Instigator / Pro
39
1890
rating
98
debates
93.37%
won
Topic
#3775

The majority of animal agriculture in the United States is slavery [for @Oromagi]

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
9
Better sources
14
10
Better legibility
7
6
Better conduct
6
7

After 7 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

Novice_II
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
32
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description

Is Animal Farming Slavery?

Full resolution: The majority of animal agriculture in the United States is slavery.

The burden of proof is shared:
Pro: The majority of Animal agriculture in the US is slavery.
Con: The majority of Animal agriculture in the US is not slavery.

Slavery: the state of being owned by another person.
Animal agriculture is the rearing of animals for resources/food consumption.

All rules, terms, and specifications of the debate are agreed upon by acceptance.
Only Oromagi or Barney can accept this debate. Anyone else accepting will result in an automatic loss.

A desperate attempt of AI supporters to give rights to AI:

"If there were a species that was sentiently identical to humans, it would be absurd to suggest they can be farmed, enslaved, and ultimately consumed by virtue of being non-human"

Wrong. "species that is sentiently identical to humans can exist" is true. "species that is sentiently identical to humans can be farmed and consumed" is true. "is absurd" is not true. They can be farmed to increase human population. Thinking that non-human is more important than human is absurd. They are not equally important. Human is more important. There is no value in sentience. Nobody cares if you are sentient. AI doesnt have rights and will never have them. You can try all you want to give rights to AI. However, AI is only there to serve humans. It doesnt have any rights other than to serve humans.

"just as it would be to suggest the same if a population of humans over time evolved into a different species, but maintained the overwhelming majority of the same attributes."

Wrong. "population of humans that evolved into a different species can exist" is true. "population of humans that evolved into a different species can be farmed and consumed" is true. "is absurd" is not true. Thinking that non-human is more important than human is absurd. Non-human is less important than human. Non-human can be consumed to increase human population. Increasing human population is of greatest importance to humans. Humans should not allow to be decreased so that some non-human may live. Human life is the most important thing. Thinking that something non-human can have equal importance as human is absurd. Nobody cares about non-human attributes. We should judge such thinking as plot against humans. Anyone not working to increase human life decreases it. Non-human life is not more important than human life. Humans hold the greatest value. Anyone disagreeing with this should be corrected and put to shame for being an AI pervert.

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@RationalMadman

Huh. I guess I did miss the personhood argument. Though I think it is true - as oro said - that round 2 is too little too late for this kind of push.

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@Username

it isn't a flaw though, if you follow Novice's Round 2.

In fact Oromagi's way of exploring the lesser sentience of animals was so bad here that Novice got away with not at all proving that the animals have their sentience.

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@RationalMadman

Sure RM, if you really want to split hairs, maybe if oro made that argument and then screwed it up in the next rounds I still would've voted for Novice. But the whole reason I made my initial comment is because I noticed an immediate and exploitable flaw in the aff that would be hard to come back from. It's not like judges only can be confident in a debate's outcome once the final words have been said.

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@Username

It actually does mean that, you are saying using the argument wins the debate regardless of execution or what the opponent said.

It is the very same blindness driving all the people who voted against Novice in this debate.

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@RationalMadman

Yes, in this hypothetical I would've favored the side that made the stronger argument. But that doesn't mean that I'd always vote for Oro no matter what he said, just because he's a "human supremacist".

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@Username

Your vote was promised to always favour the human supremacist, mine is the openminded approach.

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@RationalMadman

If the value of humans vs. animals is directly relevant to the resolution, a vote that can put their views on that issue aside is clearly better than one that can't.

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@Username

I could say the opposite to you. I am entitled to vote as I want.

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@RationalMadman

If you wouldn't vote for any argument that is "human supremacist", then you probably shouldn't have voted on this debate.

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@Username

And I wouldn't.

It is human supremacist bigotry, plain and simple.

It seems to me that Pro's definition of "slavery" loses the debate on the spot. Con is right that grammatically, the word "another" implies that the person being owned in Pro's definition is a human; therefore, under Pro's definition, animal agriculture cannot be slavery.

Reading Con's R1 though, he kind of mishandles the issue. I think the correct (and kind of tricky) strategy here would have been to wholly concede Pro's definition and then make the argument that it negates the resolution. That takes out Moral Equalization because even if animal agriculture is morally equivalent to slavery, that's insufficient to prove that it is slavery, since slavery is a human-on-human offense. Con has all the right pieces to make this argument, but since he responded to everything and introduced a couple Ks, the point didn't come through.

Now, would people have voted on this argument? I don't know. I would've.

damn a #1 vs. #2 battle

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@Undefeatable

I haven't noticed much attention towards my vote. Just a report made against the original (but not the recast one), which is expected from some debaters regardless of the quality of the vote; and a couple comments from RM directed at me.

I thought my vote was pretty clear. The debate quickly became about if animals are people (as is required for them to count as slaves). While it might prove an interesting topic in its own debate, in this one it was perhaps the most extreme Semantic Kritik I've seen; and yes, I have been quite honest for a long time that I frown upon instigators K'ing against their own topic selection. Still I read the debate, and quoted from it to make my conclusions. A key factor was of course some of pro's own sources being caught directly contradicting pro's own case. I lost count of how many times pro repeated the same assertion about how animals are people because of self-determination, and I seem to have missed the evidence of said self-determination being actualized to then be violated (an assertion repeated 20 times without evidence, does not become good evidence by virtue of being repeated so many times). Whereas con leaning on the dictionary gave a definition for person which excluded farm animals and there was no reason to disregard.

So in short: con proved with evidence that within English humans are people, and offered sufficient challenge to pro's case of for being "non-sequitur."

Conduct over issues such as pro accusing con of being in favor of farming "elderly, the sick, and infants" from the human population; and rather obvious lies (such as at the start of R2 (I'll never understand why people on message boards do this, we can literally scroll up if we've forgotten what actually happened)).

At the end of the day, pro was not convincing to me that animals are the same as people, nor even significantly similar to people for there to be doubt. Were the debate /animals ought to be considered a class of people/ then he would have done quite well.

I usually do not look into on going vote dramas, but I think that, in the case of Barney's vote, his mind was made up prior to reading the debate. This is evident in the first line of his RFD, indicating Novice must win the debate with terms used "in plain English", implying that it is impossible for the instigator to win, despite the compelling justification of why a more compelling definition of person ought to be used.

I cannot imagine that anything Novice could have done would have adjusted his adjudication.

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@Barney

Barney, I think the issue is your vote received a lot of attention and it felt you didn’t really have a lot of good justification for it (especially for a moderator). You might think or know in your heart something that we can’t see, but you have to tell us. I myself am quite confused too. Could you go into more detail what your vote means?

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@Barney
@whiteflame
@Novice_II

I find it hilarious how Barney got to grudgevote against Novice and has zero warning because they lack proof but with me they assume it and punish. Hypocrites.

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@Vader

No it did not. You did not even say so and you were indeed online after I posted it as you replied to me after it was up.

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@Barney

I didnt base my vote on any policies except my own policy.

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@Best.Korea

https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#based-on-outside-content

I consider my vote logical because only I can decide what is logical. Therefore, whatever I label as logical is logical. I agree with this, so this too is logical.

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@Novice_II

The simple answer is that RM's vote broke the guidelines of the CoC due to surmounting evidence being a retaliation vote

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@Novice_II

Rules against voters participating will not be upheld by moderation btw.

Well, I am a bit appalled here. I don't understand why this could not have been left as is, a fair debate. I can understand wanting oromagi to win, and I have no problem with such on the face of it, but I tend to take issue when the phenomenon becomes taking actual moderation/voting action solely to ensure that this happens.

As a baseline, I tend to expect this from Barney, and some aspect of this could have been prevented (I should have made the rule that "Barney may not vote") so I may take slight indigence to that missed action.

I don’t really understand Barney’s first vote with sources too, and the second one isn’t much better. I didn’t notice any severe errors with conduct, but again I’m a pretty logical guy.

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@RationalMadman

I'm not going to take a side on a vote removal that another moderator executed and justified. Given that only Supa could make this call without being biased by his own vote, I'm not sure why you want me to take a position. It was his call. It wasn't mine to make during the debate and it's not mine to make now.

I'm telling you why he did it at this point instead of a different one prior to this - I talk to Supa often enough to know that his schedule is hectic. You're the one who is assuming an insidious reason is behind it. If you call it defensive of him to point out that there's nothing insidious about being busy, then yeah, I guess I defended his actions, though he is perfectly capable of defending himself.

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@whiteflame

"Why are you asking me to apologize for this when I was neither able to remove the vote as a voter on this debate nor had anything to do with Supa’s decision?

I’m more than willing to apologize if I’ve made a mistake, though you seem to think otherwise."

so protest it then, don't defend it.

He works under you and you defended his actions.

Pick a side, then I can explain why I expected you to apologise, now that I understand he was acting rogue, it perplexes me why you defended it.

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@Barney
@whiteflame
@Novice_II

Can you actually believe this shit, he will allow the reason Barney voted conduct but remove mine based on 'intent'.

This is a joke.

The only issue Supadudz had with the original vote was conduct, the fact he'd have removed it again if he had time proves pure corruption based on protecting Oromagi against an earned defeat.

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@Vader

you cannot even justify the vote removal other than assumed intent.

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@Vader

you didn't have a second vote to take down. You only said conduct was the issue and I used the same RFD again.

Based on the evidence provided, I, as within my rights, concluded that RM's vote was a retaliation and was not a genuine vote on the debate and should not count. I stand by the decision I made despite me not being available to take down the second vote

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@RationalMadman

I am not going to sit here and argue for you when I have a life to live. I stand by my vote that your vote was a retaliation vote and is forbidden by the CoC and should not have been verified due to implicit bias with bad conduct and source points. I could give benefit of the doubt to arguments, but the majority evidence suggest you retaliated to oromagi, especially after the comments you left on your debate and the vote he made.

And the fact you think I am lying about my activity is shocking. If I had the time, I would've removed your second vote under the same clause and the others and if I had the chance, would still remove your current vote and other vote bombs

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@Barney

As I understand, you will believe that your vote is a good reflection of the arguments presented in this debate. If that is the case, I will take it that you would have no problem with debating someone who may disagree with that system. Now that I am done with this debate, here is my proposition to you: (https://www.debateart.com/debates/3809-thbt-vote-4-is-an-insufficient-analysis-of-the-instigators-case).

First, I will state that I am not interested in any obfuscation here. I noticed you were already very hesitant to accept this animal agriculture debate. While satisfied that someone else I have been just as eager to debate took it, I am still very interested in debating you, and thankfully, you seem to have created a pertinent subject matter for an engagement. To this, I want a direct answer, not a dodge, not a tirade irrelevant my proposition. I don't want to be rude to you, but this specific expression is to control your previous behavior.

The rules prohibit anyone else from accepting this debate. It is either, yes, or no.

I am sure we can all agree that whiteflame exhibits incompetence regularly. This is honestly nothing surprising to me, I don't even understand why he is still a moderator. I am, regardless, satisfied that it was not enough to taint the outcome of this debate.

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@Bones

I’d like to see that change as well. As for imposing the two-day period, I think that might yield its own complications since a lot of people tend to wait until near the end of the voting period to vote. Maybe it’s worth the cost of losing those votes that happen in the last 48 hours, but I’d need to think on it.

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@RationalMadman

Why are you asking me to apologize for this when I was neither able to remove the vote as a voter on this debate nor had anything to do with Supa’s decision?

I’m more than willing to apologize if I’ve made a mistake, though you seem to think otherwise.

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@Bones

The dirty voters of the past actually helped oromagi secure some of his wins.

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@whiteflame

Stop making excuses.

This was absolutely vile play and you know it.

Any other user less active than me and even me myself easily is not there in the last 1.5 hours of a debate to revote. I bet he would he deleted the rfd too if I had not commented it.

You can never say sorry nor own up to a genuine mistake. Neither you nor Barney seems to possess this quality. Supa screwed up.

I'm not too bother in this instance as the ballot is unaffected by problematic votes, but I think this highlights the underlying issue of the current voting system. It's an issue which is blindingly easy to fix - just establish a time period between the last ballot that is allowed to be cast and subsequently the completion of the debate - say two days, where votes cannot be casted but moderators can impose judgement. If the site user is too busy to do this, moderators can send an announcement stipulating that, for any debate which is in voting period, no votes can be casted in the final two days (in spite of the fact that you physically can), and anyone who does receives harsh punishment. The latter is meant only to temporarily alleviate the issue.

I'm honestly surprised that the likes of Oromagi and Barny's streaks were not unjustly disrupted before their current records.

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@RationalMadman

Supa’s been busy, so whatever you may think of the timing of his removal, it wasn’t “dirty play”.

Both of those last minute votes would have been removed if possible, though their decisions to cast them likely would have happened regardless, since this debate has regularly been on the front page of recent debates. Both of them knew what they were doing.

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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame

While the dirty play got what I see as the correct result, I want you to realise that Supadudz's last minute vote moderating and me protesting it resulted in two votebombs.

Best Korea copy and pasted Bones' RFD.

If you had been responsible and this debate had stayed lower down the list of active debates, I doubt both would have struck.

Public choice's vote was neutralised by itself but Best Korea's could have swayed results especially if mine had stayed removed and if mine had been for Oromagi.

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@whiteflame
@Best.Korea

Not sure why you just copied the text of Bone's vote...?
With or without it I would have won the debate, but I don't know why you would even logically think of doing that.

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@Vader

No need, I have seen enough at this moment.

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@Novice_II

I am usually not in charge of votes so I do not know the format. Therefore if any other moderator wants to take charge of this case, feel free.

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@Undefeatable

Maybe I am on to something you don't see. What is your perspective here?

Indeed, this seems to have been orchestrated somehow.

(a) It seems that Barney removed his vote quietly and edited the source points, so his vote would not be removed alongside Rational Madman's. Peculiarly enough, this suggests that Barney knew his own vote did not meet the voting standards, and he cast it anyway which is interesting in its own right.
(b) SupaDudz only chose to review votes an hour before the debate ended, despite me having reported Barney's vote over 3 days ago. Why is that?
(c) SupaDudz did not even follow the typical format for vote removal. He did not mention anyone, he did not use the proper text format, and he did not even copy the text of RationalMadman's vote out. Not to mention, he deleted the vote quietly without even giving a reason, and then provided a rushed one after his tactic was pointed out. The goal here seems to have been to remove x vote without anyone knowing.

The moderators are acting very strange here (outside of their usual incompetence) and I very much agree with RationalMadman based on these three propositions. I am a bit disappointed in that sort of conduct. Why not just make debates fair?

Voter: RationalMadman

Vote: 3 for conduct, 2 for source,1 for conduct in favor of PRO

Status: Removed

Reasoning: Voter fails to provide a reason as to why the conduct presented in such statement should award the point to PRO, therefore, the justification of conduct point is not valid. Giving yourself an advantage by specific wordings DO NOT cause a conduct point. The voter also blatantly lies about sources used and purposefully avoids sources from oromagi for a bias toward the PRO. Therefore, due to the bias in regards to the vote, both of these are constitute under the retaliation vote, thus is against the rules

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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
@oromagi
@Novice_II

If I had been offline in the final 1.5ish hours of the debate, Supadudz's vote deletion of me would have won Oromagi the debate.

I recommend you to strongly consider what the fuck you have d9ne here. Stop rigging debates. Do not expect me to keep your corruption quiet.

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@Novice_II

I agree, however Whiteflame is extremely strict about these type of debate topics so I can see how he chose con, especially since oromagi is the type to think “Aha the debate is set in stone”. However Your display was the precise implication. The title was deceptive (Ex “a fetus is a person” complicated into the idea that the fetus has the personhood rights). I think a less trapping/strict title could have given more leeway, but also perhaps Oromagi would not have accepted. Since there is little way his style can win a debate as incredibly complex as abortion.

Most of the votes cast in my favor take considerations to logic and philosophy, and I for one see this as the only efficient way to judge debates. That being said, thanks to Bones, Undefeatable, and RationalMadman. There is a lot to say about some of the other particulars of this debate, but I will keep that to a little later.