Instigator / Pro

MeowRanger

1547

rating

debates

100.0%

won

Topic

#3882

Kashmir is an integral part of India

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

MeowRanger

Tags

Miscellaneous

Parameters

Publication date: 11.12.2022 09:40AM
Last updated date: 12.03.2022 10:11PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 1,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Public-Choice

1571

rating

debates

65.79%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

MeowRanger

11.22.2022 10:21AM

Pro

Hi friend I am new to this website and hoping to have a fun debate.

Ok So I'll get started with History,

*)In 1947 when India gained Independence from Britishers Kashmir could have joined India or Pakistan, under the leadership of Maharaja Hari Singh Kashmir Decided to stay Independent.

*)On 20/10/1947 Pakistan attacked Kashmir by forming an army of tribal muslims under Akbar Khan.

(Pakistan has accepted this in UN)

*)Raja Hari Singh tried to seek help from Indian army but failed because Mountbatten refused to send army for helping another country.

This all forced Raja Hari Singh for agreeing the accession proposal from India.(This included defence, Foreign affairs and Communications)

On 27/10/1947 the accession of Kashmir was completed with the sign of Sir Mountbatten.

"Clearly it was accepted among Kashmir and India to merge, it doesn't matter what other countries think about it."(My Opinion)

Source of Information: Kashmir, Behind the Vale by MJ Akbar ; The Kashmir Dispute by AG Noorani.

END

Public-Choice

11.23.2022 01:44PM

Con

PRO is arguing to continue systemic oppression of a Muslim area through being forced to be dejected from their home culture and integrated into a strange Indian polytheistic culture filled with many rituals Islamists consider sinful. By Kashmir being a member of India, the Indian government is culturally appropriating their values, ideas, and way of life on an area where the 68% of citizens disagree. This is undemocratic, oppressive, and immoral.

The Muslim oppressed peoples of Kashmir deserve to have a culture and country that matches their values, considering they make up the overwhelming majority of citizens in Kashmir. And telling them to leave their home and move somewhere else simply because a new country is oppressing them and attacking their values and culture is despicable, immoral, and cruel.

Therefore, the democratic solution is to cede Kashmir to Pakistan, a country that upholds the values, traditions, and way of life of the people of Kashmir.

Round 2

MeowRanger

11.24.2022 05:30PM

Pro

So con is telling me that in Kashmir, Muslims are being oppressed.

What about the Genocide of 1990?

*) More than 300,000 Kashmiri pandits were forced to leave Kashmir (Many murdered in process)

(I even talked to one of the Kashmiri pandit in New Delhi about this).https://www.historicalindia.org/article/genocide-of-kashmiri-pandits

*) Bitta Karate even accepted that he killed Kashmiri Pandits SELECTIVELY as he was ordered. He further added that he can even kill his mother if ordered to.

Now, I am leaving this upto you to decide that who is the REAL VICTIM here.

And now that con has mentioned it, tell me who is telling Kashmiri muslims to leave their homes, traditions or way of living?(No one is going to follow their path of achieving something)

Do you have any prove for your statements?

*)India is a SECULAR country and I don't think it's going to be a problem to establish peace in Kashmir if Kashmiri muslims cooperate.

That's it.

Public-Choice

11.24.2022 09:51PM

Con

PRO is spreading disinformation and Indian Government propaganda that the citizens of muslim-majority Kashmir do not align with muslim values and are not oppressed.

However, Aljazeera reports:

Unsurprisingly, the emergent generation of stone-pelting young Kashmiris identify with their Palestinian counterparts and are calling the new wave of protests an “Intifada”.

Moreover, India is engaging in a mass campaign to deject Kashmir Muslims from their homes:

The Indian government, like it did in the decade of 1990s, is again forcing the Kashmiri Pandits to migrate from the Indian illegally occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IIOJK), and the blame for this migration was once again being put on Pakistan and the Kashmiri freedom lovers.

India should do the right thing and let the Kashmir people live in the country that supports their values, Pakistan, rather than continue to suppress, culturally appropriate, and deject Muslims from their homes.

Round 3

MeowRanger

11.25.2022 01:34PM

Pro

So con isn't spreading any DISINFORMATION by stating that "Muslims are being oppressed"

Let me tell con, (*)that Muslims are not even original inhabitants of Kashmir. Islamic tyrants invaded Kashmir in 13th century as minority seeking for control over the WORLD CENTRE OF KNOWLEDGE.

*) Con should also read "https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11750529". "Kashmiri Hindus who resisted conversion were slaughtered" These are the exact words from Shamshuddin Mohommad Iraqi's Biography "Tohaful Ahabad".

*) After reading the above source with FREE MIND con must've understood that they invaded Kashmir as TYRANTS nothing else.

*) This all massacre which was done in Kashmir was done by Iraqi's Soldiers whom we know as Sunnis and Sufis.

*) Daily 1500 to 2000 HINDUS were forced to eat beef and follow the regimes of becoming muslims.

*) Kashmir belonged to Hindus even it's name was kept by their one of the great MUNIS or I'll say SCHOLARS - RISHI KASHYAP.

Public-Choice

11.25.2022 02:42PM

Con

PRO's cited source comes from a Wikipedia entry. Wikipedia, themselves, has stated:

Articles on less technical subjects, such as the social sciences, humanities, and culture, have been known to deal with misinformation cycles, cognitive biases, coverage discrepancies, and editor disputes.

Instead of using dubious sources rife with misinformation, the internationally recognized Encyclopedia Britannica states:

Although there was a clear Muslim majority in Kashmir before the 1947 partition, and its economic, cultural, and geographic contiguity with the Muslim-majority area of the Punjab could be convincingly demonstrated, the political developments during and after the partition resulted in a division of the region. Pakistan was left with territory that, although basically Muslim in character, was thinly populated, relatively inaccessible, and economically underdeveloped. The largest Muslim group, situated in the Vale of Kashmir and estimated to number more than half the population of the entire region, lay in Indian-administered territory, with its former outlets via the Jhelum valley route blocked.

Round 4

MeowRanger

11.26.2022 07:03AM

Pro

I will provide con some reliable sources to clear my point.

Bharistan-i-shahi, You must have read a name "Kashinath Pandit" who translated Bharistan-i-shahi in English.

*) This translation is also available on Internet luckily. That's quite big and very time consuming to read. I'll just provide you the page number of "Persecution of Hindus" which is 11-61.(persecution of hindus)

I guess this source must be reliable.

*) For reading about Shamshuddin Mohommad Iraqi's refer page number 10-34 in Bharistan-i-shahi.

*) "On the instance of Shamsud-Din Iraqi, Musa Raina had issued orders that everyday 1,500 to 2,000 infidels be brought to the doorstep of Mir Shamsud-Din by his followers. They would remove their sacred thread (zunnar), administer Kelima (Muslim profession of faith) to them, circumcise them and make them eat beef." source

*) On 19th January 1990, it was Kashmiri pandit's 7th exodus along with genocide.

*) Kashmir is part of India, it is a fact even if I lose this debate.

It was fun.

Public-Choice

11.26.2022 10:11PM

Con

PRO's source, the Baharistan-i-shahi, is a text shrouded in mystery. It is written by an unknown author and there is scant evidence to back up some of its claims, and it talks of events that are more than 400 years old and have absolutely zero bearing on today's Muslim Majority Kashmir and the systemic oppression by the Indian Government.

Nevertheless, PRO is asking readers to completely ignore the demographic make up of Kashmir and the fact that the gross majority of the citizens of Kashmir want to be under Pakistani rule, as proven by the reputable, mainstream news accounts documenting the desires of the Kashmir oppressed peoples that I previously cited which PRO has not disputed.

Moreover, India has been engaging in severe human rights abuses against the people of Kashmir, with Human Rights Watch summarizing the rap sheet as "restricting free expression, peaceful assembly, and other basic rights in Jammu and Kashmir."

With this being said, and the fact that India is being tyrannical and oppressive, the only democratic solution is to cede Kashmir to Pakistan nation, which is what the people of Kashmir want and will end the oppression of the Kashmir peoples.

Public-Choice

11.28.2022 02:49PM

#10

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@whiteflame

Thanks for voting!

whiteflame

11.27.2022 01:57AM

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@Public-Choice

I'll try to get to it.

RationalMadman

11.27.2022 01:55AM

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@Public-Choice

@MeowRanger

can either of you tell me where the word 'integral' was defined even indirectly in this debate?

Public-Choice

11.27.2022 01:52AM

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@RationalMadman

@whiteflame

@Novice_II

Votes appreciated.

Public-Choice

11.26.2022 10:12PM

I wanted to say it in the final round, but I didn't have enough characters remaining. Thank you for the debate, and welcome to the site. I hope you grow to like it as much as I have.

MeowRanger

11.26.2022 07:05AM

Finally the last argument it was really fun and I got to learn many new things via this debate..... Thanks con.

Public-Choice

11.23.2022 01:46PM

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@MeowRanger

No need to apologize. You are free to set up your debate however you want!

MeowRanger

11.22.2022 02:12PM

Sorry, I thought that would be enough.....

Public-Choice

11.16.2022 01:57PM

idk what can be done in 1000 characters or less, but this'll be fun.

Mharman

11.15.2022 03:06AM

All of Kashmir?

whiteflame

11.27.2022 05:13PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Neither debater seems to like or want to argue on the topic for much of the debate. A reminder, the topic is: "Kashmir is an integral part of India"

That's an "is" statement, suggesting a fact debate about what Kashmir's existing status is. That is distinct from an "ought" or "should" statement, which would have suggested what would be most beneficial for Kashmir and its inhabitants. Yet, the latter becomes the focus of this debate from the beginning of Con's argument. So, really, the only on-topic argument given in this debate is a history breakdown from Pro in R1, where he states that an accession proposal was signed and that that was tantamount to accepting their merger. Whether this makes Kashmir an "integral part" of India is unclear, but it at least treats this as a fact debate with regards to whether evidence suggests that, at least on the basis of this one agreement, Kashmir is a part of India, if only in this sense. That's the only fact-based support for why they are a part of India and not just why they should be a part of either India or Pakistan. If this was an ought resolution, Con would have done more than enough to support why Kashmir should be a part of Pakistan over India. Given that it wasn't, and given that Con is the only one with an argument on the fact resolution, I vote Pro.