goku would beat superman if they had a hypothetical combat governed by the powers and abilities of both in addition to the rules of dc and dragon ball.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
firstly i mean random physical combat, goku is not going to beat superman in a game of chess, secondly i am using post crisis version of superman and akira toriyama version for goku, i am not going Let's talk about pre-crisis superman, superman one million, superman's cosmic armor (which is actually a fusion between superman and ultraman) or superman milk.
The feats that superman achieved in crossovers with marvel are not valid (I don't want to see anyone saying superman > thanos) nor those achieved in alternate universes to prime earth (so you can get rid of all the feats of injustice), neither is any validity goku anti-feat that has happened in the anime, and only those that happened in the manga of toriyama and toyotaro will be valid.
- Goku's mechanics rely on energy releases that are practically solar and this will directly empower Superman. This means that the faster Goku tries to end the fight, the faster Superman reaches apex power.
- Superman is almost god-level in terms of how invulnerable he is, Goku's powers are primarily all offensive, so if Goku tries to avoid problem 1 by dragging the fight out, he is about to realise that Superman can chip him away bit by bit and exhaust him while Superman remains entirely invulnerable and steady in energy levels and temperament.
Invulnerability is the ability to be immune or highly resistant to one or more forms of physical damage or injury. Kryptonians possess this ability due to their exposure to the effects of a Yellow Sun and on a planet with weaker gravity. They possess a dense molecular structure unlike humans, strengthened by a supercharged bio-electric aura. A natural by-product of this ability for Kryptonians is that they are even invulnerable after death, greatly slowing down decomposition. Aside from them, other Metahumans and Aliens possess varying degrees of this power.
- Superman - While exposed to Earth's yellow sun at the peak of his abilities, Superman is virtually indestructible. He is immune to damage by blunt-force trauma, high-caliber bullets, piercing weapons, extreme temperature, atmospheric re-entry and exposure to the vacuum of space, extraterrestrial weaponry, falls from great heights and massive explosions. Such things can only manage to push back or stun him, but cannot actually injure him.
To be clear, Superman doesn't technically have a specific magic vulnerability. He is not MORE vulnerable to magic than other people. It's just that he has no special defenses against magic, and thus, something that would magically affect a typical person would also affect Superman. Sometimes, writers (especially Justice League of America writers) so desperate for something to slow Superman down would often act as if magic was a special problem for Superman. It is not.
The Man of Steel is one of the strongest heroes in the DC Universe, but Superman is also one of the fastest - even fast enough to dodge Darkseid’s dreaded Omega Beams. Super speed is one of Superman’s most useful skills, dating back to some of his earliest appearances. And his latest feat proves that he’s much faster than a speeding bullet.
Derived from the Omega Effect, these beams are capable of disintegrating their targets or even sending them back through time, and they’re widely considered the most dangerous weapons in Darkseid’s arsenal. They’re infamous for being incredibly fast and nearly impossible to dodge. Superman is no slowpoke, but Justice League: Last Ride #4 by Chip Zdarksy and Miguel Mendonça puts into context just how quickly the Last Son of Krypton can move.
But perhaps his most visceral vision -- and his most dangerous -- is his heat vision. Capable of blasting concentrated beams of intense heat and light from his eyes, heat vision has proven to be one of Superman's most effective -- and brutal -- abilities over the years.Perhaps the most useful attribute of Superman's heat vision is its sheer versatility. Superman's heat vision has been used in various ways over the years, ranging from precise cuts -- such as his recent use of it in DCeased: Hope at World's End to sever Black Adam's vocal cords so could no longer summon the power of Shazam --to absolutely overwhelming displays of force, like when he unleashed a blast so powerful in Superman/Batman #10 that it wiped out an entire army of Doomsday clones. The beams are hot enough to melt metal with ease, giving him an easy ability to repair ripped apart structures or cut through tough surfaces. He can also utilize it to reduce an empowered being to average with a specific, and invasive use of the heat vision: a heat vision lobotomy.In "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?" from Action Comics #775 by Joe Kelly, Doug Mahnke, Lee Bermejo, and Rob Schwager, Superman finds himself confronted with the Elite, a band of new brutal superheroes led by the telekinetic Manchester Black who have no problems executing villains. Despite Superman's pleas, the Elite continue to antagonize him and even try to kill him on the Jovian moon of Io. With no other choice, Superman seemingly kills most of the Elite before using his heat vision and x-ray vision to precisely cut through Manchester Black's brain, giving him a minor lobotomy and removing his access to the lobe that granted him his super-powers.
Superman can travel 186,000 miles per second, and if needed he can travel at a speed a thousand times higher than that. Superman’s reaction time is less than 1 attosecond, which is 1×10−18 of a second.To better understand Superman’s speed, let us see how he compares against planes and rockets.For a rocket to successfully reach the orbit around the Earth, it needs to have a minimum speed of 17,600 miles per hour.And if the rocket wants to escape Earth’s gravity it needs to travel at 25,000 miles per hour. That’s equal to running across 440,000 football fields, which has a length of 0.57 miles, per hour. That’s insane.Cheetah, the fastest animals on earth, has only a speed of 74.56-67.73 kilometers per hour. So we can save time, by avoiding the debate whether or not any animal from planet Earth can outpace Superman.With The New 52, which was a relaunch of all ongoing DC comics back in 2011, we got to see Superman travel faster than the speed of light. This relaunch came at the end of the Flashpoint crossover storyline.In that new storyline, based on a post-crisis universe, we saw Superman fly from Vega to planet Earth within 10-15 minutes.Given that the distance between these two planets was over 25 light-years, it leaves us with a rough estimation of Superman’s speed – which is 52 Million times faster than the speed of light.Along with flying at almost infinite speed, there is one more important superpower Superman has, and that is to travel at the absence of solar energy. There is a popular belief that Superman uses solar power to recharge himself, which is true.But if anyone forms the argument that Superman can’t function without solar energy, it’s not a valid statement. We have seen Superman travel through the emptiest of cosmic spaces, where it was completely dark and cold.Which only proves one thing. Superman is capable of storing enough solar power for later use. He can go without sunlight for years, and yet his superpowers will not dwindle.In the 2017 DC movie, Justice League, we have seen how even time stands still for Superman. After Superman is brought back to life, he bursts into the sky as soon as he resurrects. He flies to the city center in front of a tombstone.At this point, the other members of the Justice League were finding it hard to calm him down. And given that, Cyborg’s defense mechanism fired at Superman, as it identified him as a potential threat, makes things only worse.So Flash decided to use his superpowers, which is his speed, to control the situation. But as he approaches Superman, he realizes that Superman is maintaining eye contact with him. As if time was standing still for him.To others, Flash was invisible, thanks to his speed. But Superman knew where he was, what speed he was traveling at, and where he was headed.But what makes him so fast. Simple. Superman can increase his powers by recharging him using solar powers. A simple yellow star can help him reach unlimited speeds. We can only imagine how fast he can travel through the universe if he uses solar power from a Blue, White, or a Quasar.
Just How Hard Can Superman Actually Punch, Then?YouTube user Vsauce3 did some calculations to try and figure out exactly how hard Superman can punch. He argues that the strength of the punch is determined by the force and the acceleration of his fist as it moves through the air. It is also established that the laws of physics say that it couldn't be moving faster than the speed of light – so the speed of the hand is set at 1% lower than this at 99% the speed of light. Doing the calculation reveals that the punch would have a force of 190 quadrillion joules. To put that into terms that you can get your head around, it is the equivalent of 45 megatons of TNT or almost 3,000 nuclear bombs that could potentially be hitting you right in the kisser. You Wouldn’t Even See The Punch ComingWhat makes a punch from the Man of Steel even scarier is that you would never even see it coming. This is because it takes a certain amount of time for the brain to process any light than enters through the retina. While the common thought has been that it can take up to 100 milliseconds for this to happen, recent research has shown that people are capable of recognizing images after an exposure of just 13 milliseconds.That time period is completely insufficient for a person to see something moving in front of them. At 1% the speed of light, Superman’s punch would reach your face in less than 3 nanoseconds. He's operating at 99% of the speed of light. The human victim wouldn’t even be able to tell what had happened before they had already been hit.- A Punch That Powerful Would Create A Lot Of Heat
The energy transferred from such a powerful force being created would release an unimaginable amount of heat. According to Vsauce3, this figure would be an astonishing 80 trillion Kelvin. Considering that the sun itself is only around 15 to 16 million Kelvin at its core, that makes it a lot hotter than anything else in the solar system. In fact, the punch would create a heat blast that was some 5 million times hotter than the sun. It’s no wonder then that the punch would require the calorific equivalent of 82 billion Big Macs.- Everything In The Surrounding Area Would Be Destroyed
A full-force punch from Superman would not just be bad for you. It would cause mass devastation to everything and everyone around it. The sheer amount of energy released from the fist moving through the air would cause the particles in the air to fuse together. This nuclear fusion event would release gamma rays and even more energy, causing a huge explosion and shockwave that would flatten anything in its path.- If You Didn’t Disintegrate, Superman Would Punch Your Head Straight Off
If an unfortunate victim was able to withstand the intense physical forces enough to not break down at the atomic level, Superman would still leave a pretty big mess. Just imagining that he pulled his punches enough not to create a massive nuclear explosion, he would still be powerful enough to punch straight through a skull. The victim’s head would travel so quickly that it would snap off. Meanwhile, the Man of Steel would be pushed into the ground at it crushed beneath him from the recoil.
I dislike URL shorteners, largely because I can judge a lot about a source from the URL. Further, if I want to go back afterwards to review sources, it's nice to tell them apart at a glance.
What is wrong with tinyurl, I can just cut down hyperlinked text for even shorter character count.
FYI, the whole point about the infinite void being a space of infinite size is never held up in the show. What we see is validation that the whole World of Void is shaking, but despite the name, no one ever says it's actually infinite in size. Worse yet, the use of infinite is a mistranslation of a Japanese word meaning eternity, which is a measure of time, not occupied space. That makes it really difficult to come to any conclusions regarding what shaking this space actually means.
"It seems that what you wanted to discuss and what you actually argued differ."
It could be, I'm still learning English, sites like this don't exist in Spanish.
"Just look at how many great Goku attacks are on your R1 and R2."
the only great attack is hakai, the power clash with bills used a very small fraction of power.
"I see talking about his big reality erasure attack, not his most powerful triple erase attacks or whatever."
that was literally the only "big attack", and as my opponent demonstrated, it is indeed a weak attack.
"I see the defense of a different type of attack (ki) but not the people's dust energy attack that you built your arguments on."
I never built my arguments on hakai, that was a secondary argument, and I said it several times.
"On sourcing, I really don't like that your opponent used tinyurl, but there ends up being sources like https://fictionhorizon.com/how-fast-is-superman/ vs https://ibb.co/Fz7Tdth where you don't I do. I understand what is supposed to be going on, and this one I specifically referred to https://ibb.co/d5n7kyY in which Gogeta SSB is just some random guy making a statement. The difference in quality here is overwhelming ."
There is a reason why my opponent never questioned my source, and that is, because I showed another source much better than my opponent's, the anime:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dl1iqKUZfDsk&ved=2ahUKEwiuyufh0L34AhU1K0QIHZGEBnYQwqsBegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3kTJ8-gPeq4lqPzMwLGWKU
It sounds like what you meant to argue, and what you actually argued differ. Just look at how many big Goku attacks are in your R1 and R2. I see talk of his big erase people from reality attack, not his more powerful triple erase people or whatever attacks. I see defense of a different attack type (ki), but not the turn people to dust energy attack you built your arguments on.
On sourcing, I really dislike that your oppoment used tinyurl, but there ends up being sources like https://fictionhorizon.com/how-fast-is-superman/ vs https://ibb.co/Fz7Tdth where I don't understand what is supposed to be happening, and this one which I specifically referenced https://ibb.co/d5n7kyY which Gogeta SSB is just some random guy making an assertion. The quality difference here is overwhelming.
Not so sure I agree, but I get your point.
" I think focusing on what each of them has managed to tank in terms of hits at their best is a good choice, but you really have to scale those carefully, which yeah, does take time and research to do. I do think there's a good amount of evidence supporting Superman coming out on top in this matchup, but I also believe there's a case to be made for Goku managing this, it's just more of an uphill battle."
Actually the uphill battle is for Superman if it comes to tanking hits. Goku is more a lower IQ hypertank, Superman is an insanely fast dodger who has a reaction time almost like speed of light itself. The key is Superman's dodging, not what he can tank (both are extreme but reaction time and dodging is more extreme)
A lot of what I know on Superman I learned second-hand (never been much of a comic reader and I've only got some basics under my belt for movies and TV shows), but I've watched plenty of DBZ, DBGT (unfortunately), and DBS, so I likely had more insight into Goku as a character than I do Superman.
That being said, these fantasy versus matches that cross universes are always a little iffy. Both of these characters have become much stronger over even the restricted runs that Untotalgenio uses, so comparing them to single match-ups is going to be tricky. I think focusing on what each of them has managed to tank in terms of hits at their best is a good choice, but you really have to scale those carefully, which yeah, does take time and research to do. I do think there's a good amount of evidence supporting Superman coming out on top in this matchup, but I also believe there's a case to be made for Goku managing this, it's just more of an uphill battle.
Thanks for your vote.
I didn't watch DBZ or Superman in-depth and even if I did, remembering and referring to specific movies, comics and the events in them would take so much work and not really be worth it for me.
Prior to accepting, I searched some things about this clash and the vast majority backed Superman. That was when I reckoned that I had the easier side.
It's your vote, and you can vote for whoever you want, however I don't agree with you:
1: I never said that goku would launch his most powerful attack from the beginning, I said that any one of his weakest attacks would be enough to destroy superman.
2: You claim my source is a random guy, however my opponent quoted a youtuber, whose statements carry no more weight than my source, because my source (as well as my opponent's) is based on the manga.
3. The claim that goku's attacks would recharge superman like a super sun was completely refuted, my opponent didn't even respond to these arguments.
4. In the entire debate there was no evidence that superman's heat vision could hurt goku, in fact I gave a lot of evidence to the contrary.
thanks for your vote, the thing is that he kept lying about Goku.
Goku needs to charge before his Qi based moves.
I had nothing more to add in final round but yeah my bad for not posting. There was truly barely anything to add. vote as you see fit.