Star Wars: On balance, the battle of Endor is more winnable than the battle of Scarif for the Rebels
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 18,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Assumptions:
1. We only consider the Prequels, the OT, and Rogue One as canon here. Only these 7 movies and anything appearing in them.
2. The Battle of Endor takes place in 4 ABY. The Battle of Scarif takes place in 0 BBY. Both are conflicts between the rebels and the Empire. Any other battle with the same name would be disregarded.
3. For the Battle of Scarif, we assume that the freight ship used by Rogue 1 is sure to arrive on Scarif, in which Rogue 1 has already formed.
4. For the Battle of Endor, we assume that Luke is sure to arrive in the Endor System.
5. We disregard any plot armor. Sure, the movies only consider the possibilities of the rebel alliance winning, although the chance is small for either of the two.
6. Wookiepedia is a valid source, unless any cited page is currently under construction or controversy.
- Rebels successfully acquiring a copy of the blueprints of DS1 & out of the control of Imperial forces
- The Rebels have to actually transmit the data to outside Scarif so the information is available to all rebels, not just Rogue 1
- Unless the DS plans are successfully brought back to the rebel base OR having it evacuated to a location discoverable by others BUT outside the responsibility of the team that originally received the information, the battle is NOT considered a Rebel victory as it would otherwise do nothing
- Darth Sidious is Killed
- Without him, a major chunk of the inner workings of the empire would be reduced to stone so I would call it a win
- The DS2 is destroyed
- Preferrably with Palpatine stuck in the DS2
- The freight shuttle failing the initial inspection(meaning they can't even enter the stronghold to begin with)
- K-2SO saying "I have a bad feeling about this" a bit too loud, revealing themselves
- Bodhi throwing out the mine a little too late
- Chirrut's force senses not working resulting in the switch not correctly activated(resulting in lack of communcation between the ground and space)
- Jyn, Andor and K-2SO not passing that one(or any) Imperial post
- Jyn failing to correctly identify "stardust" resulting in the wrong thing being sent
- Andor failing to climb back to the observatory deck, resulting in Jyn being executed by Krennic
- Generally, the Imperial forces just destroys the Rogue 1 team, period
- The Hammerhead corvette failing to push the 2 Star Destroyers, so the shield is never down, and the rebels lose eventually in a war of attrition
- Admiral Raddus not being there
- Tantive IV not being there
- Either or Both of the two ships being destroyed too quickly
- Darth Vader grabs the card with the compressed file for the blueprints before the rebel soldiers can transport them to the Tantive IV
- The gunners on the Star Destroyer shooting down the pod containing R2-D2 before it lands on Tatooine
- At the time, Luke is not as strong as Vader, who is not as strong as Palpatine
- When Palpatine is torturing Luke, Vader is capable of throwing Palpatine down the shaft
- It is almost sure that Luke will lose the lightsaber duel eventually and get electrocuted by Palpatine sooner or later
- So, it is almost sure that Palpatine will be thrown down the shaft of DS2 by Vader.
- Leia, knowing she is force-sensitive too, can be a substitute to Luke in, probably a year, knowing how talented the gene lineage is.
- The rebellion still has Han, Lando, and numerous other ace pilots.
- Ackbar and several other commanders are still alive.
- The success on Scarif was depended on several chained events that depended on luck.
- The succes at Endor wasn't as depended on luck. Although the speed at which the rebellion acted was pretty lucky, these tasks ought to be done eventually due to how little direct blockage are present to prevent the rebels from fulfilling them.
- The Emperor dying at Endor is a possibly guaranteed moment.
- Due to these, I thus conclude that the battle of Endor is more winnable for the rebels than the battle of Scarif.
- Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
- Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
- Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.
- Rule #1 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Endor:
- Rule #2 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Scarif:
- Luck was on The Rebels’ Side.
- A test of forces.
- Rule #1 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Endor:
Don’t let politicians make military strategies.
Taking out Palpatine isn’t necessarily a victory for the Rebels, as there is still a chain of succession. Mas Amedda, the head of the Imperial government was established as a failsafe long before the downfall (No pun intended.) of the Emperor.
- Just because Nazi Germany lost the war does not mean the invasion on Poland and France is a German loss.
- The battle of Hoth eventually lead to things that eventually lead to a rebel victory.
The following strategies employed by the Rebels at the Battle of Scarif.
- Luck was on The Rebels’ Side.
It can be argued that the Empire had the advantage technologically with their formidable Starfighters, but the elements of surprise and unpredictability gave the Rebels a guaranteed victory.
- The times where the success of the entire battle is down to an unpredictable act relied on a single person, where the single person could arguably fail in any one of them:
- Chirrut has to switch on a lever across an active battlefield with nothing but force as guidance
- Jyn has to climb up an entire facility tower with a hard disk drive the size of a television on her back, which she ASSUMED it to be what she is looking for
- The rebel soldiers have to pass the card containing the compressed information to inside Tantive IV, facing against the second most power force-sensitive person in the Empire who is sufficiently fluent in the art of force kinetics
The Alliance puppeteered this perfectly.This was more a battle of psychology than it was a battle of forces. In knowing the Empire would not be expecting this attack, they successfully mentally outmaneuvered them and managed the victory by taking them off-guard.
- A test of forces.
Since a lot of the Rebels’ victory at The Battle of Scarif was more mind games than anything else, the Battle of Endor was more about the physicality of trading blows.
Everything was at stake.The two most dangerous people in the world are those with everything to lose and those with nothing to lose.
The Rebels were becoming predictable.They basically resorted to the same strategy every-time. The Empire was able to predict a lot of these oncoming attacks and circumvent them.
A Chain is only as strong as its weakest link.Say for instance, the opposing forces utilized by the Rebels. They can’t afford a lot of Cruisers, so they can only rely on starfighters and small corvettes. This is a pretty big deal when you’re just Athens going up against Persia.
- The goal is to steal the DS plans.
- Infiltrate and transmit the data back to Rogue One.
- Disable the shield generator.
- Destroy the second Death Star.
For Andor appearing at the last moment to punish Krennic, we have no idea in fact how the heck he climbed up there so quickly having took a fall that great. In fact, it is not impossible that Krennic's bodyguards just shot him or Jyn dead on the spot.
For Chirrut's role, he is a blind force-sensitive who wasn't even considered by the Jedi Council, and he is walking along an active battlefield with nothing but the sheer guidance of the force. We have no reason to trust him in the first place except for the fact that he is possibly the only one present with the force.
At 55 minutes into Ep6, all Han needed for landing on Endor was an older clearance code that still checks out. Yeah, and that is pretty much all "infiltration" the battle of Endor requires. The stormtrooper forces on Endor are so garbage that Ewoks can vanquish them using tree logs and manual wings, so the hiding from these guys can be considered negligible in difficulty, at least compared to what the guys on Scarif did. Although the main team having plot armor is something existing for all these main movies, it is to be pointed out that although 1 great blaster shot to save the day is not representative of the overall stormtrooper forces, the force deployed on Endor was running into trees and being taken out by single shots possibly every single minute. That is how inexcusable they are at their jobs.
Scarif:
- The goal is to steal the DS plans.
- Infiltrate and transmit the data back to Rogue One.
Since the Imperial defenses on Scarif didn’t actually see this coming, infiltration is actually easier. This is more of a test of camouflage and stealth than pure firepower. While their cover was blown, the Rebels were more than capable of fending off the foot soldiers. But even if the Rebels fail in their quest, it doesn’t mean the end of the Rebellion.
That is without considering that The Battle of Endor NEEDS pilots like Lando to even have a chance of victory. Scarif?? Not so much.
Rebuttal 1: Sneaking past Imperial Officers is actually too easy in the STW universe because enemies can blend in by literally standing in front of them, hiding in plain sight.
And for a skilled marksman like Andor, blasting away Krennic’s bodyguards off-guard before they even spot him shouldn’t be too difficult.
Rebuttal 2: Chirrut has proven to be an invaluable asset, specifically when you’re cornered or outnumbered by enemies. It is his abilities alone that can give you the headstart needed to leave a mark.
Rebuttal 3: The first two sentences are the same circumstances for infiltration at The Battle of Scarif too. The Rebels sneak in through the security gate and are able to keep up this ruse for a little longer.
They’re able to overcome any enemies that blow their cover within two seconds.
The Battle of Endor is longer.The Battle of Scarif was essentially more of a stealth mission than a fight, but even still, it isn’t as drawn out as the Battle of Endor. Instead it is quicker and more brief.
You would be correct, but that says nothing. It is incredibly easy for the rebels to go into the Scarif system and leave unscarred, however, it requires a difficult of another magnitude to achiece something, namely to actually receive the transmission and get out of there. The Scarif crew almost didn't get out of there, because Darth Vader himself chased Leia's ship all the way to Tatooine.
How capable are the rebels? Well, even if many of them were agents and armed warriors, they were physically outnumbered: Initially, the rebel force was a freight ship of soldiers, and later came in only a few X-wings and U-wings(which carry troops, but not a lot of them), with heavy casualties just trying to get in from above there(For example, nearly 10 X-wings died for closing the gate). On the other hand, they are by an Imperial stronghold, aided with significantly more stormtroopers and even death troopers. Only 1 force-sensitive was present and even his play of his part was as risky as it was necessary, dying on the battle to show how active the battlefield is.
Scarif do need pilots such as Lando on both smaller ships and larger ships to fend off Imperial Ties and Star destroyers up in the air. The only reason Lando wasn't there to begin with was because he hadn't heard of the initiative directly. Also, don't doubt Lando's abilities, or the Millenium Falcon's. Or their affinity, because they work.
You are correct, though tension was required for all three fronts on Scarif whereas for Endor, the crew can have tea onboard their Mon Cala cruisers due to the massive blind spots created by the massive sphere of DS-2, in which it cannot be defended with star destroyers alone unless we have over 100 of them stationed there alert at all times without strategic mistakes such as that of Piett. After the shield was down, just how immobile imperial equipment are on Endor gave the rebels a large mobility advantage. It doesn't matter how long the battle is on Endor, because the imperial framework alone was flawed.
- Bodhi throwing out the mine a little too late
- Jyn, Andor and K-2SO not passing that one(or any) Imperial post
- Jyn failing to correctly identify "stardust" resulting in the wrong thing being sent
- The Hammerhead corvette failing to push the 2 Star Destroyers, so the shield is never down, and the rebels lose eventually in a war of attrition
I label the ones that are the most likely in bold. Con can refute any or even all of them as they wish.
You would be correct, but that says nothing. It is incredibly easy for the rebels to go into the Scarif system and leave unscarred, however, it requires a difficult of another magnitude to achiece something, namely to actually receive the transmission and get out of there. The Scarif crew almost didn't get out of there, because Darth Vader himself chased Leia's ship all the way to Tatooine.My opponent concedes this very important point. The Rebels had the Element of Surprise on their side when they were going to Scarif, but Sidious KNEW they were coming when they landed on Endor.
The Rebel forces that were fighting in the Battle of Endor were not only outnumbered but were going up against very large military vehicles.
Relying on Lando's piloting abilities alone is more risky than on Scarif, given the limitations of the starfighters and corvettes.
Pro also concedes on the point that the Battle of Endor took longer. The amount of time it takes to accomplish something gives a lot of idea about the difficulty. Each second the battle took was just another moment closer to losing the war.
- Con dropped several points.
- On Endor, the military vehicles are so large they end up hurting the imperial effort.
- On Endor, there is 1 or 2 risky people crucial to the Rebel's success(even if you count Luke, which I don't). On Scarif, there is at least 3.
- The Scarif base was much more alert and compacted than anything on Endor, making it harder.
- Overall, the Battle of Scarif was harder for the rebels to win. Vote PRO!
- Proven that The Rebels’ attack wasn’t expected on The Battle of Scarif.
- Proven that The Emperor predicted the Rebels on the Endor Moon.
- Pro agrees that the Battle of Endor was longer than Scarif. This last point means Endor was way more difficult to win.
I can probably do so tomorrow.
a vote would be appreciated.
Bump for some votes, shall we?