Instigator / Pro
6
1627
rating
37
debates
66.22%
won
Topic
#3249
Gen 4 OU is the best Generation of OU Competitive Pokemon
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 2 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...
RationalMadman
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
14
1702
rating
574
debates
67.86%
won
Description
BOP is shared.
Opponent must argue in favor of another generation being superior to Gen 4 OU.
OU- the tier of Pokemon under Ubers and above UU. Teams in the tier may include Pokemon ranked under OU (UU, NU, PU, etc.) but not Ubers, which are stronger than OU Pokemon.
Best- of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality.
Competitive Pokemon- player versus player battles that take place using the Pokémon video games (or battle emulators). Players construct a team of Pokémon as defined by a specific set of rules and battle as they would in the game until all Pokémon on a player's team have fainted or when a player resigns.
Please ask for further clarification before accepting.
Round 1
Forfeited
Forfeited
Round 2
Gen 4 had the physical-special split.
- first gen to have it
-made moves more intuitive
-- I.e pre gen 4, thunderpunch and thunderbolt were both special attacks by virtue of being electric type. Starting in gen 4, t-punch was a physical attack, and t-bolt became a special attack.
- gen 4 was last gen before team preview.
-- from gen 5 on, team preview removed the element of surprise from the game.
-- team preview destroyed the role of designated lead
-- team preview lowered the strategic difficulty of winning battles by showing everyone's full team before the battle, instead of only showing Pokemon you revealed through the course of the battle.
- gen 4 had an incredibly balanced meta
-- it won't let me show you the statistics unless you're logged into my account[1], but in 1,757 gen 4 ou battles, across over 30 teams I constructed, Ive won 883 and lost 874. A 50.2% win rate. This indicates that I'm either a mediocre player, or the Meta is very balanced.
In conclusion, gen 4 is the most strategically involved, well balanced, most intuitive generation for competitive Pokemon. It perfectly synthesized everything good about Pokemon battles, after the physical special split, and before team preview.
- gen 4 was last gen before team preview.
Removing the element of surprise from the game increases the capacity which game knowledge can give the more skilled player an edge over an otherwise lucky and/or overpowered player.
team preview lowered the strategic difficulty of winning battles by showing everyone's full team before the battle, instead of only showing Pokemon you revealed through the course of the battle.
Wrong, it increased the very thing you are saying it decreased because now you couldn't simply win because your opponent expected the wrong thing despite knowing what to do and how to correctly counter (or avoid being countered) by you. It also forces people to use more balanced combinations of pokemon and powers, since if they go for over the top 'if it work it works amazing but if the player correctly plays I get screwed' combinations.
it won't let me show you the statistics unless you're logged into my account[1], but in 1,757 gen 4 ou battles, across over 30 teams I constructed, Ive won 883 and lost 874. A 50.2% win rate. This indicates that I'm either a mediocre player, or the Meta is very balanced.
Meta is an illusion unless there's extreme overpowering. When you judge the meta only by winrates instead of the 'why' behind the winrates, it can totally ignore something beyond meta causing it. If a very high skill-cap pokemon is hard to pull off but very rewaridng to those who do, this never can be communicated solely by winrate analysis. Alternatively, if a ridiculously easy-to-learn character is only high winrate because it's easy and weaker players don't correctly counter it, this will appear to be overpowered (which it may or may not be) in winrate instead of just 'perhaps we need to make it more complex a little rather than just nerf its stats'.
Meta isn't really a significantly provable factor nor is 'balanced meta' always superior. Sometimes something can be great while it wasn't the most balanced meta, just by how fun or pleasurable it was to play in that era/gen. Gen 4 inherently had to be kind of unbalanced to still have such winrates because as you say preview wasn't there and you can only truly judge meta in games that enable some level of pregame preparation for opponents combos of pokemon and thus elements+powers, that then means the winrates are closer to meta rather than just lucky or easier combos working too bad or too well depending and skewing it.
Gen 4 had the physical-special split.- first gen to have it
Sure, I am representing Gen 5.
You see, something you avoided to mention is storyline and depth of what you can do in the game.
I will use this source for a lot of my analysis: https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/6ss5bn/a_detailed_analysis_of_pokemon_gen_5_and_why_i/
Gen 5 began to involve the gym leaders into the story, a completely ignored element of both story and gameplay in other generations.
Gen 5 also not only had many new pokemon but specifically avoided allowing players to stick to tried and true methods from the past by only letting older pokemon be playable towards the ending of the game. You were forced to try out the newer pokemon and invent/adapt rather than just stick to methods others already had discovered for you worked. It was a super evolving meta throughout (which is more interesting and fun than rigid but balanced meta, at times).
artwork
The art direction throughout the Generation Five titles, and the Unova region as a whole, is beautiful.The pixel art in both battles and the overworld is incredibly detailed. Everything feels alive and real. The impression the games make just from the beginning is huge. Features such as the seasons gimmick really help to drive home just how great the art of these titles was....With advancements for the series such as full, animated cutscenes, Generation Five really brought Pokémon to the next level. While the games were still very much sprite-based, the amount of details paid to every single area of the overworld and battles is huge. Small but important details such as animated sprites for all Pokémon and the aforementioned seasons really made these games look stunning, and made them unforgettable in terms of the polish they delivered upon.
The music of Generation Five is arguably the best of any generation. While the Reshiram and Zekrom battle theme is literally the biggest bop that has ever been delivered by anyone and is better than the entire music industry as a whole, much of the soundtrack is very calm and peaceful. There are also many different areas of the game where you can talk to musicians that will add their instrument into the current track, which is a fantastic way to really integrate the music into the gameplay. Overall, the fantastic soundtrack is full of up-tempo and down-tempo tracks that make every single area of the games feel different and special.
I feel the same way. I love nearly all of Gen 5's pokemon. They just all "clicked" you know? I always found a lot of Gen's 1-2 pokemon kind of boring or bland but they weren't bad. Gen 5's just seemed like a more colorful Gen 1. I know people don't care for the really detailed mons but Pokemon is fantastical so the creatures can be too.
The region was so full of life, too. Every nook and cranny had something and many areas had little places to explore. And the seasons... beautiful. BRING IT BACK. I can't wait for gen 5 remakes!
Round 3
Forfeited
Aesthetics, new pokemon like none before, involvement of the gym owners in the storyline... This is the revolution, this is Gen 5!
does this debate count as FF by Pro?
If so, will you vote? Thanks
That was a fun debate. I love combat sports and I gathered a lot of great material for that debate.
Kung Fu vs Wrestling, Round 2 grapple is overrated. ;)
Ah man, I am so sorry for missing the deadline. I really thought I could squeeze this argument in this week, But I guess not. I'm willing to continue this debate if you are, or you can just have the w, and I'll recreate this debate, it's up to you.