Abortion Is Murder
CON shall only argue that Abortion Is NOT Murder
* * *
DEFINITIONS:
All medical terms shall first be defined from Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary, available here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical
All legal terms shall first be defined from The Law's Legal Dictionary, available here:
https://dictionary.thelaw.com/
And if either Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary or The Law's Legal Dictionary cannot provide a definition, then Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary available at merriam-webster.com will be used for all other words.
Specific definitions for debate:
Abortion: The premeditated and willful removal of a fetus by all causes other than any form of spontaneous miscarriage, birth, or delivery procedure. The Plan B pill does not count as a spontaneous miscarriage.
Murder: premeditated killing of a human being.
Killing: the act of making a living thing dead.
Fetus: an unborn vertebrate that follows the developmental plan of its kind.
* * *
RULES:
1. Burden of Proof is shared.
2. No Ignoratio Elenchis.
3. No trolls.
4. Forfeiting one round = auto-loss.
"an unborn vertebrate that follows the developmental plan of its kind."
"in human reproduction, the process by which the male’s sperm unites with the female’s oocyte, creating a new life." [2]
"The first cell of a new human being forms during fertilization when an egg cell (from the mother) combines with a sperm cell (from the father). This cell has the genetic information that includes the encoded building instructions for the whole body." [4]
"As the growing baby develops in the womb, cells continue dividing, leading to the formation of various types of cells, tissues and organs. Even though the cells in different types of tissue (e.g. muscle cells and liver cells) carry out very different tasks, they still contain the same genetic information that was passed on from the very first cell." [4]
"Laws vary by state, but here are the things you should consider:Learn about the laws in your state. Laws about abortion vary by state, including whether or not it’s legal and how late into pregnancy you can get one. You may need to travel to another state for care.Find out if there’s a waiting period in your state. Some states have waiting periods, which means having an appointment and then waiting 1-3 days before having your abortion.If you’re under 18, find out if you need parental consent. Some states require people under 18 to get parental consent or notify a parent. You can get around this with a judicial bypass." [5]
"As illustrated above, this guideline is centred on the values and preferences of abortion seekers, and considers them as active participants in as well as beneficiaries of health services." [6]
"characterized by fully conscious willful intent and a measure of forethought and planning" [7]
"premeditated killing of a human being."
"I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don’t know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus." [8]
"I have angry feelings at myself for feeling good about grasping the calvaria [head], for feeling good about doing a technically good procedure that destroys a fetus, kills a baby." [9]
Abortion: The premeditated and willful removal of a fetus by all causes other than any form of spontaneous miscarriage, birth, or delivery procedure. The Plan B pill does not count as a spontaneous miscarriage.
Murder: premeditated killing of a human being.
Fetus: an unborn vertebrate that follows the developmental plan of its kind.
Abortion: The premeditated and willful removal of a fetus by all causes other than any form of spontaneous miscarriage...
- Removing a not-yet-mature fetus from a dead mother before the fetus is considered "alive" by any means and to artifically mature the fetus into a functioning individual
- A veterinian removing the unborn fetus of a cat and a dog, which are not human
- Taking the fertilized egg out of the womb, of any species of vertebrae, and ensure it can grow artificially and NOT die
- This is due to Pro saying:
- Once I prove that a human life begins at conception...
Murder: premeditated killing of a human being.
PRO:From here, it is conclusively proven that abortion is murder. It is a premeditated killing of a living human being.
- An abortion done to non-human vertebrae are NOT murder.
- Removing the egg from the woman and let it grow into a baby afterwards, which is theoretically possible, murders no one.
- Removing the egg from the artificial environment and into the woman's womb, which is practically possible, murders no one.
- The equivalence asserted in the topic is proven false. Vote CON!
Abortion: The premeditated and willful removal of a fetus by all causes other than any form of spontaneous miscarriage, birth, or delivery procedure. The Plan B pill does not count as a spontaneous miscarriage.
During IVF, mature eggs are collected (retrieved) from ovaries and fertilized by sperm in a lab. Then the fertilized egg (embryo) or eggs (embryos) are transferred to a uterus. One full cycle of IVF takes about three weeks. Sometimes these steps are split into different parts and the process can take longer. [1]
Abortion: The premeditated and willful removal of a fetus by all causes other than any form of spontaneous miscarriage, birth, or delivery procedure. The Plan B pill does not count as a spontaneous miscarriage.
This would require the animal to premeditate and willfully remove the fetus from its body. Since animals cannot communicate consent, they therefore cannot have abortions.
: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) : a person : MAN sense 1c—usually plural
- Cases regarding non-human animals are still not yet ruled out due to a lack of clarification on "premeditation".
- Because sometimes, what kills the fetus is not abortion itself, then according to the problem with inheritance, the equivalence cannot be drawn here.
- Removal can occur involving no wombs, let alone killing or murder.
- Aliens that are not humans could give abortions, and they cannot be considered murder, nor can they be absolutely disproven.
- A dead person can be considered a person, so removing a dead fetus, being abortion, kills absolutely nothing.
- Therefore, the equivalence "Abortion = murder" cannot be drawn. This means, as of yet, "Abortion ≠ Murder". Vote CON.
Conclusions
- Cases regarding non-human animals are still not yet ruled out due to a lack of clarification on "premeditation".
- Because sometimes, what kills the fetus is not abortion itself, then according to the problem with inheritance, the equivalence cannot be drawn here.
- Removal can occur involving no wombs, let alone killing or murder.
- Aliens that are not humans could give abortions, and they cannot be considered murder, nor can they be absolutely disproven.
- A dead person can be considered a person, so removing a dead fetus, being abortion, kills absolutely nothing.
- Therefore, the equivalence "Abortion = murder" cannot be drawn. This means, as of yet, "Abortion ≠ Murder". Vote CON.
Conduct for forfeiture.
Well played kritik by con, side stepping pro’s case by embracing pro’s definitions (in spite of what pro claimed). It set pro so of balance that he tried to argue that any case wherein the mother does not give consent doesn’t count as abortion (which would self evidently include so many terrible cases).
Pro argued he used weird definitions so he wins.
Con brings up that said definitions include cat abortions, IVF, and more; all cases in which it’s “abortion” but no human being has been killed for it to then be “murder”
So, I guess this instead?
The deliberate termination of a human pregnancy in all forms except spontaneous miscarriage and delivery.
I'll accept the current format the way it is. No alterations are required.
On second thought, you can keep the current definition as is.
Though, to be clear, any form of delivery and c-section doesn't count as termination of pregnancy.
Yes.
Of course I wouldn't. That is a spontaneous miscarriage. That isn't murder because it isn't premeditated.
Will you settle for:
The deliberate termination of a human pregnancy in all forms except spontaneous miscarriage.
He's certainly not going to change it to the first one.
If you change the definition of abortion to one of the two options, I will accept.:
1. "Spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation."
2. "The deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy."
If you want this one I'll drop the rating to 1632.
Lower the rating required and I'll accept.
Roman Catholics oppose contraceptives, but from what I understand don't consider it murder, just a subversion of the purpose of sex in God's plan.
I don't, because, you know, biology. But some definitely do.
All good!
Regarding Plan B, it could be argued that it's an extension of contraceptives. Granted, some people do argue contraceptives are murder...
lol I misread the description as saying Plan B does not count as abortion. Carry on.
I've also seen it argued (wrongly) that a Plan B pill causes a spontaneous miscarriage. Even though this doesn't make any sense, considering it literally causes the miscarriage to happen, making it an induced miscarriage, I didn't want to waste time debating that when the real issue at hand is whether the act of aborting the child is murder.
Because I wanted to make it clear that it counts as abortion. That's all. It technically creates a miscarriage.
Why do you exclude Plan B from other abortive procedures? It functions by preventing a fertilized egg or developing blastocyst from implanting in the uterine wall. So if the rights of an embryo begin at conception, this is just as much murder as any other form of terminating a pregnancy.
Just so it's clear. Nothing in the definitions say:
1. That the fetus is a human being
2. That it is alive in the womb.
So if you still believe this debate is too hard to win, then it really shows that, ultimately, you agree that abortion is murder.
This should be a pretty straightforward debate if you honestly think the fetus isn't a human being or alive. But since nobody has dared to take this one, it seems apparent that I have won the debate before even starting.
I changed "termination" to "removal."
Hence the reason I chose dictionaries and put specific definitions...
I think you and Barney should agree together with who to put as judges for the debate and then agree to do it.
The debate is semantic in nature. You shouldn't post definitions at all.
Obviously most pro choice and pro life people are working with different definitions of murder and both groups oppose murder.
No. As clearly stated in the debate prompt, I want to debate whether abortion is murder.
This isn't Kafka Trapping. I literally want to debate whether non-spontaneous-miscarriage abortion is murder. Pretty straightforward.
Is the problem with termination of a fetus? Should I change it to expulsion of a fetus? Is that the problem?
It does feel almost like you wish to have a debate on if abortion ends a pregnancy.
...
That said, I do see a fun angle a contender could use to win.
With the changed definition of fetus, I don't think you'll have that problem anymore, since a fetus is an unborn vertebrate of its kind.
I changed the definition of fetus. Apparently people thought I was trying to set a trap with it.
I used baby because the two are synonyms in my head. Fetus means baby in the womb. But I changed it because I didn't want people getting the wrong idea.
You made the determination it is alive, and a human, not the definitions. You all must inherently agree the fetus is a living human being, in which case you all agree abortion is murder and my work here is done lol.
This is a very well formulated set of rules. In principle, I agree with the topic, and the debate seems nearly impossible for a contender to win.
This is not fair ground to argue.
Definition of murder= premeditated human killing
Abortion is defined as = premeditated baby (fetus defined as) killing
The definition for baby is obviously "tiny human"
There is zero room to argue this
Also, the definition for “fetus” is oxymoronic. “Babies” usually apply to human individuals briefly after birth, not before. Pretty sure the dictionary used not this one.
Please revise the definition of “abortion” so it specifically applies to human beings. I don’t want the same thing done twice.
Oh no
Ok. I'll add "of a human being" lol. Good point.
"I committed murder via making my living salad dead during lunch today."
and
"technically killing an insect would be "murder.""
are all correct claims. But they hold no relevance in disproving or proving any position in the debate, so they should not be used in the debate due to their irrelevance.
Please call the police, I committed murder via making my living salad dead during lunch today.
With your definitions, technically killing an insect would be "murder." There's no way that your definitions correspond with the legal definitions.
Definition of murder from the U.S. Code:
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
So... Premeditated killing...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111
No they aren't.
Because I wanted to debate the topic, so I liked those definitions better.
Also the definitions are a little bit rigged - I've never seen a definition of murder like that.
Why list dictionaries to be used, then not use their terms?
E.g., https://dictionary.thelaw.com/murder/
I'd love to have a legitimate debate over the ethics and morality of abortion - I'm afraid I'm rather busy at present, but I'd be interested in accepting in the future.
I got tired of seeing these silly debates where people got demolished over "SpOnTAneOUs MisCaRRiaGeS CouNT As ABoRtiOnS." The question is simple, is the physical act of having a doctor remove a fetus out of a woman's body murder or not? Ditto for the Plan B pill.
I made it 1700 because I want to have a challenging debate on this issue. I believe this topic is a slam shut victory for PRO. I believe it is extremely difficult to argue that abortion is not murder.
However, I will accept AustinL0926 if he expresses interest because he will clearly surpass 1700 within months. Shoot, he might even become #1 ranked in time with the amount of debates he can have at once and still bring an A game.