Miracle claims are unlikely to be true.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
PRO will defend the position that miracle claims are unlikely to be true.
CON will defend that at least one miracle claim is likely to be true.
Miracles = a Divine intervention in the natural world
Frankly, I feel as though a lot of this debate just wasn't relevant to the topic.
Pro keeps talking about how news sources can come from stories that aren't real so they should all be taken with a grain of salt, though he never provides any reason to doubt this particular news source nor does he engage with the support for that news source. Even if I buy the grain of salt thing, it has no bearing on the resolution. If I slightly distrust the source, that doesn't mean that the miracle claim is untrue, that just means that there's some unknown possibility of it being untrue. If you want to argue that that possibility makes all miracle claims that appear in a news article improbable, then make that claim. I don't see it, so I don't see why this point matters.
And this kind of argumentation plagues Pro's initial round as well. He says that these don't happen often and that our daily experiences don't confirm their existence. The former is an argument from common knowledge, which isn't particularly relevant for this debate. Low probability doesn't invalidate all instances, yet that's the point Pro is trying to make. The odds of any single one of us existing are abysmally low, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. Moreover, giving me an overarching probability doesn't tell me anything about single instances, which become the focus of Con's argument. The latter argument is pure anecdote and, once again, fails to examine individual instances. Con is not required to show that it is probable that a certain portion of the population will experience miracles, yet Pro's argument solely focuses on that much bigger picture.
So that largely just leaves us with Con's arguments and his support thereof. It's never argued that the set of events that were said to occur in this instance actually occurred. Pro doesn't contest that any of what occurred here actually happened, and his arguments about appeals to authority don't affect that, either. Instead, he solely argues that there is a potential naturalistic explanation for why this boy could have survived. It's a viable option, but in order to argue this way, Pro had to show that it's the more plausible explanation for the boy's survival. That requires a good deal of 1-to-1 analysis, i.e. these are the set of circumstances the boy experienced, and those experiences mirror what we would expect to occur if the "dive reflex" was in play. Two problems: one, Pro doesn't provide clear evidence that such a reflex exists in humans, which Con points out is impossible to get without getting into immoral trials, and two, Pro doesn't establish that this other teenager who went through a similar experience either resulted from a dive reflex or even represents a comparable situation since, as Con points out, this person went into a coma and required extended life support. In other words, while a "dive reflex" may have been in play, Pro failed to establish that it exists in humans and that there's even a comparable circumstance that is likely to be explained by such a reflex.
So, I'm left with Con's version of events, where he says that the prayer must have acted in some way to address/prevent the resulting physical harms. I think that was entirely arguable, but Pro didn't make any arguments questioning how we would assess whether the prayer played an active role. Con relies on a sort of "prayer of the gaps" argument, saying that in the absence of an obvious medical/naturalistic reason for the child's survival and rapid recovery, we should attribute these to the known prayers that occurred. I personally don't find that argument compelling, but it's also the only explanation I'm given for what could have made this case different, and while I'm quite certain that others have prayed for the safety of a loved one in similar circumstances and failed to achieve these results, which may suggest that prayer is exceedingly unlikely to yield this kind of result, it was up to Pro to demonstrate that the prayer angle is improbable in this instance. Pro didn't do that, so I vote Con on arguments. And since Con also gives much deeper analysis of both his sources and their validity as well as Pro's sources and how well they apply in this debate, I also award him sources.
Thank you for the debate! It was great getting to talk about the supernatural in a respectable dialogue.
I will consider who won because I need to try and understand where exactly the burden-of-proof line is for both.
On your browser, under settings there's usually a button to switch to desktop view on a phone browser btw.
Idk about voting on this, honestly I don't see how Con is even a winnable position because the very nature of miracles is that they are unlikely to be miracles (they are unlikely to be at all and if they occur it can easily be 'luck').
I also don't like how hard you went on 'logical fallacies' when Pro genuinely didn't appeal to authority, if anybody committed fallacy it was you and your reliance on hearsay and subjective perception of events.
I don't see any aggression from Pro though, to be clear I think aggression is necessary to debate well.
Thanks for voting whiteflame!! RM, are you still going to vote on this one?
And on Oromagi, I agree it is really painful on phone browser, considering 90% of the time I am on my phone browser I have to agree that, to respond to his debates, I have to wait until the next time I am home and on my computer.
Idk if bullet points inherently makes a person a bad debater. But I don't think that was your main point anyways.
Idk who Oromagi was on DDO, so I have no idea if he was always like that or not. But, I tend to find with him that, if I'm not careful, I am suddenly defending straw man positions of my own arguments and such.
Ya know what might be an interesting debate?
RESOLVED: Oromagi Would Beat Bluesteel In A DebateArt Rated Debate
Thanks for voting!
His style of presenting his arguments is so comical, I am surprised people don't get headaches from the unreadable bullet points on a phone browser that on computer view still are an eyesore.
He bullet points, LITERALLY, he doesn't form paragraphs, lmao! His winrate is impressive as is his rating but his eloquence is one of the worst of all debaters that are competent here. I am amazed at his success level here with that style.
Thanks!
I’ll try to get to this one next.
I think it is because our methodologies for a good debater are different is all.
We disagree on oromagi's skill level as a debater but sure, I will look and vote.
I understand your concern. I try to be as objective as possible when I vote. Even though Orimagi and I, for instance, disagree on things, I still recognize he is a great debater and has successfully won the debates he won.
If you think I lost, simply tell me what I could have done better. If you think I won, then great lol.
Everyone can always learn!
Potentially ill show the physicalists how miracles are possible at a later date.
I don't want drama. I refuse to vote unless you promise no revenge voting if I vote against.
I have honestly got little interest on this debate so I am neutral now, not having an agenda. If you ask me to vote, I will then do so and be frank.
I have had a miracle or two happen in my life, curse type things too. I am also sure some lie and exaggerate, so I am neutral on this.
I guess nobody wants to vote on this debate. Sigh.
Thanks!
See: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-372-trillion-cells-in-your-body-4941473/
Can it, though? Or is it simply an explanation we don't know yet? Or is that what you meant?
Also, what source states there are 37.2 trillion cells in the human body? I would like to read it to know their methodology and see if it is sound or not.
To me, be the very definition of the laws of this universe, including those found via quantum physics, everything has an explanation.
The Human body has 37.2 trillion cells. Sometimes this can cause unexplained phenomena.
Vote bump
Also, comment if you are going to vote, just so I know.
By definition, a scientist would say that miracles can't exist, that we live in a rules-based universe, not that they are unlikely. Any phenomena can be explained because we live in a causally determined universe to the best of our knowledge. Everything has a first cause. We're just still figuring some of them out ;)