Instigator / Con
34
1737
rating
172
debates
73.26%
won
Topic
#3508
On balance, "you" ought to join the Jedi instead of the Sith [Read Description]
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 5 votes and with 28 points ahead, the winner is...
Intelligence_06
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
6
1511
rating
6
debates
25.0%
won
Description
"You" are a regular talented force-sensitive child, about 7 years of age, add or take away a couple years. Not necessarily Rey or Anakin leveled "talented" but enough that both the current sith master and the Jedi masters would like you to join them, which you exhibit neither preference to the light nor the dark side explicitly. The setting is that the rule of 2 exists in the Sith, meaning that there is one Sith master and one Sith apprentice and no more. The Jedi council is approximately what the Jedi council is like before the Clone Wars as the system is assumed to not change.
The SW Canon and Legends universe can be considered factual up to the first death of Darth Sidious, where the Rule of 2 apply. Disney Canon(7-9) is not Canon here as they sacrificed logic and coherency with the rest of the universe in trade of cinematic effects. "You" are supposed to exist in a time between those 2 sith lords(After Darth Bane), in the recent millenium before the battle of Yavin.
"You" refers to this fabricated being above setted unless quoted and specified to mean otherwise. Pro's BoP: "You" ought to join the Jedi instead of the Sith. Con's BoP: "You" ought to join the Sith instead of the Jedi. Middle ground arguments only shift the balance but only those cannot sufficiently back the BoP.
Dark Jedi, Gray Jedi, Inquisitors, and other groups of force users are not considered either Jedi or Sith.
Pro and Con set only for color and flavor. Good Luck.
Round 1
Thanks, That2User. May the force be with you.
S1: Purpose and Education
I maintain a view basically of Nihilism: that there is no inherent reason why we live, instead, the reason should be subjective to any individual instead of being fixed, as all established sets of philosophical ideas regarding an objective purpose of "us" can be questioned. Unless Pro proves there to be in fact an objective reason one lives for, the reason for life for everyone is thus treated as subjective, including Star Wars beings, which are as sentient as we are.
That is still a given that we still live for something. Some live for his own gains, other live for the safety of his family, etc. Now, let's look at what the Jedi does.
Jedi: Brainwash
The Jedi Order started training these kids young, usually no older than 5 years old. The Jedi council members track these kids down as early as after birth and take these children away from their parents, as early as the age of 3, as long as they are force sensitive. Then, they are to take the Jedi temple as their home and distilled "peaceful" values to those children, training them. It is like your first summer camp, except infintely long and dangerous. Not only that, you are pretty much discouraged to leave the order and get other jobs.[1]
There is a reason they are picked so young: so they can make the sacrifice that the order wanted them to have easier[2][3]. Essentially, it is brainwashing. The Jedi Order is essentially distilling their own interpretations of how one should live their life. Not only that, they were trained to suppress feelings.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.[1]
That is what the Jedi believes and tells young kids they recruited all the time. Essentially, you are supposed to be emotionless, have no attachments, and believe whatever the order tells you if you are in the Jedi Order. Wow, the Jedi not only brainwash kids, but brainwash kids to the entire point that they have nearly nothing to live for. Here, you would be discouraged to show your true self in trade of what the Jedi wants you to be, your self-esteem crushed and rebuilt by strangers, leading to a life more numb than a Sith would.
Not only that, you are not supposed to own anything, nor to have a family in the Jedi rules[1]. That is literally at odds with probably what many people wants or even lives for. So according to the Jedi, the fact you are sensitive to the force will lead to you living like a monk whether if you like it or not. If you don't like it, you have to like it. There.
Sith: Self-Growth
Now let's look at the Sith's approach.
Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.[4]
In general, not only the Sith does not suppress your self-esteem, they encourage it. Your own passion, if you join the Sith, will be what makes you strong. There is nothing stopping you to live your life: If anything, you alter your lifestyle to make yourself stronger, not because someone says it will be bad for you. You become the motivating factor, you push yourself, and not get pulled by a general set of fixed rule.
It is self-explanatory, well, because the Sith does not at all try to force you to change your mind. You try to change your mind not for a collective sense of honor, but for a less arbitrary reason: You will benefit from it. The Sith essentially channels your emotions, the Hate, the Anger, the Vengeance, which may come in one way or another, and use them, instead of avoid them like how the Jedi teaches you. Look at one example at Darth Vader, he has bottled up so much potential emotion that eventually it erupted and he became a Sith Lord[5]. There is a reason many great Jedi warriors, for example, Dooku, Anakin, Jacen Solo, Revan, flee to the Sith: Because the Sith accepts a wide range of worldview, whereas the Jedi implant their worldview onto people since they were kids, and their scope is very narrow that it is common for people to not being able to meet it due to how hard it is(keep in mind that kids are brought here forcefully, they don't know what's to come).
Besides, the Sith were allowed to hold other positions, namely Darth Sidious as the Chancellor and later the Emperor, and Tyranus(Dooku) as the head of the separatist confederacy. The Sith ought to be able to use any method they can to achieve their goal, and not restricted to any one way.
S2: Lack of Competition
Well, the Sith may brainwash children, but with the Rule of the Two, it ensures a 1-on-1 tutorship from the beginning, which is better than what Initiate Clans do[6], which the master teaches from the average of these kids in order to achieve efficiency. No, for the Sith, the training course is unique and custom from the beginning, so it is basically sure that the Sith education of young apprentices are more quality and less brainwashing.
Not only that, since there is only 1 Sith master at a given time, there is nothing to be negotiated between what shall be taught to the kid, and the Sith master can distill information 100% of his own ideology, as opposed to perhaps pieced from many others. You learn from a whole personalized ideology of a wise man, and you add onto that, creating a new and more well-thought-out ideology every generation.
So what you end up is a stream of generation of masters and appretices and the knowledge within for the Sith, and a complicated council-chatting and complicated weave of teachings for the Jedi. Which one is clearer? You choose.
After learning as initiates with the sacrifice of individuality in trade of efficiency, Jedis fight in front of masters in order to be picked as padawans and begin their 1-on-1 tutorship(algorithmically and traditionally, where others of the generation are doing the same thing). This is a process called Involution where not only the kids have to comply with what they are generally accepted that they should be while sacrificing the self and emotion, but the competition may even drag them away from thinking what they actually want. This could be demonstrated by the Chinese College Entrace Exam[7]. What do the Jedi Initiates get? 1-on-1 custom training, or what a sith gets from the start. Sure, Jedi has more competition, but is competition better? It is useless here.
[8]Red lightsabers could overpower other lightsabers.
[9]Despite having only 2 members, each member of the Sith could, on balance, kill many Jedi. The average sith is considered better than the average Jedi in magnitude.
The dark side is founded upon not channeling the Force, but rather, bending it to your will.[9]
Well said. You control the power as a Sith, and you don't get to do so as a Jedi.
[9] also mentions that, well, Sith lords don't hold on to the power for very long. Well, what is the point for holding the power for long? Do you want to not be able to defeat Sith lords anymore than simple disarming for 500 years, or do you want to be strong enough to slaughter Jedi like younglings for 50 years? You choose.
Essentially, the lack of competition of the Sith means they can be exposed to 1-on-1 custom tutoring earlier in life, or as older individuals(such as Dooku and Darth Vader), comply full and well what they are getting into(except Sidious is much more rotten than the average Sith, it should be his fault arguably). For Sith apprentices starting young, they are not brainwashed to Jedi-degree and are generally given a looser and broader possibility of what makes them stronger. In fact, if a Sith lord attempts to join the Jedi after puberty, chances are that he will not be able to join because the "normal" age for Jedi admission is 3-5, arguably for better brainwashing. That is how bad it is. Then look at the Sith who can accept apprentices at any age, their teachings are versatile enough that older individuals are simply accepted in without hesitation.
Catch
There is only 1 apprentice per master, where as there are several initiates per master[2]. Not only that, there are many masters(more than 12 arguably, since Qui-Gon Jinn's absence on the council still makes the seats filled), where as there is only 1 Sith lord who can arguably overpower most if not all Jedi masters. Being considered by the Sith lord himself is equivalent of being handpicked by Yoda as a padawan at a very early stage, and the likelihood of that is very little unless you are Anakin or Rey level talented and stand out. You will have an easier way of going to the top just due to the lack of competition as a Sith and you will on average have a less powerful Jedi Master if you join the Jedi. Look at the "least" powerful Jedi recorded here. For example, the most remarkable thing Coleman Trebor did was try to kill Dooku[10], but instead he got shot by Jango Fett straight on the ventral side and died. Being trained by the one and only Sith lord is definitely better for you than...this guy, I suppose.
Sources
- Jedi Code | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Jedi Initiate | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Why Jedi Have To Be Trained So Young (swtorstrategies.com)
- Code of the Sith | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Anakin Skywalker | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- Jedi Initiate Clan | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- ‘Gaokao’ 2020: The Rights and Wrongs of China’s Dreaded Exam (sixthtone.com)
- Sith lightsaber | Wookieepedia | Fandom
- https://may4bewithyou.com/are-siths-stronger-than-jedis/
- Coleman Trebor | Wookieepedia | Fandom
Your move.
"For a thousand years we have kept to the shadows, not afraid of the Jedi—but ourselves. The dark side is powerful. It is too powerful. The weak will meekly stand in regimented order. The Sith… One master. One apprentice. No more. For generations. Generations building to me."
―Darth Sidious, to Darth Vader[60]
In this, the Sith master may be so secret, so in the shadows, "You" may not even see, not even know the Sith master, not even know the Sith… with the Jedi being so prominent in presence the path of least resistance is to find and join the Jedi, since "You" will most likely find the Jedi "You" will most likely join the Jedi.
"A long, long time ago, there were many Sith. We rose up against the simpering light…we warred with the Jedi…and lost as we also warred amongst our own kind."―Darth Sidious, to Darth Vader[60]
"But there was a Sith Lord who survived the culling—the great Darth Bane. It was he who reshaped the Sith, creating a new hierarchy to ensure the survival of our Order. His Rule of Two dictated that only two Sith Lords could exist at any one time—a master to possess the unlimited power of the dark side and an apprentice to covet it." ―Darth Sidious[25]
The Rule of 2, if Sith and Sith Doctrine is known to “You”, is potentially the biggest reason why you don’t join the Sith, as the Apprentice will try to kill the Master, and the Master will try to replace the Apprentice, Sidious killed Plagueis to become Sith Lord, Sidious trained Dooku, having Anakin kill Dooku, Anakin became Vader, Sidious attempted to have Luke kill Vader, only to end up with Vader killing Sidious. The Rule of 2 means the life of “You” is constantly threatened by the Sith Lord, someone who is immensely overpowered compared to “You” to begin with and to survive you have to kill ‘Your” Master before he kills you. If you don’t want to be engaged in a personal war with the Sith Lord all “Your” life, don’t join the Sith.
The benefit of the Rule of 2 is personalized one on one training, but if you join the Jedi at an advanced age in Jedi training, it is highly likely a Jedi Master will personally train you as Qui-Gon Jin did to Anakin and later his Padawan 0bi-Wan upon his death.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.[24]
"Anger and pain are natural and part of growth. They give you focus. They make you strong."
―Darth Vader[24]
Round 2
The Dark side of the Force
The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. Let's not just get into "why", instead start with a few examples of abilities only Siths/dark side users can do.
- Force lightning
- "Healing"
- Qui-Gon was stabbed through the chest and...died. Maul was sliced through the midsection and...lived. Ironic.
- Then there is Sion, who binded himself with the dark side of the force when his body is no different from dead.
- Consciousness transfer
- Palpatine was able to be reborn and rule the Dark empire and Vitiate was reincarnated as Valkorion.
- Force choke
- Sith alchemy
Just to list a few. Not only that, your abilities are essentially molded from what you are, without yourself being molded forcefully by others. To most extreme examples, Darth Nihilus was power enough to kill everything on a planet with just the dark side of the force. We don't think you can just learn it, but that this is just an example to show how the Sith embrace and push individuality.
Then again, Palpatine was able to singlehandedly defeat 4 Jedi Masters simultaneously, 3 of them not while using Lightning and only one lightsaber. He then fended off Yoda shortly after. Sith martial arts fully encompasses the entirety of Jedi martial arts, with numerous more.
Serving a Corrupt State vs. Changing it
The Jedi are basically tools of the state, a corrupt one near . The republic actually has an order 66 which is baffling enough, since Jedi warriors which are trained directly on the capital of Coruscant are somehow then to be killed. Palpatine didn't create it, he merely used an existing tool. Otherwise, the Republic was full of bureucratic corruption within, in which even Chancellor Valorum didn't take full great action against them, or are merely ineffective. Ironically, it was Chancellor Palpatine, then-current Sith Master, who changed the system within to reduce bureaucracy that ultimately prevented the republic from getting stronger.
Remember that the "orthodox" way for a Sith-controlled regime is an Imperial one from the grounds up. Before the Sith are ready, they are technically politically independent. The fact that Palpatine changed the republic, rather than forming his own empire from the ground up, just goes to show you how badly the state the Jedi are serving is.
And if you are from the High republic Era, then you focus on your training and getting stronger without worrying about politics. On the other hand, since the Jedi order recruits all kinds of force-sensitive children from the galaxy and the Jedi are basically a subsidiary of the galactic government, it means that the fact you are force-sensitive would mean you are bound to become a tool of the state.
And what do you do in the high republic period as a Jedi? Nothing. You just focus on keeping being yourself, or sorry, the person the teachings want you to be. The Sith were believed to be extinct until Maul and Sidious, so at this point the Jedi is basically a monastery with a side of ceremonial armed police force, since there is no major threat. The teachings of the Jedi would technically be disconnected from realspace so much that you are no more than a mannerful diplomat with hidden powers if you are in the Jedi. Not even restating the fact that there is a high council of the Jedi too, so you can't just be yourself and go with it even if you don't need to do anything.
That is different from the Sith, where your teachings are if anything practical. They are aiming to restore their former glory, and they could be ready at any minute. In this case, your skills of combat may actually be used. Being born in such a period before Sidious and after Bane, you would be more useful to yourself(aka having more to do) as a Sith than a Jedi, thus fulfilling your potential purpose. And to show you one more difference, Obi-wan Kenobi was KILLED by an armor-bound Vader in a span of 10 years(From Kenobi EP.6 to OT EP.4) when before he could at least tie against his former padawan. In contrast, Palpatine, who is already in his sixties, could kill 4 Jedi masters on the spot after over a decade of being a politician and not really dueling.
Accepting disobedience
How did the Jedi do it? https://youtu.be/6-8OLBxadIQ Anakin won the lightsaber duel, but got scolded. Why? Because as a Jedi, ambition and passion for victory is reprehensible. The very things, which are essentially what many people live for, are what are being encouraged in the Sith code. What is next? Thou shalt be peaceful within and accepteth the death granted upon a Lord of the Sith?
On the other hand, the Sith did accept disobedience, well, in a certain way. In Maul's training, where he used a technique he shouldn't have used, his master reacted:
Sidious, though furious at Maul's disobedience, explained that Maul wasn't "entirely to blame." The dark side could make the Sith want to unleash its power in their time of secrecy.
Or, in casual terms, "You can do it all night, just not now." This is opposed to the Jedi way of "If I say you can't, then you can't do it for an indefinitely long period." There is a reason that Palpatine waited more than a decade as the head of the Republic before transforming it to an empire, and there is a reason the Jedi were so conservative. Eventually the Sith won, not the Jedi.
REBUTTALS
In this, the Sith master may be so secret, so in the shadows, "You" may not even see, not even know the Sith master, not even know the Sith… with the Jedi being so prominent in presence the path of least resistance is to find and join the Jedi, since "You" will most likely find the Jedi "You" will most likely join the Jedi.
No. The description states that the current Sith Lord literally wants you to join.
...that both the current sith master and the Jedi masters would like you to join them...
Simply that the average force-sensitive kid won't be chosen by the Sith, because there are and will be 2 of them and no more. If anything, the Sith master would just find you like how they found Maul. Your degree of talent would be tremendous upon joining the Sith which you will become your personal fighter, your special skills morphed onto your essence, with you pushing yourself to be stronger through the dark side of the force and self-love and motivation. Being a Jedi and become every other Jedi master upholding the same old rules which stripped you of you and for some reason forcefully serving a nation that probably doesn't need you is in itself an insult to how talented you really are. The Jedi are for Normies, basically.
The Rule of 2, if Sith and Sith Doctrine is known to “You”, is potentially the biggest reason why you don’t join the Sith, as the Apprentice will try to kill the Master, and the Master will try to replace the Apprentice, Sidious killed Plagueis to become Sith Lord, Sidious trained Dooku, having Anakin kill Dooku, Anakin became Vader, Sidious attempted to have Luke kill Vader, only to end up with Vader killing Sidious. The Rule of 2 means the life of “You” is constantly threatened by the Sith Lord, someone who is immensely overpowered compared to “You” to begin with and to survive you have to kill ‘Your” Master before he kills you. If you don’t want to be engaged in a personal war with the Sith Lord all “Your” life, don’t join the Sith.
First, that is not how it works. If the master desperately wants to kill the apprentice immediately, then the Sith would simply die out. Secondly, Sidious is a special case, where he is born in a period where the Republic is so close to falling that this is the best route for the Sith to survive: To seize control of the dominant power and make it an empire. In the better part of history, most Sith lords had 1(one) apprentice, which is what you are most likely to get. Plus, even if you will die, you are possibly powerful enough to kill Jedi like B1 droids.
No Sith master would kill their apprentice without them doing anything. On the contrary, the Jedi will likely live long and do nearly nothing for the better part of your life. You are almost guaranteed to get strong enough to even be disposed of the Sith, because before that they would be training you. It took Vader, for example, the entire duration of the Empire. In that case, you would still be at least as strong as a Jedi master.
The benefit of the Rule of 2 is personalized one on one training, but if you join the Jedi at an advanced age in Jedi training, it is highly likely a Jedi Master will personally train you as Qui-Gon Jin did to Anakin and later his Padawan 0bi-Wan upon his death.
Anakin was the OLDEST to join the Jedi in a while, and that is still because he is More talented that anyone else in more than a thousand years. Unless you have been prophesized to be the chosen one, it is highly unlikely they will even pick you, as Mace Windu simply refused to accept him in. Finding someone to train unconditionally someone who is a few years behind is not easy.
On the other hand, the Sith accepts all ages. A hot-headed 23 year old Anakin and a bearded Dooku can convert just fine without being an adult.
Conclusions
- The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
- The Jedi serves a state that does not need them.
- The Sith are more accepting of being oneself.
- The Sith's martial arts are more practical than Jedi's.
- Dropped:
- The "Self", its suppression from the Jedi and embracement from the Sith;
- Involution and subpar optimization for the Jedi;
- Better resources and custom curriculum for the Sith;
- The Sith are just on average stronger than the Jedi;
- The Dark side of the force is the stronger side(It is the easier side as well, but useful nevertheless);
- The Jedi brainwashes young children.
- Overall, I think the joining the Sith is overall better for "you" due to these reasons above. I advise voters to carefully read this debate and cast votes fairly. Other than that, vote CON!
...........................................................................................
Forfeited
Round 3
It's over, That2User, I have the High Ground. Also you can't just force jump and slice me in half in the last round because creating new arguments in R3 is reprehensible and worth deducting conduct. In the end, there are many dropped points still without a contended response. Vote CON.
Send me a 2nd debate, I will not forget our battle this time, same opening argument will do nicely
Sadly, I no longer hold this opinion anymore. I can however put up the same topic with me as Pro and you as Con.
Even when one believes in a might is right philosophy, or that greed or self interest is good for the individual, ought be pursued. . .
Seems to me little reason to 'preach such, or encourage said philosophy in others.
One benefits most by others being altruistic, while oneself is selfish,
Secretly breaking one's own word whenever beneficial, while always trusting others to keep theirs.
Course, that's only 'if said philosophy actually 'is good for oneself,
Are many other arguments that being straight and honest, right by others is good for oneself, 'other than in the sense of the group, but for the individual as well.
Truly unhappy some would argue, are those unable to emphasize or do right.
Like Barry HBO or Homelander (The Boys)
I believe it's fair to say that both the Jedi and the Sith have advantages and disadvantages. Too much emotion from the Sith, and too much repression from the Jedi.
"I fact Darth Maul was an abomination tonthe Sith order."
I don't think so. Maul wasn't technically a Sith until Plagueis died. There can be more than 2 dark side users at a time, it is just only 2 of them are Sith.
Maul was never big on strategy anyway.
I fact Darth Maul was an abomination tonthe Sith order.
Palatine was a Sith Apprentice who had his own apprentice... he had to murder his Sith Lord to take the throne but already had violated the order.
Uh oh, I think I might have set the bound too low. 10,000 won't be enough at this rate.
I'm /in
I would have been a gray Jedi for sure.
"I'm gonna be a Jedi, that's all my eyes can see
Victory is mine, yeah surprisingly
I've been laying, waiting for your next mistake
I put in work, and watch my status escalate"
-Gang Starr ft Big L
Fun topic!
Don't know a lot about the Jensaarai or those other factions, but proving that "you" ought to join any of them (or even the Jedaii) fulfills no one's BoP.
This will be very interesting to read. I actually agree that if this is the era of Jedi that is being talked about that the Sith is better, though I would say joining Jensaarai (or even the Teepo/Gray Paladins) would probably be better than either the Jedi or Sith at this point. I am interested in seeing how Pro (whoever that ends up being) will make their case.