Okay, the first thing I’m confused on is what the opponent means by disadvantage or advantage. Disadvantage or advantage in relation to what? Orin what context?
First thing: I’m confused what the opponent means by disadvantage or advantage. Disadvantage or advantage in relation to what? Orin what context?
You can skip to the “###” if you just want to see my argument, but, between there and here, I dismantle the opponent’s argument.
C1 Rebuttal:
So, beginning with the Trans Suicide statistic. This does not imply that it is better or worse to be Trans, it only implies to be that it sucks to be Trans in high school, which probably has some lingering psychological issues across a person’s life. This, to me, does not confer advantage or disadvantage inherent to being trans, it confers a lack of compassion in a society.
Are you ready to learn some critical thinking skills and how to use statistics?
Let’s start with looking at bullying in general, then move on to trans youth, then onto trans suicidality and mental illness as a whole.
So, around 15% - 22% of students in the US are bullied, and those who are bullied are more likely to develop or experience symptoms of mental illness, or a mental illness itself—up to 40%more likely, and (foreshadowing a later topic) 35% more likely to be unemployed later in life.
LGBT students can be around twice as likely to have reported incidents of bullying, with some stats showing around 50% of LGBT students have reported incidents of bullying, and Transgender students have even higher rates of bullying, with up to 61% of Trans students reporting bullying.
In addition, most bullying occurs in Middle School, with it becoming less prevalent in High School. This means, the earlier you begin experiencing trauma, the longer it affects you, the less developed socially, emotionally and psychologically you become. In other words, being bullied at a younger age is worse than being bullied at a later age.
What this means is that there is not an advantage or disadvantage to being a transgender youth. What this means is there is an advantage or disadvantage to being bullied.
We can assume that, if trans people are more likely to be bullied, this means they are not conferred the disadvantage of mental illness by any inherent attribute of being transgender, but of being bullied for being transgender.
You aren’t more likely to kill yourself because of being Trans, you are more likely to kill yourself if you’ve been bullied or have had trauma of similar kinds. Your own source mentioned that Trans people might be abused at home, by family members and so on. I’ve linked some stats to that as well.
And, using… your own source…
“
- Fifty-five percent of LGBT youth feel unsafe at school because of their sexual orientation, and 37 percent feel unsafe because of their gender expression.
- Seventy-four percent of LGBT youth were verbally harassed because of their sexual orientation, and 56 percent were verbally harassed because of their gender expression.
- Sixteen percent were physically assaulted — either punched, kicked, or injured with a weapon — because of their sexual orientation, and 11 percent of them experienced this type of assault because of their gender expression.
”
Now, let’s actually break down suicide rates a bit more, and what this means for what you’re trying to prove. What I am about to try and prove is that transgender people are just as likely or even less likely to have suicidal ideation than the average person with mental health disorders, and that the mental health disorders trans people have are not an inherent aspect of being trans, but of how society, and people like you, treat LGBT people.
In essence, I’m going to show why you are a "black and heavy weight."
Lol jk, you are not "a black and heavy weight," but it feels bad to be called names, doesn’t it?
Did you like that little rhetorical strategy there?
Anywho.
I’ve actually found a few additional statistics on suicidality among gender dysphoric individuals which somewhat contradict what you’ve said (the importance of finding statistics across multiple sources, rather than relying on one source).
According to one source, only about48.3% of people with gender dysphoria report suicidal ideation, and only 23.8%have attempted suicide.
In another quasi-meta-analysis (
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meta-analysis ), gender dysphoric individuals only have a .6% suicide rate; whereas people with MDD have a 20% risk of suicide, with inpatient MDD patients having a 2% suicide rate and outpatients having a 4% suicide rate; the attempted suicide rate of transgender youth is below 41%; and that individuals with psychiatric or neurodiverse conditions other than gender dysphoria are far more likely to die from suicide.
What this means is that otherwise normal people who suffer from mental illness, but are non-LGBT, are more likely to kill themselves. So, as far as suicide goes, you’re wrong. It would appear that trans people are less likely to kill themselves than non-LGBT people with mental illness, which might mean it confers an advantage over non-LGBT people.
The lifetime prevalence of MDD is around 20.6%; the lifetime prevalence of GAD is 5.7%; and the prevalence of personality disorders is around 9.1%.
However, only 7.1% of people in the US are LGBT.
This means there far more people in the country who have a mental disorder with high rates of suicide and are not LGBT than there are LGBT people in the United States.
To wrap that up, being LGBT does not seem to mean you are more suicidal than someone with a mental illness, and that any mental illnesses which could lead to suicide among LGBT people are more likely caused by bullying (at home, at work, at school, online, etc.) than by some inherent property of being LGBT.
C2 Rebuttal:
So far, your argument here just kind of reiterates my point: if it sucks to be an LGBT person, it sucks because other humans make it that way.
Did you know that if you are sober, you’re more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a drunk driver is? Which means, it's disadvantageous to be a sober driver, and it’s advantageous to be a drunk driver.
That’s the logic you’re using here, just saying.
But let’s go over quality of life.
First of all, you make a huge mistake right off the bat. You talk about homeless youth, and then you say LGBT people are more likely to be homeless.
Here’s another parallel to your logic.
Country A is more likely to have thunderstorms in May than Country B, therefore, Country A is more likely to have thunderstorms than Country B.
Just because it rains more in May, doesn’t mean you can make conclusions about the rainfall of the entire year without additional data.
Just because individuals of a certain demographic are more likely to face hardships at one portion of their life does not mean they will likely face similar hardships across their entire lives.
In addition, a higher level of homeless among LGBT youth still does not confer a disadvantage to some inherent property of LGBT people, but, rather, the treatment of them. Why would an LGBT youth be homeless?
Being homeless when you’re under 18,for the most part, has nothing to do with the youth, but with their family, with their providers, guardians and so forth. If someone is homeless and they’re under 18, odds are, it’s not their fault. It’s their living situation, their providers and their guardians.
In general, factors that contribute to youth homelessness, “include lack of affordable housing, economic insecurity, violence at home, behavioral health, lack of social support, and involvement in the child welfare system.”
These same factors are prevalent in the causes of mental health issues in LGBT youth. Lack of social support, abuse at home, and likely abuse at school, or a lack of the same social connections non-LGBT people or children at risk of homelessness would likely face at school.
Once again, no inherent advantage or disadvantage, but, rather, a difference in how LGBT people might be treated. Same goes for the sexual assault statistics.
As far as your poverty statistic,
It’s actually a lot more complicated than you’re making it out to be, which shows me you’re not actually engaging with the statistics, with what the statistics (and the aggregate conclusions of the statistics) are saying.
So, first of all, gay men are actually the least likely out of all groups (including straight cis-men) to experience poverty. Gay men have a poverty rate of 12.1%, while straight men have a poverty rate of 13.4%.
So, this shows an advantage for gay men.
In addition, cis-gender straight women and cis-gender lesbian women have almost identical poverty rates, 17.8% and17.9%, respectively. This means, among straight and lesbian women, there seems to be no advantage or disadvantage to whether or not you will live in poverty due to your sexuality.
Bisexual men have a 19.5% poverty rate, and bisexual women have a 29.4% poverty rate. The increase in poverty rates between bisexual men and women are approximately the same, by ratio, as the increase in poverty rates for cis-straight men and women.
And then, trans people have the same poverty rates as bisexual women. This, to me, shows there is only really a disadvantageous difference in poverty for LGBT people if you are bi or trans, and that gay men actually have an advantage here. This goes along with what I’ve been explaining so far, showing how the cycle of abuse can affect people, cause long-term mental illness, and that our treatment of LGBT people is likely what causes the appearance of disadvantage.
Except for gay men. Apparently, they’ve escaped the poverty trap and cycles of abuse and mental health slightly better than everyone else.
In addition, the total percentages(~16% poverty rate for non-LGBT and ~22% for LGBT) might be skewed due to the relatively higher rates of poverty among smaller populations of LGBT people. Gay men comprise the highest population among LGBT people, but bisexual men and women as well as transgender people have higher poverty rates, despite having lower populations.
So, smaller populations of LGBT people with higher rates of poverty might skew the poverty statistics.
As a rough parallel.
10 people have between 80 and 90dollars.
On average, they each have about 95dollars.
5 people walk in who each have between 40 and 45 dollars.
Well, now, on average, everyone in the room each has about 77 dollars.
So, you could make the claim that, on average, everyone in that room makes less than 80 dollars, but, actually, most people in that room are making more than 80 dollars. However, because a small number of people in that room make way less, it makes it seem like everyone else in that room is making less than they actually are.
(I used your own source for all of this, by the way. You really need to get better with sources.)
And this one
Moving right along now to my own arguments.
Please vote!
Please vote if you can. I tagged whiteflame just because, and I tagged you because you commented in the debate
PLEASE VOTE
Take your time, it was a long response. I wanted to make sure you not only had fun, but that you had fun for a long time.
I will have fun in this debate.
I agree
Okay? Have fun debating a truism lmao
Gays and Bisexual men are more likely to get HIV from their promiscuous sex. This would be akin to saying that "On average, one is better off not being promiscuous" which is accurate.
Transgenders often have to pay for a surgery that's expensive. But this is akin to saying, "On average, one is better off not needing glasses" because glasses are also an expense.
The description is quite clear.
One is better off if they are not lesbian gay bisexual or trans.
This debate needs clarification. One cannot choose to not be LGBTQ. If the resolution is that cishet people are better off on average, that's a truism (they're identical in all-but not having to face discrimination, which is a gigantic positive). If the resolution is that a person shouldn't come out as LGBTQ and should live their live as though they were cishet regardless of what they know themselves to be, then we have a debate on our hands.
I want to debate someone who is relatively high on the rankings, but anyone is fine.