Instigator / Pro

ADudeWithIce

1493

rating

debates

0.0%

won

Topic

#3485

Space Combat: Carriers are better than dreadnoughts

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 4 votes and with 25 points ahead, the winner is...

Intelligence_06

Tags

Games

Parameters

Publication date: 06.16.2022 05:03AM
Last updated date: 07.22.2022 07:26AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Intelligence_06

1737

rating

172

debates

73.26%

won

Description

Carriers: A space craft that can launch spacecraft such as fighters, bombers, or interceptors
Dreadnoughts: A large and heavily armored spacecraft with a main battery of large-caliber or hard-hitting guns

Round 1

ADudeWithIce

06.18.2022 05:32AM

Pro

Forfeited

Intelligence_06

06.18.2022 06:44AM

Con

Thanks, ADudeWithIce.

PRO has defined "Dreadnought" and "Carrier".

Carriers: A space craft that can launch spacecraft such as fighters, bombers, or interceptors
Dreadnoughts: A large and heavily armored spacecraft with a main battery of large-caliber or hard-hitting guns

CON accepts these definitions.

CON1: Dreadnoughts can be Carriers, vice versa

PRO has widened the range to consideration to not only one franchise but to all that applies:

Not for a specific game or movie but in general.

Therefore, consideration on behalf of STAR WARS(Legends and Canon), should count.

CON1.1: Anaxes War College System

PRO only says "Big" in the description for dreadnoughts, but refuses to provide a scale of how big one ship must be. CON finds a useful scale in the Star Wars universe and will present here.
The Anaxes War College System was a fictional classification system used in the Star Wars Series, as it was said to be created by an in-universe military institute called the Anaxes War College. There are 7-classifications to what a spaceship is.

Ships 100-200 meters are Corvettes.
Ships 200-400 meters are Frigates.
Ships 400-600 meters are Cruisers.
Ships 600-1000 meters are Heavy Cruisers.
Ships 1000-2000 meters are Star Destroyers.
Ships 2000-5000 meters are Battlecruisers.
Ships 5000+ meters are Dreadnoughts.

Keep in mind that one Imperial Meter in the SW Universe is roughly as long as one meter IRL.

Therefore, any ship that is over 5000 meters and possess heavy durable armor and heavy artillery should be considered a dreadnought.

There are some exceptions to the rule. For example, the Harrower-class Dreadnought, although only 800 meters long, is still classified as a dreadnought due to them being the largest ships in the Sith Imperial Navy at the time when they were invented.

CON1.2: Examples of Dreadnoughts that are also Carriers.

By proving that Dreadnoughts can also be Carriers, the topic statement is thus proven FALSE.

At any one given moment and nothing more, any given object A is not better than A itself, as A=A when both are considered from the same time.
If CON proves that dreadnoughts can also be carriers, that would mean some carriers are equal to their respective dreadnoughts(which are just themselves) and NOT better, which means the topic statement that is a relatively universal statement would thus be proven false. The topic statement did not state what carriers and what dreadnoughts should be compared, and there has been no attempts to distinguish the two, therefore this method of proof is thus valid unless PRO criticizes with valid reasoning.

CON1.2.1: Executor-class Star Dreadnought

The Executor-class Dreadnought was fairly well-known. Darth Vader commanded the first of its kind while the second, the Lusankya was used as an underground prison on Coruscant before it was demanded to fly.
The Executor-class was 19,000 meters long, so it is long enough to be a dreadnout.
The class of dreadnoughts not only has "a" main battery, but it has 2000 heavy turbolaser cannons and 250 heavy ion cannons. They are also equipped with KDY Shield generators and their hull is made of reinforced steel, which definitely stands even heavy gunfire. The Executor class qualifies as a dreadnought.
The Executor-class can carry at least 144 TIE-series starfighters and at most, thousands of them. The TIE-series starfighters include TIE bombers, TIE interceptors, TIE fighters, TIE defenders, etc. The Executor-class satisfy both as being a dreadnought and a carrier.

CON1.2.2: Eclipse-class Star Dreadnought

The Eclipse-class can carry approximately 600 TIE bombers and 96 TIE interceptors, thus qualify at being a carrier.
The Eclipse-class is 17,500 meters long, long enough for being a dreadnought.
The Eclipse-class does technically has "a main battery of hard-hitting guns" due to it literally having a superlaser. Other large guns also exist, for example, 500 heavy laser cannons. In addition to its firepower, the Eclipse-class's hull armor and shields were so strong that it could ram enemy ships without hesitation. Thus, the Eclipse-class qualifies both as a dreadnought and a carrier.

CON1.2.3: Harrower-class Dreadnought

The Harrower-class is long enough to be qualified as a dreadnought for special reasons stated in CON1.2.
The Harrower-class has heavily-reinforced hull plating and 32+ heavy turbolaser cannons.
The Harrower-class has hangars which house on a regular basis 95 starfighters. Therefore, the Harrower-class is both a dreadnought and a carrier.

CON1.2.4: Mandator IV-class Siege Dreadnought

The Mandator IV was 7,669 meters long, long enough to be a dreadnought.
The Mandator IV was equipped with 2 orbital cannons which dwarfed any other weapon on the ship and can destroy planets upon 2 shots. That is exactly what CON calls heavy artillery. The Mandator IV was also equipped with armor and deflector shield generators.
The Mandator IV can carry an unknown amount of First Order TIE Fighters, which are basically the successors to the Imperial TIE Fighters mentioned above. Thus, the Mandator IV both qualify as a carrier and a dreadnought.

CON1.3: Conclusion

CON has proven that some dreadnoughts are also carriers, therefore disproving the topic statement. The statement that "Carriers are better than Dreadnoughts" is proven false.
PRO has forfeited one round, this is bad conduct.

Round 2

ADudeWithIce

06.20.2022 06:44AM

Pro

Forfeited

Intelligence_06

06.20.2022 07:05AM

Con

PRO has dropped every point CON has made. CON extends all the points made in R1.

Round 3

ADudeWithIce

06.22.2022 07:05AM

Pro

Forfeited

Intelligence_06

06.22.2022 07:26AM

Con

PRO has forfeited every round. CON has presented a proof why the topic resolution is not true. Vote CON!

RationalMadman

06.16.2022 10:37AM

-->

@ComputerNerd

O is not a

A is not o

Intelligence_06

06.16.2022 07:03AM

-->

@ComputerNerd

Ironically, the "Dreadnaught-class" heavy cruiser is not a dreadnought at all, as all dreadnoughts are classified to be more than 5,000 meters long in SW universe.

ComputerNerd

06.16.2022 06:43AM

-->

@RationalMadman

"The Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser, or simply the Dreadnaught, was a type of capital ship built for planetary occupation and space combat used by the Galactic Republic, Galactic Empire, New Republic, local governments, and various other organizations."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dreadnaught-class_heavy_cruiser

RationalMadman

06.16.2022 05:51AM

-->

@ComputerNerd

Dreadnought is even more specifically naval than battleship...

ComputerNerd

06.16.2022 05:49AM

-->

@RationalMadman

Fairly certain they meant it in a broader sense, like fighter jets or hub ships or something...

RationalMadman

06.16.2022 05:46AM

-->

@ComputerNerd

I'm not sure that battleships work in outer space but sure...

ComputerNerd

06.16.2022 05:23AM

-->

@RationalMadman

Now it's dreadnoughts...

I'm just imagining a tiny battle carrier vs a huge spacecraft bigger than a city smh.

RationalMadman

06.16.2022 05:09AM

Space war...

battleship...

I can't believe someone will even think to take Con...

Barney

07.17.2022 09:24PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Forfeiture.

RationalMadman

07.17.2022 08:42PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

FF......................................

oromagi

07.17.2022 08:07PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Full forfeit- CON's full effort here sets a good example

ComputerNerd

06.22.2022 07:57AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Full Forfeit