Instigator / Pro

elhombremasinteligente

1493

rating

debates

16.67%

won

Topic

#3254

the world would be better if ruled by women.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Bones

Judges

RationalMadman

574 debates / 861 votes

Voted

Tags

Politics

Parameters

Publication date: 11.01.2021 03:40AM
Last updated date: 01.31.2022 08:57PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Two weeks
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Judges

Contender / Con

Bones

1761

rating

debates

95.16%

won

Description

If only women ruled the world, society would be better than it is today.
definitions:
world = total set of states.
society = set of human interactions.

rules:
the burden of proof is equal for both parties.
my opponent must adhere to the definitions.

Round 1

elhombremasinteligente

11.01.2021 02:33PM

Pro

Thanks for accepting the debate, but I must admit something, I'm scared, bones is incredibly good at debating, better than me, without a doubt.

my opening argument will be the following:

1. With more cooperative rulers, wars occur less.

2. a world with fewer wars is a better world.

3. women are more cooperative.

4. a world where women rule would be a better world.

For the first premise we have the scientific evidence, in 2011 UNESCO reviewed 200 groups of primitive humans, and none showed signs of having participated in a war, that was at a time when humans had no choice but to cooperate to face the natural hazards.

For 2 we can use reasoning, clearly wars cause damage, a world with fewer wars is a better world, the Muslim invasions of India caused 600 million deaths, the First World War 100 million, the Cold War 60 million, and so I can continue all day.

on women's cooperativity we have a lot of data:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.08046&ved=2ahUKEwjqrcjMrPfzAhVjkWoFHWTDCKMQFnoECDoQAQHCKVq9Vaw2ytHCKVq9Vaw2yt

women are more empathetic (so it is more likely that they share the feelings of the other, and choose to cooperate, so that the other does not lose so much).

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/womens-brains-show-more-empathy.

once the premises are fulfilled, the conclusion is true.

Bones

11.02.2021 02:06AM

Con

thx elhombremasinteligente, for your kind words. Truth be told, this topic is very foreign to me so you may have the familiarity advantage here.

General refutation

PRO's syllogism

1. With more cooperative rulers, wars occur less.

2. a world with fewer wars is a better world.

3. women are more cooperative.

4. a world where women rule would be a better world.

Overall, my opposition's syllogism is decent, except for its non sequential conclusion. Notice how my opponent measures "better" by the number of wars a nation is involved in. Whilst being free of international conflict is good thing, it is not the only metric that should be used to compare the "betterness" of a country. Compare, for example, our civilisation with primitive humans, of which my opponent rightly points out, show no sign of having participated in war. Should we be anti-evolving into primitive humans because they have less conflict?

Furthermore, if we were to utilize my oppositions logic, our nation should employ primitive humans as our leaders, as

1. With more cooperative rulers, wars occur less.

2. a world with fewer wars is a better world.

3. primitive humans are more cooperative.

4. a world where primitive humans rule would be a better world.

Obviously, my opponents flaw is magnified. Having no wars is definitely a good thing, but not at the cost of "de-evolutioning". To take my opponents one step further, we would be justified in killing every person on the planet, on the basis that if everyone were dead, the number of wars would plummet to 0.

Contention 1: PRO's proposition is sexist and discriminatory.

The American Psychological Association published an article, Men and Women: No Big Difference, concluding: “Studies show that one's sex has little or no bearing on personality, cognition and leadership.” Through cooperation is a good metric of measuring one's leadership, leadership itself is better for measuring ones leadership capabilities. As studies have shown that there are no big differences between the leadership abilities of men and women, both should have the right to be in positions of power. To create a world where only women can be leaders is to sacrifice democracy, as people are not given the choice to vote for the candidate they want.

Furthermore, imagine if my opponent's position were that only European (white) people could be leaders, and that black people could not be leaders. Obviously, regardless of whether black people are or are not more cooperative than Europeans, this does not suggest that we should ban black people from positions of political power. Even if we were to accept that women are superior leaders (they are not), to ban all men from becoming leaders is still discrimination.

Round 2

elhombremasinteligente

11.02.2021 06:17PM

Pro

Although he is right that it is not the only way to measure the welfare of a country if it is the best way to measure the welfare of the general set of states, especially considering our degree of arms progress.

In the case of primitive humans, they were more cooperative because they had to be, in a situation where they are not forced to be it is unlikely that they are more cooperative than modern humans, you cannot start killing all humans without creating a war in the process, if for example I begin to kill a family, and the family defends itself, we would have a war between myself and the family, so it would be impossible to achieve that degree of wars or if we kill everybody.

leadership skills are not really that good at measuring the benefit of the world in general, napoleon bonaparte was undoubtedly a great leader who brought great benefits to the French empire, that does not change that it represents a lot of harm to the world in general, and that It was precisely due to their lack of cooperation, their argument about racism is correct, but irrelevant, if I say that Europeans are less violent than blacks, this could be considered racism, but that does not mean that what I said is racism.

The question of democracy is interesting, but, is it objectively wrong to sacrifice democracy? If you were a ship, who would you prefer to direct it, the most popular or the most qualified to direct the ship?

Bones

11.03.2021 10:20PM

Con

Although he is right that it is not the only way to measure the welfare of a country if it is the best way to measure the welfare of the general set of states, especially considering our degree of arms progress.

I have already shown that measuring the welfare of a country based on the number of wars they have is inefficient. To use my opponents own claim, primitive humans have shown no signs of having participated in a war, yet one would hardly argue that the overall well-being of a primitive human is greater than a technologically advanced human being. Furthermore, as I stated in my opening, were we to measure welfare on the number of wars a nation participates in, we would be justified in killing the entire world, as this immediately mean that all wars cease.

In the case of primitive humans, they were more cooperative because they had to be, in a situation where they are not forced to be it is unlikely that they are more cooperative than modern humans

This claim is purely hypothetical and unsourced.

you cannot start killing all humans without creating a war in the process, if for example I begin to kill a family, and the family defends itself, we would have a war between myself and the family, so it would be impossible to achieve that degree of wars or if we kill everybody.

This was a hypothetical situation. Moreover, the government could, if they were to adopt your model, drop a nuclear bomb on every major city, thereby essentially incapacitating the worlds function to trade and communicate, which would lead to the end of civilisation. Under my opponents model, which is that no wars = good society, we could kill everyone and create 0 wars.

leadership skills are not really that good at measuring the benefit of the world in general

To simplify, I'll offer this argument as a syllogism.

p1. People who have leadership skills are good at being good leaders.

p2. Men and women are equally good leadership skills.

c1. Therefore, men and women are good leaders.

The question of democracy is interesting, but, is it objectively wrong to sacrifice democracy?

None of this is objective, but from the perspective of maximising well-being, democracy is integral. Democracy has played a vital role in the story of civilisation, helping transform the world from power structures of monarchy, empire, and conquest into popular rule, self-determination, and peaceful co-existence. Though it isn't objectively wrong to sacrifice democracy (very few things are objective), it is for our society.

If you were a ship, who would you prefer to direct it, the most popular or the most qualified to direct the ship?

I would look at qualification, not other factors such as gender.

Round 3

elhombremasinteligente

11.04.2021 04:23PM

Pro

You showed that measuring the well-being of a country based on the number of wars is insufficient, but not ineffective, and in any case, measuring the well-being of the world in general by the tendency towards wars if it is effective, the reason is that if it is comes to unleash a third world war we would be facing a mass extinction event, by the way, there are people who would defend that primitive humans had a higher level of well-being

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nihilsentimentalgia09.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/unibomber-manifesto.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwit-abw9_7zAhXSnGoFHQa6BRQQFnoECB8QAQa6BRQQmvusECB8QAQA6BRQQm & ECB8QAQ.

Although I admit that my statement is hypothetical, there are good reasons to believe it, humans could not survive natural hostility without teamwork.

the problem with your hypothetical situation is that it only proves that my judgment might be wrong, not that my judgment is wrong.

If countries drop a nuclear bomb on every major city, they will soon have a social and economic crisis leading to civil wars.

his syllogism is correct, the problem is that better leaders do not equate to greater well-being for the world in general.

On the other hand, you start by assuming that the monarchy is worse than popular control for human well-being, but this is something you have to prove, for your part imperialism and conquest continue to exist with democracy, and peaceful coexistence together self-determination already existed before democracy.

Exactly, you would look at the rating, in democracy what matters is popularity.

Bones

11.04.2021 09:09PM

Con

You showed that measuring the well-being of a country based on the number of wars is insufficient, but not ineffective

I have shown that it is ineffective, because if we were to measure well-being on number of wars, sea slugs would be rated above us.

there are people who would defend that primitive humans had a higher level of well-being

The work my opponent provided is a manifesto written by a lad named "unabomber". It is neither scientific nor trustworthy.

If countries drop a nuclear bomb on every major city, they will soon have a social and economic crisis leading to civil wars.

No, they will all die.

his syllogism is correct, the problem is that better leaders do not equate to greater well-being for the world in general.

To recall, my opponent admits that the following

p1. People who have leadership skills are good at being good leaders.

p2. Men and women are equally good leadership skills.

c1. Therefore, men and women are good leaders.

is true however believes that being a leader does not mean that you will be a great leader. This is clearly nonsensical. The label "good leader" is given to those who show integrity, accountability, empathy, humility, resilience, vision, influence, and positivity. It is clear that these traits will enables one to make good decisions, hence them being labeled good leaders.

My opponent drops my point on discrimination and sexism hence I extend.

To note, the contention in this debate seems to be over what makes a good leader. I propose that leadership is key, whilst my opponent makes the case that empathy and compassion are more important. Were we to use this logic, we should ban men and women from positions of power, and instead elect children, as they are more prone to being empathic and moral. Is this what my opponent wants?

Round 4

elhombremasinteligente

11.05.2021 01:21AM

Pro

And if you think about it, sea slugs have a higher welfare than us, they have existed much longer than us, and they have never been at risk of extinction, unlike us, as I say, you have shown that it is not the only criterion , but failed to show that it is inefficient, since in most cases, countries with fewer wars will have more welfare.

His second argument is an ad hominem, a bomber had high university studies, and if you take the trouble to read the manifesto, you will see that it was very objective.

The problem however is that the characteristics that you mention refer to the relationship of a leader with each specific people, which means that a good leader can perfectly destroy other peoples and continue to be so.

leadership is key as leaders of each individual people, but not as benefactors of humanity.

Throughout history, there have been children who have ruled, in general, their reigns have not been bad.

https://www.history.com/news/6-child-monarchs-who-changed-history

Bones

11.07.2021 08:59AM

Con

And if you think about it, sea slugs have a higher welfare than us, they have existed much longer than us, and they have never been at risk of extinction, unlike us, as I say, you have shown that it is not the only criterion , but failed to show that it is inefficient, since in most cases, countries with fewer wars will have more welfare.

And yet none of this is a reason for us to vote for sea slugs as our presidents. To recall, this point was made in response to your logic that if a particular group of beings do not engage in conflict, they should be leaders. Thus I made the following comparison

PRO's logic: Women cooperate more and thus will not have wars. Therefore, as they will not have wars and this is a good thing, we should vote women.

CON's response: Sea Slugs cooperate more and thus will not have wars. Therefore, as they will not have wars and this is a good thing, we should vote Sea Slugs.

His second argument is an ad hominem, a bomber had high university studies, and if you take the trouble to read the manifesto, you will see that it was very objective.

It is not enough just give me a manifesto and say "if you don't read it then my claim stands". You bear the burden as you brought the source and thus it is your obligation to show me where you find his argument compelling. I do not need to prove negatives.

The problem however is that the characteristics that you mention refer to the relationship of a leader with each specific people, which means that a good leader can perfectly destroy other peoples and continue to be so.

But this is completely not my claim, I asserted that people who are good leaders are good leaders. This is a tautological truth which you are yet to refute.

leadership is key as leaders of each individual people, but not as benefactors of humanity.

This makes no sense at all. What is a leader of each individual people? This is not what I defined leader as. A leader is the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country. It is not a leader of individual people. If a study shows that people have good leadership skills, it means that they display characteristics which help them lead or commands a group, organization, or country.

Throughout history, there have been children who have ruled, in general, their reigns have not been bad.
https://www.history.com/news/6-child-monarchs-who-changed-history

This is a hasty generalisation fallacy. Just because there are some child leaders, does not mean that most children have the ability to lead countries.

Round 5

elhombremasinteligente

11.07.2021 02:08PM

Pro

First of all, my argument is not that they should, but that the world would be a better place, second, the logic of sea slugs cannot rule, since they are unable to communicate or give information, so sea slugs maybe they are more cooperative with each other, but they certainly are with us, again, this counterargument does not apply.

ted kaczinsky's manifesto is based on the fact that an increase in comfort increases boredom and with it depression, there are studies that indicate this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/01/26/why-the-super-successful-get-depressed.

Of course it is not his statement, it is my statement, and it is correct since a leader who is good at leading some people can still be destructive to others, I must not refute something that is not only true, but does not contradict my point.

a leader of an individual town is a leader of a place that is not divisible in several towns, let's not forget the etymological meaning of individuals (indivisible).

Most of the children mentioned did not rise to power because they were selected through an in-depth analysis of abilities, but because their parents died, a random form of selection, which can be used to say that most children probably had similar abilities.

I appreciate that someone of a level as high as yours agreed to debate with me.

Bones

11.20.2021 03:23AM

Con

#10

First of all, my argument is not that they should, but that the world would be a better place

This too me seems a semantic nit pick. Obviously, if you think the world is a better place with X, you would think that X should be implemented. Nevertheless, I can simply adjust my argument in a way where it would facilitate the term "better place". For example:

PRO's logic: Women cooperate more and thus will not have wars. Therefore, as they will not have wars and this is a good thing, voting for women will create a better place.

CON's response: Sea Slugs cooperate more and thus will not have wars. Therefore, as they will not have wars and this is a good thing, voting for sea slugs will create a better place.

Obviously, there are other factors besides cooperation which my opponent has neglected. Factors such as leadership, which studies indicate men and women are both equally capable of.

ted kaczinsky's manifesto is based on the fact that an increase in comfort increases boredom and with it depression, there are studies that indicate this
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/01/26/why-the-super-successful-get-depressed.

You're initial claim was that primitive humans have a higher level of well-being. Regardless of whether an increase in comfort results in boredom and depression, this does not support your primary claim.

second, the logic of sea slugs cannot rule, since they are unable to communicate or give information

Exactly my point. There are other factors which need to be considered, such a communication skills, when considering how good a potential candidate is you cannot simply look at cooperation, which you seem to be doing. When we do consider these other factors, we find that men and women are equally good leaders.

it is correct since a leader who is good at leading some people can still be destructive to others

Here, my opponent redefines what being a leader is. Having leadership skills does not mean that you are only good at leading some people, having leadership skills means that you are, on balance, a competent leader. When my scientific study indicates that men are women are equally good leaders, this does not mean that they are only good at leading X people, it means that they are good leaders.

I wish to add that my opponent has dropped my argument about this rule being blatantly sexist and discriminatory against men.

Thx for a good debate.

Incel-chud

01.31.2022 08:57PM

#10

-->

@Bones

Debate which part, that the world sucks or that it is ruled by women?

I would be down for the second part, given we limit it to the western world. I don't need a debate devolving into whether or not women in Afghanistan are persecuted or not.

Bones

01.31.2022 08:54PM

-->

@Incel-chud

Just realised you're Wylted and not a DrLebonski alt.

Bones

01.31.2022 08:51PM

-->

@Incel-chud

Want to debate that?

Incel-chud

01.31.2022 03:37PM

The world is ruled by women, and it sucks

RationalMadman

11.24.2021 10:54AM

-->

@Bones

it is a complex vote, you never defined 'better' and I want to be precise on why the winner won.

Bones

11.24.2021 12:09AM

-->

@RationalMadman

3 days. This vote realistically shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to cast.

Bones

11.21.2021 10:14AM

-->

@RationalMadman

Plz don't forget to vote.

Bones

11.01.2021 10:18AM

-->

@RationalMadman

Plz don't forget to vote.

elhombremasinteligente

11.01.2021 04:04AM

-->

@RationalMadman

good point, thanks.

RationalMadman

11.01.2021 03:41AM

-->

@elhombremasinteligente

you should have 3 judges, this way it won't end in a tie (unless the judge ties it) but one biased judge can't ruin it.

It should be that you both agree on one and the opponent and you pick the other 2 personally.

RationalMadman

11.24.2021 02:46PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Neither side successfully defined 'better' in this entire debate nor properly connected their case back to said qualitative measure. This means the debate is actually tied but neither side wants that so I'll look further.

Just to be clear, I am 100% serious when I say that this debate can be considered a semantics-based tie due to that. Not even the description of the debate properly explored what classifies one thing as better than another or not.

Con's case is basically an extremely defensive Kritik repeated over and over. The idea in Con's case is that he will concede that women lead more cooperatively and then deny that this is better.

Pro's case is that women lead more cooperatively and result in less wars but the biggest issue is that his case transforms into one about primitive humans being superior to modern civlisations in their leadership style.

One thing to consider, just as a reader without noticing Con's rebuttals, is that primitive humans were brutally masculine and aggressive in how they were led, compared to now.

What happens though, is that Pro doesn't properly tackle what Con throws at him. For starters, Pro never quite addresses the idea that Con presents regarding the matter of men and women not needing to be an either/or thing.

What Pro could have done is accuse Con of semantics abuse, pointing out that some in the leadership could still be men, it's a question of if it was mainly women (or even only women) would it be better, not if this was the absolute best.

Currently, the world has a lot of male adults but just as Con later points out, to say women should lead instead because there'll be less wars could be considered akin to saying sea slugs leading will result in less wars.

Pro does point out that unlike women, sea slugs won't communicate properly with humans however the overall gist of Con's case is that Pro's singular approach (the less wars angle) can't simply be the way we determine that if all leaders were women, the world will be better off.

Both sides truly failed to define or link to what 'better' is, I note that Con actually didn't prove what's truly better about the world led by men nor a mix but Pro's case takes too many strange twists and turns to be deemed valid. Whatever Con throws at Pro, Pro just tries to avoid, instead of pushing further on why the resolution is true he keeps focusing on why the reason it's wrong isn't too much of a reason.