Instigator / Pro
1
1420
rating
395
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won
Topic
#3443
No such thing as general financial freedom
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
RationalMadman
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
2
1702
rating
574
debates
67.86%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
******The first round will be an expanded version of the debate description. Much information has to be explained more in detail than what the description field will allow.******
This notion of economic freedom/financial freedom is phony.
A previous debate I was in gave me an idea for this topic. I think the person was attempting to demonstrate their "slave free" life while being incognizant of their bondage to monetary currency.
Yes we are in a currency prison system folks. It is made up of what you can call monetary supremacy. It is the supreme ruler of the world and we are subjected to it.
To be continued................
For questions and clarity, please comment, send a message.
Round 1
This notion of economic freedom/financial freedom is phony.
A previous debate I was in gave me an idea for this topic. I think the person was attempting to demonstrate their "slave free" life while being incognizant of their bondage to monetary currency.
Yes we are in a currency prison system folks. It is made up of what you can call monetary supremacy. It is the supreme ruler of the world and we are subjected to it.
Just sit back and observe. Everything we do , no matter what it is, is by in some way , form or fashion connected to currency.
Being in bondage means you're obligated to what you're bonded to. We're obligated to do what? What is necessary to meet the condition of whatever it is we seek to do.
True financial freedom is to be free from finance. If I was financially free, it would mean I no longer have to meet a standard or condition other than what is necessary.
An old friend and I discussed some time ago about this. This was a person that can also see and observe truth . One person that if to be multiplied into a host of individuals on this site, it would shift the popular opinion and voting pool. On to the point and that is we can see that at one time, all there was , was just resources. That's all we've ever needed to obtain the essentials to self sustenance and life balance.
So as time progresses, we think we're solving problems by inventing systems. But the cycle of issues continue and which the result comes that we have today in the big world of commerce. Yes that big financial issue known as debt. They say we have no real money in this country , the U.S. of A.
We're obligated through many means to include the punching in and out of the workplace. The workforce that dictates your schedule, your work life balance in order to keep you submitting to your obligation, that is to what you owe.
It's what you will always owe as long as this system is in place. Unless you're one of those bravehearts. Some have come up with a solution for themselves to break the chains of rent, taxes and so forth by heading towards nature, the forest or a place possibly conducive for cabin shelter.
Now you can try to witness how abrasive it will be to try and maintain your life outside the system that has been maintaining you.
The survival rate for doing so could be dictated by wild life, natural disaster , etc.
Then even with that , just think, in some way, the system was used to provide for you in perhaps transporting to , maintaining in, securing the stability of yourself in a nature like environment. Let's think of tools, supplies, industrial products and so forth that will have to be used , prepared , obtained on the journey to true financial freedom. It may be free for you but no purge of the system. The system stills maintains the wild park authority rangers that mostly will be your safety net. I understand much land thought to be not owned can be private areas unbeknownst to you. There's that factor of trespass of a territory. You must have a plan, knowing what you're in for going to a moneyless lifestyle.
Aside from that least likely route of existence for anyone, the dollar is supreme in your life.
That financial condition has to be met in some kind of way just to save your life.
I understand when people say they're financially free, they have a prolific source of monetary funds. You're still beholden to meet your bills. You have greater room and choices of purchases and so you say you have freedom. You have a greater scale to decide the exchange of goods and services that makes it more likely to fit your wants. Enough room to get your needs presumably so now to take care of your wants.
Unlike the person that has a small income, they have less room , less freedom to buy what they desire. So this has them more obligated, more restrained in what they can do. Sometimes the restraint is so tight, some needs will be cut or sacrificed.
But both parties are in the prison system. Some prisoners have more space, a bigger cell, with privilege or much more privilege than others.
Understand you're imprisoned to what you do to get what it is to get. So a condition to meet via some sort of labor to get a wage that meets another condition to get what it is to get. An all around enslavement cycle.
As said, both parties in the prison system are obligated under that system that maintains and provides for them. Although one party has more privilege or more freedom within, they're still within. One side has a larger capacity of things to freely choose of while all of it is dictated inside the prison. That dictation is still that obligation or subjection to meeting monetary conditions.
This speaks to another debate topic that was in reference to the business owner. There are many business owners in prison. They run all kinds of businesses dealing with contraband and legal services dealing with virtually knick knack items such as ramen noodles, postage stamps, etc. to hire a staff of inmates for cleaning , "housekeeping"/laundry type services.
So the business owners are beholden to the system and market as the business owner on the outside is .
True freedom or economic freedom is free from any obligation of the economic system. Just being free to have a wider variety of purchasing power under obligation while still being obligated in the things you do to participate and live in the system is imprisonment.
Now this topic is by far the greatest arena that has to take much observation. If you think or argue that there is no imprisonment other than the penal system, there's nothing beyond freedom than it in the world of economic commerce, you're not attentive or observant to the world around you.
Financial freedom usually means having enough savings, financial investments, and cash on hand to afford the kind of life we desire for ourselves and our families.It means growing savings that enable us to retire or pursue the career we want without being driven by earning a set salary each year. Financial freedom means our money is working for us rather than the other way around.
How do you become financially free?
To become financially free, you must pay off your consumer debts, build a safety net of savings funds, and create enough passive income through investing or business ownership to pay for your current and expected future living expenses.
We are burdened with increasing debt, monetary emergencies, excessive consumer spending, and other problems that keep us from reaching our most meaningful financial objectives.Such challenges confront everybody, but the following twelve habits can put you on the ideal path to financial wellness.
We/You are able to have:
- sufficient/enough savings
- financial investments
- cash on hand
in order to:
afford the kind of life we (or you) desire for ourselves and our families.
Therefore, there is such a thing as general financial freedom.
Round 2
Ok, you just posted definitions. Will you respond and actually prove what I stated isn't true based on what was said?
You know you're not free from finances and paying bills.
The copout response is to just say "no, there is financial freedom, there is a such thing based on this or these particular definitions". We're not arguing definitions. It's about what's logical, what makes sense, hence the truth.
What is the truth? Unless you've found a way to actually be free from money or finances, you're not FREE from it. Having a large amount of money means more freedom but not free from it. Like a prisoner that has a bigger cell with more knick knacks is a person with a bigger house and all like that.
Let's say I have quite a few debts. I have a little less than the middle class in terms of financial savings. You say if I had more money, I'd experience "financial freedom". Well I have more money than a homeless person. Way more than a person who just has a miniscule amount under a 100 dollars for the week.
See perspectives can continue to shift in this way blurring the lines so now the line to draw is unclear. This is a problem running into the definitions you just gave. The logical one clear line of measure, are you free from financial obligation or not?
One inmate can choose within the prison system what they're allowed to do. Another one with tighter or looser chains can choose as well under bondage still.
Keyword is "freedom". Am I free to do what I desire or am I a slave with a slightly loosened, loose or very loose chain?
Look at wilderness survivors and thrivers?
Ask that same question, they'll laugh. No bills, no taxes, no supreme dollar over their livelihood.
Back on just trying to combat definitions instead of just refuting invalidity.
I can say you're an atheist that has a belief about God like a theist. You'd say "no, atheist has a lack of a belief in God".
An atheist believes that God doesn't exist.
Is that true or false? Logically it's the truth.
That's where it's at. Is there truth, is there validity to what was presented?
Look for that .
You know you're not free from finances and paying bills.
Correct, to have financial freedom is to have paid them off and have money to spare still that one can spend freely with mobility within the economic framework, you don't need to be free of the need to pay them instead you need to have met that need and have freedom with the money you still have left.
Financial freedom is about using the money one has in a way that is as free as one can be in said economy. This is why the debate's title says 'general financial freedom' and not 'absolute' :)
Round 3
"Correct, to have financial freedom is to have paid them off"
Right, that's my position. As long as you have to continue to pay bills. Food, water, shelter, expenses, they continue. Taxes, medical care, anything you can think of. There's nothing at no cost outside the wilderness and strictly hunting.
"have money to spare still that one can spend freely with mobility within the economic frame"
Correct within the prison walls , I agree.
"you don't need to be free of the need to pay "
Correct , there is no need, just reality of the world and the dollar bill .
"you need to have met that need and have freedom"
That's what I'm saying. Preacher to the choir. Amen. I'm saying obligation. You need to meet something. You need to have met something like a need to get something. Something like what? What you are free to do AFTER what? See there's still obligation involved. It's continuous. It doesn't just stop there. It's a cyclic condition. When you need to have met something, that's a condition.
It's cyclic, meaning not freedom but bonded, obligated, in bondage, having on a chain that extends or loose enough to do things still under some constraint.
Is that free or bonded with some slack?
You're either bonded or free.
" with the money you still have left."
Or else what? Always look at the big picture. Or else what happens?
You're obligated, bonded to pay up . If things were free of charge,free from financing anything, free from financial interest, etc., you can get that free meal. You can get that " costly" medical operation. No conditions or imprisonment. When we have to satisfy stipulations in order to live, our lives are shackled as such.
"Financial freedom is about using the money one has in a way that is as free as one can be in said economy. "
Free as can be. That "can be" part is hinting at allowance. I agree that there is some sort of allowance there. That's why I'm asking the measuring difference of free and bonded. Am I free to do period or bonded with freedom to do somethings?
Sounds like using money one has in a way that is free to them to do with is still obligation/bondage(money) in place serving as a level of restraint .
"This is why the debate's title says 'general financial freedom' and not 'absolute' :)"
No this is not the reason. The reason why it states "general" is because we know of the exceptions of those taken to the wilderness. Those that have constructed cabins, hunt for food and survived forest environmental elements. But the general person you meet will be indebted and obligated financially as in not being free of it or from it.
You've stated things that support the debate title. These things are just being stated differently not under realization. Perhaps due to this topic never being thought of before holistically. The facts are what they are about the monetary system. You and others just may view and express them in varying fashions.
"Correct, to have financial freedom is to have paid them off"
"have money to spare still that one can spend freely with mobility within the economic frame"
Paid off bills, not revolving, recurrent ones. You're not free from ongoing costs and to carry around money is having that chain carried around ongoing, tied to you
with allowance within its length.
"spend freely with mobility within the economic frame"
Freedom of Mobility ( to move around) Within(boundary/limitation) the Economic frame(I call it the monetary prison or monetary prison yard) Whichever way you identify it. It's in the compounds of this currency supremacy that confines the person .
Which is really a bonded person that can be free to do some things. So the misnomer of a person being just outright free, no.
Money is necessary
Round 4
I'm to recap here with everything brought up thus far. There were no additional arguments given from the "opposing side". It's really just different language being used to explain at a different angle.
Take this illustration first as a walkthrough of what we're talking about.
You exist and you presumably do inside this monetary system. You can call it the economic system, the financial systemized world of commerce . You no doubt exist in it having some tie to currency. Before, at birth and onwards.
The currency is the obligatory factor you're not FREE of.
As the day starts, you wake up in a bed. You're only free to do that because the bed was paid for . It was bought for you to be able to sleep in. You get out of bed, put on slippers, put on clothes, get cleaned up using toiletries. All of these items at a cost of currency. The water flowing to your home to wash up with at the cost of currency. To do all of this under a roof, the roof, the shelter at the cost of currency. You walk to a refrigerator and you're able to have that reserve things at the cost of currency. The energy used to keep things refrigerated at the cost of currency. Now like they say, a good start to a day is one of the most important meals, breakfast. Which of course is at the cost of currency and perhaps the largest. As without the energy you get from food, you can't do anything.
Life as a whole is wrapped up in currency or obligation or imprisonment, shackled to this condition called currency. Far from free of it .
You can't do anything without something to do with it directly or indirectly.
So when you see this thing about "financial freedom", of course it most likely means more of what you can do with your money.
It sounds nicer than saying a longer shackled chain of a chained slave to currency.
But it's the truth. You're not free from finance. The chain of finance or monetary obligation is still there.
Financial freedom usually means having enough savings, financial investments, and cash on hand to afford the kind of life we desire for ourselves and our families.It means growing savings that enable us to retire or pursue the career we want without being driven by earning a set salary each year. Financial freedom means our money is working for us rather than the other way around.How do you become financially free?To become financially free, you must pay off your consumer debts, build a safety net of savings funds, and create enough passive income through investing or business ownership to pay for your current and expected future living expenses.We are burdened with increasing debt, monetary emergencies, excessive consumer spending, and other problems that keep us from reaching our most meaningful financial objectives.Such challenges confront everybody, but the following twelve habits can put you on the ideal path to financial wellness.We/You are able to have:
- sufficient/enough savings
- financial investments
- cash on hand
in order to:afford the kind of life we (or you) desire for ourselves and our families.Therefore, there is such a thing as general financial freedom.
Me, Round 1
Pro denies that if you no longer have to pay a bill, you are free of it. In fact, even if you have to pay off a loan, all you need to pay is the current demanded part of it (if you're on a monthly payback plan) not the entirety. Financial freedom is about the money you have left over, if you're free and to what degree you're free to "afford the kind of life we desire for ourselves and our families." Can you possibly do that? Yes. Therefore, general financial freedom exists.
I was away at a three-day music festival in NYC, so could not vote. Congrats on your victory.
Another debate with no true opposing sides.
thank you for your vote, it seems you saw what I did in Round 3.
the more effort you put in vs Mall the more he latches onto and gish gallops. Really I am fed up of debating him
Yeah, this one was close. RM put in the absolute bare minimum.
Mall may have won this debate. As this is my new account I do not yet have voting permissions, but I can evaluate that Rational Madman's output was much too low here.
From experience they take a good 12 hours to approve you even after hitting 100 posts. I will try. I know I will get the 5 posts in today
I am not qualified to vote yet. I need 100 posts
That might be fair, but this is just where different paradigms come in. The definition may very well hold if money is necessary, but in my view if you do not respond adequately in round I am going to award the point to the other side. Tech > Truth.
It didnt matter to respond to, if money is necessary and my definition holds.
If you can show me where (after R2) you give a direct response to Pro's argument that: The reason why it states "general" is because we know of the exceptions of those taken to the wilderness, and where you explicitly address neg's theory that you should not debate around definitions, I will delete my vote.
Your definition is obviously right, and pro's is obviously wrong. The problem isn't the merit of your definition, it is that you never answer the arguments put forth in R3 by pro (however wrong they may be in reality).
You have no idea how definitions in a debate work if you think Pro out-defined me in the debate and I have very little respect or concern for you as a voter. What you said is basically that my definition is wrong despite being backed by sources and making sense, while Pro's is correct even though he never properly deterred or handled mine.
Everything flows through on Pro after R3, including his definition.
For clarification here is the flow as I see it interms of the defention:
You give a defenition in R1,
In R2 pro says "The copout response is to just say "no, there is financial freedom, there is a such thing based on this or these particular definitions". We're not arguing definitions. It's about what's logical, what makes sense, hence the truth.
What is the truth? Unless you've found a way to actually be free from money or finances, you're not FREE from it. Having a large amount of money means more freedom but not free from it. Like a prisoner that has a bigger cell with more knick knacks is a person with a bigger house and all like that. "
In R2 you say: "Financial freedom is about using the money one has in a way that is as free as one can be in said economy. This is why the debate's title says 'general financial freedom' and not 'absolute' :)"
Up to this point you are winning on the definition.
Then in R3 Pro says: "No this is not the reason. The reason why it states "general" is because we know of the exceptions of those taken to the wilderness. Those that have constructed cabins, hunt for food and survived forest environmental elements. But the general person you meet will be indebted and obligated financially as in not being free of it or from it.
You've stated things that support the debate title. These things are just being stated differently not under realization. Perhaps due to this topic never being thought of before holistically. The facts are what they are about the monetary system. You and others just may view and express them in varying fashions."
In R3 you say: "Money is necessary."
This does not respond to Pros analysis (albeit clearly B.S. analysis) of the resolution saying that it is not absolute. This is where you drop the entire case. Tech > Truth. Pro wins.
please vote here, 1 day left but easy read
I never dropped the case at all, I gave a definition in Round 1
I would appreciate a vote here.
Good to see you back here!
Welcome back