Instigator / Pro

Mall

1389

rating

414

debates

44.57%

won

Topic

#3883

As long as the system of currency exists, there is no such thing as debt free .

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Novice_II

Tags

Economics

Parameters

Publication date: 11.12.2022 12:07PM
Last updated date: 12.27.2022 04:55PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 25,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Novice_II

1896

rating

100

debates

93.5%

won

Description

Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

I'll expound on the debt I'm talking about so those that elect to enter this exchange, enter at their own peril. You enter this thing finding out you actually agree, there goes the debate.

Questions on the topic, send a message, leave a comment, good day.

Round 1

Mall

11.14.2022 11:56AM

Pro

In talking about debt, I'm referring to all financial obligation. Keyword ALL, ALL financial obligation matters is a debt.

The debt is something obligated to be paid in order to satisfy a charge for something in the world of commerce.

We have a currency system in order to buy goods and services that are for sale.

The cost or price of something is what you can say is the condition, prerequisite to meet in order to acquire (buy) the product/commodity.

Now people look at debt as a credit card balance which is an obligation. Any type of loan, car loan, mortgage, student loan, these are all sorts of debts.

But they're not all the kinds that only exist due to the currency system that keeps us owing somebody because we're always in need of exchanging in the commerce world.

Novice_II

11.16.2022 11:56AM

Con

Forfeited

Round 2

Mall

11.16.2022 02:27PM

Pro

I rest my case.

Novice_II

11.18.2022 01:23PM

Con

Definitions

Debt: a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: a state of owing

Overview

The proposition pro needs to defend is that "[a]s long as the system of currency exists, there is no such thing as debt free." Because this is a universal claim (in the sense that it is impossible for someone to be debt free under this system, pro needs to show the contradiction in someone not being in a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: a state of owing under a system that holds a currency. We can express this as such:

P1) If a claim is made for all of x, that x cannot be debt free under a given system and set of conditions, the claim must demonstrate the contradiction in the existence of its negation (x can be debt free under a given system) (A→B)

P2) Pro made a claim that for all of x, x cannot be debt free under a given system and set of conditions (B)

C) Pro must demonstrate the contradiction in the existence of its negation (∴A)

Now to easily demonstrate that this proposition in the resolution is false, we can simply point out that reports on Experian studies show that "[a]ccording to that same Experian study, less than 25% of American households are debt-free. This figure may be small for a variety of reasons, particularly because of the high number of home mortgages and auto loans many Americans have."

Further, given that pro offered no definitions or arguments in the first round, we can offer "rebuttals," to the vague notions of propositions expressed by pro who holds the burden of proof.

The cost or price of something is what you can say is the condition, prerequisite to meet in order to acquire (buy) the product/commodity.

I can agree with this proposition if it is as trivial as saying the cost of an item, is what you need to pay in order to obtain it, however, this does not mean someone is in debt for purchasing a such item as long as he does not owe money to anyone prior to the transaction.

...we're always in need of exchanging in the commerce world'

There is no entailment here that one is in "a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: or, a state of owing.

Round 3

Mall

11.19.2022 12:07PM

Pro

"The cost or price of something is what you can say is the condition, prerequisite to meet in order to acquire (buy) the product/commodity."

"I can agree with this proposition if it is as trivial as saying the cost of an item, is what you need to pay in order to obtain it"

It's not really what you call a proposition. It's just the truth. Not even something to look at for a chance to be contestable.

You have not much choice else where but to agree with the truth.

Often times, you guys rarely recognize truth when you read it and want to fight with it .

I never said I propose this. Where do you get this from? None other than ideas in your own head .

"however, this does not mean someone is in debt for purchasing a such item as long as he does not owe money to anyone prior to the transaction. "

I want you to pay close attention to what I'm saying. Make an effort to understand, don't gloss over anything.

The person as long as they're in the system of currency, living by participating in the world of commerce always owing somebody in the present and future, it will be that .

Before we go too far because you're going to just get confused after this point, do you understand this part?

"There is no entailment here that one is in "a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: or, a state of owing. "

I'll ask this to get a straight answer. Do you believe that in this system we live by exchanging currency back and forth, that there are cases of payment obligation directly or indirectly that don't exist?

Are you saying there are instances where no payment to somebody somewhere is required in exchange for something?

This goes back to the ever existing prison of finances.

Like I said when I'm talking about debt, I have a well rounded scope.

I'm not just talking a credit card balance. After an item is in your possession, depending on the terms, you're still paying on it .

As you continue to thirst for water, someone else has a price, prerequisite, obligation, condition for you to meet to receive the water.

The reality is, it's a never ending process of a cycle. That is the nature of debt or being indebted.

Novice_II

11.21.2022 12:06PM

Con

My showing that there are around 25% of people who are debt free was dropped. This in of itself disproves the resolution.
Extend all arguments as Mall has not shown the contradiction: (as reminder)

The proposition pro needs to defend is that "[a]s long as the system of currency exists, there is no such thing as debt free." Because this is a universal claim (in the sense that it is impossible for someone to be debt free under this system, pro needs to show the contradiction in someone not being in a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: a state of owing under a system that holds a currency.

Now to easily demonstrate that this proposition in the resolution is false, we can simply point out that reports on Experian studies show that "[a]ccording to that same Experian study, less than 25% of American households are debt-free. This figure may be small for a variety of reasons, particularly because of the high number of home mortgages and auto loans many Americans have."

Needing to pay for something does not mean you are in debt. Debt: a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: a state of owing. Back to Mall.

Round 4

Mall

11.22.2022 04:49PM

Pro

"My showing that there are around 25% of people who are debt free was dropped. This in of itself disproves the resolution."

My apologies, it's not my intent to ignore you.

So you're saying there are people that are " debt free". Ok , are you dropping what debt is as I communicate it?

You say I'm ignoring you but in actuality, you're neglecting what I say when I use terms .

When you communicate with people, understanding their position, you are to understand what their position is and if it is valid based on their position standards, not yours . Why?

It's because it's THEIR position. Plain and simple.

I'm going to give an example because I want all of you to get this.

I say that I'm an atheist for instance because I don't believe that God exists.

Atheists like myself have no beliefs.

That's what it means in my position to be an atheist and those alike.

Someone else that believes different says atheists believe there is no God .

That person says "So you're not an atheist". Not only is that person out of place telling me what my own position is that is subject to none else but myself, they're disregarding my position as it is constituted.

When someone tells you what it means to them, you can only contest the validity within the subjective stance.

So in that example, an atheist is someone who disbelieves. How can that outsider refute it as an actual stance based on it ?

The outsider has to find something inconsistent, invalid, something in error from a conflict or contradiction within the stance to negate the stance altogether as being true.

So if it is learned that the standard to disbelief is about personal feelings, not liking the idea of God, it wouldn't hold up.

Thus therefore debunking the stance altogether based on "its logic".

So this is called arguing my position, not what you want it to be and refute that.

Now kindly argue mine.

"Needing to pay for something does not mean you are in debt. Debt: a state of being under obligation to pay "

You just contradicted your point.

Again, I don't think you answered my question. Are there instances while being in existence of this system at the same time that a payment is not obligated for something directly or indirectly?

You say debt is not needed which is not required which is not mandated or obligated to pay , then state a definition that says just that .

If I'm obligated, I need to , I have to.

Now you or someone might say "state of". This is what a lot of you are missing.

Under what instance are we not under that state directly or indirectly?

As long as this system exists, it's a repetitive cycle of commerce, exchanging goods and currency, so when are we not under that?

It's a system, understand, a system. It's not stop and go, on and off. It's a non-stop system.

Novice_II

11.24.2022 11:13AM

Con

x. Debt

So you're saying there are people that are " debt free". Ok , are you dropping what debt is as I communicate it?

Yeah, I don't really care what definitions you make up if they are not stipulated in the debate rules. You could define debt as a "purple talking dog" for all I care, I will just use the actual definition of debt which is "a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received: a state of owing."

a. Lack of contradiction

Pro is claiming that an entity can't be free from debt under a society with currency, so we need the contradiction in the existence of someone who is debt free within this set of conditions. Otherwise, the proposition is false. The argument:

P1) If a claim is made for all of x, that x cannot be debt free under a given system and set of conditions, the claim must demonstrate the contradiction in the existence of its negation (x can be debt free under a given system) (A→B)
P2) Pro made a claim that for all of x, x cannot be debt free under a given system and set of conditions (B)
C) Pro must demonstrate the contradiction in the existence of its negation (∴A)

Is clearly both deductively valid and sound, so we can just extend this. Also, remember that a decent proportion of Americans are debt-free as of now: "[a]ccording to that same Experian study, less than 25% of American households are debt-free. This figure may be small for a variety of reasons, particularly because of the high number of home mortgages and auto loans many Americans have."
Mall just needs to counter everything above so we can go to rebuttals.

Other

You just contradicted your point.

What set of propositions form the contradiction? If these are not provided we should see a concession on this point.

Are there instances while being in existence of this system at the same time that a payment is not obligated for something directly or indirectly?

If the question is, are there instances, where someone in such a system is not in a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something, received: a state of owing, then yes, just under 25 percent of Americans are like this as seen above.

Round 5

Mall

11.25.2022 12:05PM

Pro

"Yeah, I don't really care what definitions you make up if they are not stipulated in the debate rules."

Well then we have nothing further. If you don't care to debate my position but to straw man it, you're blatantly ignoring what I'm saying and then claim you're refuting my position.

How can you refute my position as is if you are going to construct to refute that which isn't even mine?

We're not talking about rules. When someone has their own position, you have to debate them on it when you elect to participate.

Did you read all of the first round or skipped some or most of the information?

I made it very clear what my position is. I told you what I mean , what I'm talking about, how did you miss that?

This is nothing but a copout move making an excuse to avoid refutation on your part .

You don't care what I have to say pretty much by your statement. What's the matter with you guys?

Why are you so callous?

Do you have to take that much of a cheap move to be careless to the details of a person's stance?

You're looking for the "do's " and "don'ts" to this thing overlooking the fabric of facets of a person's position.

How can you refute somebody not knowing where and how they stand?

Duh, that's how the cheating strategy works.

I mean you can only make a statement such as you did by ignoring the very first statement I made.

Either that or you have poor reading comprehension.

The first statement in round one here.

"In talking about debt, I'm referring to all financial obligation. Keyword ALL, ALL financial obligation matters is a debt. "

Keyword there is ALL so everything that has to do with being obligated to finance or pay for something is debt.

Did you not read that or did you not care to read it?

If you don't care what somebody has to say, why debate them?

Seriously, what is the matter with you?

"Now people look at debt as a credit card balance which is an obligation. Any type of loan, car loan, mortgage, student loan, these are all sorts of debts."

I've made it very clear from what others mean by debt.

"But they're not all the kinds that only exist due to the currency system that keeps us owing somebody because we're always in need of exchanging in the commerce world."

Maybe you were looking for the term "debt" and then a hyphen followed by a series of terms.

But things are not always subjected to you. Especially other people's positions. It's their viewpoints at where they stand.

We're in open communication, I'm clearly telling you what I'm talking about. You have to be deliberately glossing over things, intellectually dishonest or slow to comprehend.

We're always in need of a exchanging currency for a product fulfilling a condition, satisfying that obligation.

Can you at least have some credibility and acknowledge based on how I view it, with this set of criteria, looking at debt as an ever going cycling system, we're not out of it because it's EVER GOING?

Can you be honest about that?

You and your voters I'm talking to.

I understand that from my stance you can't refute it. That's evident because you have not done so. You've pieced together your own position for me which you have no right, then refute that.

That's just playing with your own self. Like in chess, just playing yourself. Your opponent is just a figment of your imagined constructed strategy.

A bunch of sorry copout movers over here.

Can't even be honest that you actually have a profile that constantly was preoccupied by repeatedly occupying a certain debate topic.

Go to the lengths of denying a profile exists where we witness the activity of that profile doing what it does, making responses, making arguments, accepting challenges.

I can go on and on but I have faith, one day there'll be full maturation.

Call the truth I'm speaking a ramble. You can't refute it, so then name call it. Amusing, how I got you figured out.

I don't think I ever decided to ignore what a person's position was. I'm debating that person on it, logically I have to pay attention to it .

Oh golly, if all this was live, whoa .

Ending it on this note. No refutation was made against MY position period. Ok, no, absolutely none was made, not a lick of an effort. The victor is him that those whom have learned and been edified by his points , those being the world at large .

Novice_II

11.27.2022 12:05PM

Con

#10

Forfeited

Mall

12.27.2022 04:55PM

People know they're in the debt of paying things and try to vote against the truth. Home of hypocrites on this site.

Best.Korea

11.13.2022 11:04PM

System without currency would be effective. Without trade, economy would be better managed and resources better used. And yes, there would be little to no debt.

Intelligence_06

11.28.2022 03:41PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con wins by the margin the size of Grand Canyon with one key example: That almost 25% of US citizens are free of debt despite having a system of currency, namely the US Dollar.

Pro opens up with defining the debt and its range within "All debts", in other words, to Pro, unless no debt exists, the resolution seems false. Con presents dictionary evidence suggesting why or how people don't use it this way, and Pro never toppled this definition since and kept using his own definition(using the justification of that just because he thinks so), entering a conversation where the two competitors are talking to a glass wall.

The point where Pro starts losing is when he thinks he has solidified the correctness of his own definition when that wasn't actually the case. In that case, the default definition goes to whatever Con defined it as. Con's single example regarding about 25% of debt-free Americans living in America wins this debate by default.