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Topic
#3461
The false doctrine of the trinity and baptism
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The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...
Conservallectual
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- 5
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1417
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Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
Let's try something different. This goes to any of you out there that may have dabbled with biblical interpretation.
Can you prove only with bible, chapter and verse that the scriptures teach and say there is a divine trinity , Father , Son and Holy Ghost? Can you read that? Can you help us read and show of the divine three persons, three personalities, three distinct deities?
Can you prove alone with book, chapter and verse that one can be saved being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?
To the letter verbatim, within the letter or epistle(s) , can all of these things be proven?
If so, please attempt to do so with scripture alone.
Let us learn and edify.
Round 1
What is the scripture, book , chapter and verse that says there is a divine trinity?
I say there is no scripture for it.
Likewise with baptizing in a name other than the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved .
There has to be scripture that says and teaches these things to avoid this violation below.
In the book of Proverbs chapter 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
So a person knowing that they're saying something that the scriptures haven't said is actually a liar.
Let's go to work in the scriptures.
The trinity is an overlay term for a complicated relationship between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. Here are some verses:
Jesus says in John 10:30: I and My Father are one
The Trinity of God consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used.
Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
Isaiah 48:16 - "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit."
1 Corinthians 8:6 - Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Colossians 1:15-16: The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him
John 1:1-3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
As for baptism:
Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 22:16 - And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
Round 2
"The trinity is an overlay term for a complicated relationship between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. "
Is this overlay term written in the scriptures where we can read it?
Also does it say, can we read in the scriptures that being baptized in a name other than in the name of Jesus Christ saves ?
You gave the book of Acts which supports baptism in the name of the Lord.
"The trinity is an overlay term for a complicated relationship between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. "Is this overlay term written in the scriptures where we can read it?Also does it say, can we read in the scriptures that being baptized in a name other than in the name of Jesus Christ saves ?You gave the book of Acts which supports baptism in the name of the Lord.
Kid, I already gave you verses in r1. Also if we have to read the exact word trinity then we could say that a "a wooden instrument with a hollow body, a neck, frets, 6 strings" is not a guitar because we didn't call it that(even if it does sound like the instrument is a guitar).
Round 3
In other words, we have no scriptures to read verbatim that there is a divine trinity and likewise nothing for being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that we'd be SAVED under.
See if we're able to read it, we don't have to argue over interpretations. We're not adding to scriptures. We're not reading into them. This is how we verify all is true to the letter within the letter .
In other words, we have no scriptures to read verbatim that there is a divine trinity and likewise nothing for being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that we'd be SAVED under.
Although I was raised Catholic(though I have a more evangelical protestant theology now but I still attend Catholic churches), I do not fully believe that baptism is required for salvation. However, baptism is still one of the most important rituals in Christianity. The trinity is real and is in the bible. The Hebrew bible/Old testament often says that God said "let us". For example:
Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”"
Instead of saying "I will" God says "let us", We can say that there are other gods, but this would not be biblical since God is the only god(Deuteronomy 6:4). We can also say that angels helped God, but angels cannot create living things like God can.
There is also a weird character in the bible called "the angel of the lord", which is an angel in the bible that appears to several characters(Like Abraham and Sarah) and speaks like he is God. This character has been thought of as a Christophany(a non-physical appearance of Christ prior to his birth).
The passages showing this angel of YHWH is divine:
Genesis 16
Genesis 22
Genesis 31
Exodus 3
Exodus 14
Numbers 22
Judges 2
Judges 6
Judges 13
Zechariah 3
Zechariah 12
The angel of YHWH is also referred as the "word of YHWH"(Similar to how Jesus is referred to as the word of God)
Isaiah 48:16 - “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me.”
Also the Hebrew bible also states that the messiah would come from a past-eternal source(God) in Micah 5:2 - which states:
"“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”"
Many rabbis have wrestled with this concept of multiple beings each called YHWH. Here are the three persons in the old testament:
YHWH
ANGEL OF YHWH
SPIRIT OF YHWH
Ancient Jews who noticed this:
Philo of Alexandria: taught something similar to modalism or partialism, he believed that there were 3 gods who came from 1 God who created the world.
New testament:
Matthew 28:19 says - " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Round 4
" I do not fully believe that baptism is required for salvation. "
Not fully, well partially believing is a start. It's in the scriptures that baptism has to be in place to be saved. Now you may or may not believe all of the scriptures.
If you care to dispute this biblically for the sake of people understanding what the scriptures teach, we can do that .
"However, baptism is still one of the most important rituals in Christianity. "
We have no scripture calling baptism a ritual. No use of a thing called Christianity.
"The trinity is real and is in the bible. The Hebrew bible/Old testament often says that God said "let us". For example:"
Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Nowhere it says trinity here so I won't be adding it. .
Remember Proverbs 30.
I don't see "trinity", "three Gods", "three deities", " three persons", "three personalities", etc. nothing three.
"Instead of saying "I will" God says "let us", "
Let's continue reading Genesis 1, verse
"27 So God created man in his own image"
Just God alone .
Let's look at Psalms 86, we'll begin at verse:
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
God shonough made the earth which would include all nations alone.
"We can also say that angels helped God, but angels cannot create living things like God can. "
Just to be clear because you may not be saying this but if angels helped God create anything, the scripture below doesn't give them credit.
Let's go to John chapter one , first three verses.
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Let's not get into what we can say . Get into what the scripture says.
"Many rabbis have wrestled with this concept of multiple beings each called YHWH. Here are the three persons in the old testament:
YHWH
ANGEL OF YHWH
SPIRIT OF YHWH "
I can understand the wrestle. This is what happens arguing over personal interpretation.
Just read what is written having the same spirit of faith as we read in 2 Corinthians 4.
I see you're calling what's listed " three persons". But we can't read where the book is calling that.
To prevent false doctrine and lies according to Proverbs 30, let us not lean unto our own understanding.
We can understand from scripture, God is everywhere. But it doesn't teach multiple beings of Father God. Multiple places ok, but we'll leave it at that right where the bible leaves it.
"Philo of Alexandria: taught something similar to modalism or partialism, he believed that there were 3 gods who came from 1 God who created the world."
Personal beliefs and interpretations. What is the truth? So present scripture where we can read there is a divine trinity.
"Matthew 28:19 says - " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Notice it states nothing about being saved. Attention to detail is key.
“Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
If the Bible was polytheistic(which it is not) then these would be 3 gods. But there is only one god. It is commonly misunderstood that the trinity is 3 gods, it is not 3 gods, it is 1 God and 3 persons. The Holy Spirit is referred to doing things only a person can do. The word is both distinct from God and also God. You can think of God as the sun, and the 3 persons as the ball, the rays, and the heat, it is all interconnected and unified. The Bible doesn’t need to say “trinity” to show that it exists. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck, smells like a duck, then it is a duck.
Round 5
Well in closing because there was no scripture presented that there is a divine trinity, there'll be nothing much further. The debate is over.
No rebuttals to what I gave and understandably so. There's no contesting what the scriptures actually say.
It was made clear that the rules to this debate was to find scripture verbatim. But to just defy that according to what you believe in saying it doesn't have to say it, we don't have to read it is evasive.
It's a copout, it's defiance not just in this arena but against Proverbs 30 . The book of 2 Corinthians 4 points out about believing the same thing based upon what's written. It's not what a man decides to call something or some theological, subjected, opinionated , calculative conclusion. You shouldn't be calculating and adding. You shouldn't be adding 1, 2, 3 trinity.
We see scripture where it states God alone. Not God with 3 persons.
You lean unto your own understanding which is another violation of Proverbs 3 in which your path is to be directed. You're to be led by the spirit.
Mankind attempts to understand scripture in their own fashion coming up with these schools and terms to refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit where scripture has given you no permission to do so.
Well it looks like this , looks like that, looks like three of this or three of such and such. Well then I'm going to refer to this as three persons, three personalities.
This is how false doctrines are born.
We have no scripture that a person is saved being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Matthew 28 says teaching all nations , baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Some translations it says making disciples of all nations.
The context is around teaching and following.
I believe Acts 2 was brought out about being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins. Now that supports being saved by being baptized in that name. It's more of a long way around of explaining the removal or remission of sins connected to being saved but nevertheless it's in context.
Back on to this about this so called divine trinity. This was something else I intended to bring up earlier.
In Isaiah 44
Verse "6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Trying to fit in distinct personalities where the scripture does not accommodate for in saying "I am the first , and I am the last". There's no "We are the first , and We are the last". No " We three " , no " We three that are one ", none of that found here.
In verse 8 it continues
"8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
Now we can agree there is just God. Nobody perhaps is arguing more than one God at this present time. There is just God but people believe and argue there is more than just God. We can be on one accord that there is just God. However the scripture doesn't agree that there is more than God such as multiple personalities alongside.
Is there a God besides ? No acknowledgement there. No acknowledgement of three persons in deities. Someone can say it's not acknowledged there in that passage. Right, so shall we not acknowledge.
This entire debate was the chance to show where the acknowledgement comes in. It never came through and without that, there's no existence to either of these things at this point in time .
The word "trinity" doesn't need to be found in the bible in order to be proven a true doctrine. What one needs to find is the nature of the trinity in the bible. As the duck test says If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If the bible reads like God is a trinity, if God acts like the trinity, If a being(such as the angel of YHWH/Jesus, The holy spirit, and the father) speaks like being part of the trinity, then there is a trinity.
This was the TWO THOUSANDTH debate to be completed on this site!
Dishonest.
I do not hesitate to defend orthodox Christianity when given the chance.
!!VOTE NOW!!
It's kind of weird how this is my first Christian vs Christian debate.
I usually address everyone with "kid". I don't really mean to demean people that way.
If you really are as serious about respectful debate as you claim to be, I would recommend not using belittling terms like "kid" when addressing your opponent.