If we fully deny that biological sex is attached to gender, as well as deny that there are 2 of them (as opposed to 0 or infinite), we cannot properly uphold the cause of Feminism.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After not so many votes...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Full self-identification as male or female (or one of these genderfluid variants) doesn't take away from the fact that being born female-sex puts you at a societal and statistical disadvantage.
You cannot fight patriarchy if you deny there are two sexes (which link to gender-based oppression that affects girls from a very young age but don't affect males the same way).
Also, the struggle of trans people is a separate, unique kind of suffering that has different 'beef' and issues with the patriarchy and bigotry, than cis-females have (for different reasons, this applies both to childhood, adolescence and adulthood).
It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
- Feminism - "The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." [A]
- Transgender - "adj. having or relating to a gender identity that differs from the culturally determined gender roles for one’s birth sex (i.e., the biological sex one was born with) or for one’s sex as surgically assigned at birth." [B]
- Transexualism - "n. a condition consisting of a persistent sense of discomfort and inappropriateness relating to one’s anatomical sex, with a persistent wish to be rid of one’s genitals and to live as a member of the other sex. Those with this condition often seek to change their sex through surgical and hormonal means" [C]
- Attached - "Joined, fastened, or connected to something" [D]
- Uphold - "Maintain (a custom or practice)" [E]
- Cause - "A principle, aim, or movement to which one is committed and which one is prepared to defend or advocate." [F]
- Gender Roles - "the pattern of behavior, personality traits, and attitudes that define masculinity or femininity in a particular culture. It frequently is considered the external manifestation of the internalized gender identity, although the two are not necessarily consistent with one another." [G]
- Gender Identity - "one’s self-identification as male or female. Although the dominant approach in psychology for many years had been to regard gender identity as residing in individuals, the important influence of societal structures, cultural expectations, and personal interactions in its development is now recognized as well. Significant evidence now exists to support the conceptualization of gender identity as influenced by both environmental and biological factors." [H]
- My opponent must demonstrate both of the claims within the resolution
- Though my opponent is appealing to one specific feminism, the resolution clearly refers to feminism's in general
- In order for either Pro or Con to fulfill their BoP, they MUST demonstrate what the cause of feminism is
- CONT I - FEMINISM'S CAUSE
- CONT II - IMPACT OF GENDER IDENTITY
- REBUT I - WOKE USED AS AN ADJECTIVE
- REBUT II - GENDER IDENTITY & GENDER ROLES
"feminism is both an intellectual commitment and a political movement that seeks justice for women and the end of sexism in all forms. Motivated by the quest for social justice, feminist inquiry provides a wide range of perspectives on social, cultural, economic, and political phenomena." [1]
"That is fantastic but once we begin to count people who were born male and want to be called she/her as female and let them rob females of world records and medals, what is that? I wonder why trans men are not wanting to be identified as their trans gender in sports."
"This was of course not a major issue early on, since earlier on trans people were essentially drag queens or females who cut their hair short and had a butch sense in fashion, meaning both identified as the same 'gender' as their 'birth sex' would imply. A drag queen would admit 'he' was a 'he' quite happily/readily when asked and a butch dressing female would do the same with 'she'. The prounouns actually were a source of pride and happiness for both. The idea being liberating what it meant to be a man or woman. A man could dress in a skirt, wear lipstick and be proud of his cock and masculinity regardless. A woman could cut her hair short, wear a shirt instead of a blouse, wear trousers, be assertive and proud of her vagina regardless."
"The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels. Yet these state bills would force them to play with the boys. Plus, the athletic advantage conferred by testosterone is equivocal. As Katrina Karkazis, a senior visiting fellow and expert on testosterone and bioethics at Yale University explains, “Studies of testosterone levels in athletes do not show any clear, consistent relationship between testosterone and athletic performance. Sometimes testosterone is associated with better performance, but other studies show weak links or no links. And yet others show testosterone is associated with worse performance.” The bills’ premises lack scientific validity." [2]
"Along with psychologists like Stoller, feminists found it useful to distinguish sex and gender. This enabled them to argue that many differences between women and men were socially produced and, therefore, changeable. Gayle Rubin (for instance) uses the phrase ‘sex/gender system’ in order to describe “a set of arrangements by which the biological raw material of human sex and procreation is shaped by human, social intervention”" [3]
- Transgender - "adj. having or relating to a gender identity that differs from the culturally determined gender roles for one’s birth sex (i.e., the biological sex one was born with) or for one’s sex as surgically assigned at birth." [B]
- Gender Roles - "the pattern of behavior, personality traits, and attitudes that define masculinity or femininity in a particular culture. It frequently is considered the external manifestation of the internalized gender identity, although the two are not necessarily consistent with one another." [G]
- Gender Identity - "one’s self-identification as male or female. Although the dominant approach in psychology for many years had been to regard gender identity as residing in individuals, the important influence of societal structures, cultural expectations, and personal interactions in its development is now recognized as well. Significant evidence now exists to support the conceptualization of gender identity as influenced by both environmental and biological factors." [H]
"T. A person who has 'transitioned' went from the gender associated with their birth sex to the other/opposite one" [Pro-Round 1]
"Men become women or women become men, that is the entire way that 'transitioning' was the word that later was shortened to 'trans' evolved" [Pro-Round 1]
"When someone hates their body to the level they want to pay a surgeon to mutilate their genitalia beyond recognitin and also beyond any positive use, in order to mimic that of the other biological sex, we are not allowed to say they have issues with their self-esteem, nor are we able to suggest they get psychiatric care. On the other hand, these same people are able to admit they have a mental disorder 'gender dysphoria' in order to justify you leaving them alone." [Pro-Round 1]
"Okay, so I do actually have an issue with both, why can't the trans woman admit 'she' s a very feminine male? Why can't the trans man admit 'he' is a very masculine female"
"I will tell you why. It is because they both have ironically caved in and enabled gender roles by what they've done. Instead of going 'I am a male who likes my hair long and to wear makeup and watch chick flicks and do things many females do' this male-sex individual has gone and said 'I am a female because I do these things that society has branded as something women do and I want you to accept me for doing them so please call me she/her'. This individual probably experiences a lot of bullying and teasing for being as feminine as they are (sometimes by females, not just males and sometimes their own parents). So, they seek to transition in order to escape the hellish situation, they seek to blend in with the other gender by taking hormones and undergoing plastic surgeries of varying complexities to pass as that gender. "
"Do not let them think you need to go by 'she' or 'her'. You don't. You are a man and you are feminine and that is perfectly okay. I do not understand why gender dysphoria is officially able to be a mental disorder people admit they have and then we can't help them treat it and handle it."
- Inner Guide
- 1a - Feminism's Cause
- 1b - Impact of Gender Identity
Generally speaking - the definition provided by me outlines the aims of feminism - recall: "The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." As the definition provided by Lexico - though despite this definition by authoritative sources - to bolster and elaborate what feminism is is the encyclopedia of philosophy's excerpt regarding what Feminism seeks to cause:"feminism is both an intellectual commitment and a political movement that seeks justice for women and the end of sexism in all forms. Motivated by the quest for social justice, feminist inquiry provides a wide range of perspectives on social, cultural, economic, and political phenomena." [1]
This implies that the reason we wish for equity among sexes is that there is a genetic component to sex and that without that genetic component there would be no proper feminism, which.. further implies that the reason that feminists want equity among sexes is that they are genetically determined to be women. I could interpret this as Pro arguing that feminism is valid because women do not "choose" to be oppressed. To be blunt, this is all bullshit. There is no genetic foundation for the equity of sexes, if anything - the fact that there is sexual dimorphism is the cause of discrimination against women - the foundation for the equity of sexes is one of ethics and morals it would be a non-sequitur to conclude that genetics is the root of equity whenever those same genetics are the entire reason that women are oppressed generally. To be clear - I am not saying that genetics the broad scientific concept is the cause of female discrimination, I am saying that how people view genetics is the cause of female discrimination. Specifically, that women adhere to stereotypes based on misinterpreting genetic data.
- Equal treating of the sexes
- prevent things that would stop said equity
- the root of egalitarian treatment is a biological imperative
- the root of egalitarian treatment is the exclusiveness of gender
This implies that the reason we wish for equity among sexes is that there is a genetic component to sex and that without that genetic component there would be no proper feminism, which.. further implies that the reason that feminists want equity among sexes is that they are genetically determined to be women. I could interpret this as Pro arguing that feminism is valid because women do not "choose" to be oppressed. To be blunt, this is all bullshit. There is no genetic foundation for the equity of sexes, if anything - the fact that there is sexual dimorphism is the cause of discrimination against women - the foundation for the equity of sexes is one of ethics and morals it would be a non-sequitur to conclude that genetics is the root of equity whenever those same genetics are the entire reason that women are oppressed generally.
That is to say that the fact that gender isn't necessarily equitable to biological components, and that there are more than two genders actually improve the equity of women to men, and help prevent further discrimination. The notion that what society views as our gender is our gender propagates ideas of natural hierarchies among sexes - that because you are born as A - you should act as B - gender identity fights against this notion - it objects that you were even born as A - A here can be what is identified as the sex of an individual, or it can be the stereotype of that sex, either way - the idea of a hierarchy is fought against....the concept of there being non-biological based sex or gender will, in general, fight against gender differentiation and harmful stereotypes. The mere concept of these things helps bolster the equity of the sexes and stops further discrimination - which of course means that you can uphold the causes of feminism.
- Inner Guide
- 2a - Woke used as as Adjective
- 2b - Gender Identity & Gender Roles
The deep irony here is obvious to me. My opponent has a problem whenever people don't coincide with the concepts that society puts onto them, whenever someone insists that they have a right to their identity- -if that is not the core root of what Feminism is, then it has changed since I last read that encyclopedia page....Pro does not seem to actually understand gender identity. It is not as if such a thing is a choice - one does not "choose" to be female or male, they simply are - and as it happens what society associates as their gender are simply wrong. Similar, one might say, to how what people assume of women to be capable of are simply wrong.
- "Pro does not seem to actually understand gender identity. It is not as if such a thing is a choice - one does not "choose" to be female or male, they simply are - and as it happens what society associates as their gender are simply wrong"
"The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously.17 The biological basis of gender identity cannot be modelled in animals and is best studied in people who identify with a gender that is different from the sex of their genitals, in particular transsexual people. Several extensive reviews by Dick Swaab and coworkers elaborate the current evidence for an array of prenatal factors that influence gender identity, including genes and hormones.18–20" (2)
- Transgender - "adj. having or relating to a gender identity that differs from the culturally determined gender roles for one’s birth sex (i.e., the biological sex one was born with) or for one’s sex as surgically assigned at birth." [B]
- Gender Roles - "the pattern of behavior, personality traits, and attitudes that define masculinity or femininity in a particular culture. It frequently is considered the external manifestation of the internalized gender identity, although the two are not necessarily consistent with one another." [G]
- Gender Identity - "one’s self-identification as male or female. Although the dominant approach in psychology for many years had been to regard gender identity as residing in individuals, the important influence of societal structures, cultural expectations, and personal interactions in its development is now recognized as well. Significant evidence now exists to support the conceptualization of gender identity as influenced by both environmental and biological factors." [H]
Pro fundamentally misunderstands - this is as if someone were arguing - "You are a heterosexual who isn't attracted to females, and you should own that! Don't go have sex with other guys!" You are talking about denying a fundamental identity - research has definitively demnstrated. Pro makes it sounds as if society is making them identify with their gender identity- this is absurd, transpeople identify with the gender THEY feel are true, AGAINST society - the mere fact that Pro does not like women who are more masculine does not mean that transpeople somehow hurt feminism.Notice Voters, that the majority of Pro's arguments have nothing to do with the resolution - where he has he demonstrated that identifying gender as not genetic inhibits feminism? Where has he even mentioned the number of genders? Notice voters, that Pro has not even brought up these points, he instead goes on a massive red herring that isn't even true. If Pro can actually affirm his resolution, I will grant more direct responses, until then this general rebuttal ought to do.
Which one you're more geared towards is not changing your biological sex.
Sorry for not voting dude, I would have if I saw this debate. Very well done, even if I don't necessarily agree.
Not sure how I missed this one. I would have voted…
High praise, thanks, I just try to do my best- though admittedly, I have barely any time nowadays cuz' of summer semester college classes.
This isn't the first debate you've been in with regards to trans people I've read. You're doing wonderfully! Better than I would sometimes, even, haha
I would personally disagree, but I understand your position. I'd be happy to have a discussion or debate about if you'd ever like to!
Ya know, this is a tad sad RMM, this is entirely your debate that I agreed to debate with you - and you still gave up - another one in a long trend.
Thank you for the compliment! I hope I could accurately represent trans-identity, being cis, I try to do as much research and interview prior, but there are definitely cases where I've missed things.
You are trans and still are the biological sex you were born as no matter what gender you TRANSfer to.
Society should adapt to care for your feelings regarding gender, not to denying your biological sex. Once we're at a stage where admitting or discussing the latter is taboo, we are at a stage where wrong medicine can be administered to someone and wrongly earned medals in female-sex sports are given to a biological male-sex female-gender individual.
Hoo boy. Being trans, I have a lot to say on this topic, but rather than do that, I just wanted to say that this a great debate from both of you. It was very interesting to read!
RMM
Transwomen go through sexism... arguably more than cis-women - furthermore - again -it is an unempirical claim to say that "trans-women steal trophies", please refer to the evidence I've posted in my round to that claim, and in the Gender Dysphoria forum
I'm specifically referring to sports and affirmative action quotas. Those are the two primary clashes.
-RMM
Wrong to all - trans-women, typically, do not rob anything from cis-women - you're just empirically wrong there bud.
So, norm or not, do you agree or disagree with denying that trans-female athlete the eight to rob cis females of their medals? Yes or no.
In an official form that asks for your sex, some want an 'other' or 'prefer not to say' option, while others will lie.
It is considered transphobic to count a trans male as female sex in an affirmative action stat and vice versa with trans females.
Trans people are outliers, among some within them, it's becoming more the norm as things become more dictated by an agenda that involves denying gender even exists, let alone biological sex.
RMM
Your anecdotes and outliers literally mean nothing to me - I have already proven empirically that this is not usually the case. You can go on and on about it, but ultimately it only reveals your bias.
one of many growing conflicts between feminism and 'full-on trans acceptance' that do occur.
I must reiterate, I am not transphobic, I am just not afraid to make a trans person admit what their biological sex is for OFFICIAL things that separate and study the statistics of people based on that, while absolutely respecting their pronouns.
When a Male-to-female can rob cis females of their medals (or even the FtM, because the opposite usually prefer to stay in the female sports, though exceptions to occur) it's an unfair advantage because of the undeniable DNA advantage (for trans females) and testosterone muscle-hardness etc advantage of trans males who still want to compete as females.
The problem is that sports isn't the only place it happens, it's just where it's most blatant. When trans females become counted as females for official affirmative action quotas, there is absolutely 100% an undeniable conflict. When a trans woman can enter a female washroom/bathroom, it defeats the core basis and purpose of such female-only safe zones, however I do understand why a trans female would feel uncomfortable entering a male-only bathroom/washroom and I am open to the idea of intersex bathrooms/washrooms becoming more commonplace to render it moot, however again this is only one blatant example. Let's say a group of women start a book club intended to not just be to discuss books but also a safe zone for the women to gossip (you cannot deny this happens, it's not sexist generalising it's a genuine thing females do), suddenly a trans female turns up and they reject her. They do not want to be branded as transphobic (and in no shape or form does this mean they are, since if they reject males from the book club or even another cis female, it doesn't mean they hate that person's gender identity), the problem is at what stage is society allowed and not allowed to blackmail those females to artificially need to feign social acceptance of someone to avoid being branded as something that can destroy their careers and livelihood.
This is happening already in certain places, namely in the UK with people such as JK Rowling who is very vocal of her stance. The issue here is that sexism is about sex, not gender. It used to be the two (sex and gender) were fairly identical so 'feminism' covered both at once, I agree to the idea that the term has to be more specifically defined as anti-sexism, not anti-genderism because it is indeed anti-sexism. Egalitarians include mens rights activists (which should be called masculists but that would maybe trigger some people as seeming offensive).
RMM
The purpose of said clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ-bO2GFJdg
Nicely done. I was inclined to also take con (in a different debate) due to not seeing the connection in premise, but pro tends to make a ton of very long dense arguments that are difficult to reduce logically.
I know it's not the best example of your strategy. It's just one that I was familiar with because I took the time to read and vote on it.
That is hardly a good example of my strategy in debates. I have a much stronger case in this debate but it depends how Con comes at me, in terms of how I structure each point and rebuttal.
It was this debate if you're curious.
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1710-resolved-individuals-have-a-moral-obligation-to-assist-people-in-need
RM is the guy who went into a debate on moral obligation with a first round that was an appeal to emotion in which he explicitly stated "No, seriously, I know I am appealing to your emotion." If what RM says in a debate is pure rhetoric, it's a fair bet that he knows it's rhetoric and there's a strategy behind it.
In a 5-Round debate, you don't put all your proof and strong pieces of information and preemptive rebuttal in Round 1, or at least I don't.
This is just... raw, unadulterated rhetoric, no proof, no substantiation - just some opinion peace and good ole' fashioned rhetoric. I'll have a blast taking this one apart- not actually -it kinda upsets me that you want me to take you seriously while you present an opinion peace as your substantiation here.
I made the same errors both times I said 'born as' but it isn't essential to the point I was making. I'll correct it in Round 2.
" to deny she is a female and that her birth sex was male "
I meant female for the second one, not male.
I'm currently doing this and a debate with Athias, plus IRL stuff, so I'll try - but understand that might, probably, wont' happen
Okay I changed it but please try for a week (just because it gets boring and frustrating if both sides fully drag out the two week thing)
I'd prefer the argument time to be two weeks - aside from that I'd be up for this
I'll give it a look over
This is a genuine attempt to write a fair debate topic for us to properly hash out our disagreement on the matter.