Instigator / Pro

No_thanks

1496

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Topic

#3868

Who would win- 1 billion lions, or 1 of every pokemon?

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 13 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Games

Parameters

Publication date: 11.04.2022 03:27PM
Last updated date: 12.26.2022 12:27AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

The lions would easily be destroyed.

Round 1

No_thanks

11.04.2022 06:01PM

Pro

The pokemon could easily win using just one of the pokemon. Arceus. Arceus, according to a sinnoh legend- is literally a pokemon god. He could just, I don't know, give all the lions a deadly disease. or just teleport him and the pokemon to another planet, make an atmosphere there, and just erase earth. But even if arceus wasn't there, or if his powers were severely limited, there are still many strategies that the pokemon could use to easily destroy the lions.

Firstly, there is kyogre, who is shown in the game Pokemon sapphire to be flooding earth. He could just fly on rayquaza, who lives in the ozone layer, and just drown the lions. then at that point, the lions are screwed. Then you can take it a step further and get regigigas to move the tectonic plates, (which he could definitely do, as he moved the continents) and just cause an earthquake, thus making a tsunami. Even without the tsunami, the lions are screwed.

Secondly, there is jirachi. This pokemon can grant wishes, for 7 days every thousand years. mewtwo could fly into the sky and wait 1000 years, and ask jirachi to turn all the lions into a liquid. Mewtwo could just wait until the lions die of old age anyways.

Thirdly, there is a great chance that the lions will just fight and kill each other anyways. then, their numbers will be low, and the pokemon can just come in and kill them.

RationalMadman

11.11.2022 04:29PM

Con

I will lay out a brief and brutal case.

Everything Pro alludes to about infighting amongst the lions is not likely. Lions are not simplistic, if they perceive a threat they neither run instantly nor do they forget it is there. Lions that are male will at times be too proud to team up but vs multiple pokemon, no pion will hurt another. They may absolutely consider it a competition who can devour the prey but once they see a lion get hurt, the other lions/lionesses in particular females will band together and bait, trap, etc the pokemon mercilessly.

On the other hand, we have two separate psychological and strategic problems with pokemon. Pokemon in their own are mentally stupid and quite useless. They are just impulsive, disorganised and their power are unrefined as without a pokemon trainer in charge, they are not elite enough to pull off their skills. The pokemon trainers being involved is completely outside the scope of this debate and would mean it is several humans on top of the pokemon. Even if they were to have pretrained the pokemom that are unleashed, pokemon are used to battpes where they take turns and attack when and as commanded to, the wild and chaotic nature of the fight would confuse them. They would be confused, impulsive and engage in fight of flight madness while the lions engage in the calm and collected psychopathic strategy they use to hunt prey, among the lionesses with the male lions likely to still be very adept at enaging in surprising, brutal moves that catch the pokemon off-guard.

Let us remember this is 1 billion lions. Pokemon have limited energy, are trained in turn-based warfare and would be acting wild and simplistic such that even if trained well, their trainer is not there for the battle as it breaks the scope of debate. You do not put an MMA ring fighter into a real life battlefield, without their coach, and expect them to perform well vs those born and bred in such conditions and warfare.

Round 2

No_thanks

11.18.2022 04:29PM

Pro

Forfeited

RationalMadman

11.18.2022 11:26PM

Con

There are currently 905 Pokemon officially registered on the National Pokedex.

dexerto.com

The number is also backed up here: thegamer.com

The ratio of lions to pokemon is 1104972:1 if we round it to the nearest whole lion.

Pro can argue that the nature of powers of pokemon are such that a particular flight, fire, time-slowing etc power is so uniquely anti-lion that it will help the other pokemon but that's not really the case at all. There's limits to pokemon Pro forgot to mention.

They have limited energy, HP and capacity of attack, defense etc. A billion lions are not gonna be annihilated nearly in time with a 1104972:1 ratio for the uniqueness of abilities and element-types to counteract the sheer numbers advantage.

Hunting generally is done in the dark by the lionesses. They often hunt in groups of two or three, using teamwork to stalk, surround, and kill their prey. Lionesses aren't the most successful of hunters, because they usually score only one kill out of several tries. After the kill the males usually eat first, lionesses next—and the cubs get what's left. Males and females fiercely defend against any outside lions that attempt to join their pride.

nationalgeographic.com

The lions will win even harder if the fight is dragged out through to night time, while pokemon do have nocturnal ones, the irony is if Pro brings that up, most of them are going to be conceded to be useless during diurnal warfare wheras lions are brutal day or night, it's just they have an eyesight advantage at night plus their smell is powerful too.

In general, there are two known methods that Lions employ to hunt their prey. The first one is by stalking them. You’ve probably seen this behavior if you have a pet cat, or watched an animal documentary on television. This is the primary way that they hunt, which is to stay hidden for as long as possible while they approach their prey. This is another advantage that the Lioness has over the male, in that their bodies are slimmer, allowing them to stay hidden in the grass longer. Lionesses also work together when they hunt by surrounding their prey as they stay hidden. Eventually, though, the prey will notice or hear the approaching Lion, in which it will become a chase for them both. Once the Lion catches up to the prey, they use their powerful claws to maul at their prey and crush their necks, leaving them paralyzed to be taken back to the Lion’s home.

The other way that Lions hunt is a little more straightforward. This is when the male Lion also joins the hunt together with the Lionesses. For the second method, there is no hiding or stalking involved, they go for the big prey and then corner it strategically. Once the prey is cornered, the Lion comes in face to face to fight with the animal. In this scenario, the weight, brute strength and bravery of the Lion is what will determine the outcome of the hunt.

balisafarimarinepark.com

Round 3

No_thanks

11.25.2022 11:26PM

Pro

Forfeited

RationalMadman

11.26.2022 12:27AM

Con

Surrender

RationalMadman

11.26.2022 12:28AM

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@Barney

was FF pls vote ty

K_Michael

11.18.2022 11:25PM

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@Barney

Fair enough.

Barney

11.18.2022 09:41PM

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@K_Michael

Pokémons would lose without their trainer to guide them.

K_Michael

11.18.2022 06:23PM

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@Barney

How so?

Barney

11.18.2022 05:53PM

Ironic forfeiture considering cons argument.

K_Michael

11.11.2022 10:07PM

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@No_thanks

I would debate this with you using more rigid starting conditions, á la r/whowouldwin, such as bloodlust, prep time, etc.

K_Michael

11.05.2022 01:16AM

Fun fact: Swablu weighs 2.6 lbs and is capable of learning Fly through HM. Assuming the average 11 year old weighs 70 lbs, then Swablu can comfortably fly MILES with 29x its own body weight on its back.

There might be a smaller Pokemon that knows Fly, I didn't check every single Flying type entry.

K_Michael

11.04.2022 09:11PM

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@No_thanks

"He [Kyogre] could just fly on rayquaza"
lol Kyogre weighs almost twice as much as Rayquaza.

K_Michael

11.04.2022 05:22PM

According to Google there are 924 different pokemon (I have no clue if this includes mega evolutions and other new BS). That translates to an average of 1.082 MILLION lions per Pokemon.
If they're wild Pokemon, no shot. Trained high level pokemon with a well-stocked trainer behind them who can coordinate heals, etc., maybe.

K_Michael

11.26.2022 05:42AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

I would have liked to see better defined conditions, and would be interested in more r/whowouldwin type content on the site, but all of that is irrelevant bc FORFEITURE on the part of Pro.

Barney

11.26.2022 04:49AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Forfeiture. Pokémon cannot win without a trainer… and said trainer would probably be eaten by lions.
If doing this again, victory conditions should be pre-defined.