The best theory available for the loch ness monster is that it was probably a worm
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
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In this debate I require to defend my position in the title that the best theory available for the loch ness monster is that it was probably a worm.
My opponent in this round will need to establish to the voters beyond reasonable doubt that this is not the best theory available.
What constitutes best theory and reasonable doubt comes down to the discretion of the voters.
Also, I will not be accepting arguments over absurd definitions.
If one does not understand the definition in the title, please take it up in the comment section before accepting the debate.
Failure to do so results in an automatic win for me, without me even taking part in the debate.
Before describing my RFD, I must note the absurdity of both the Topic/Resolution, and how it was argued by Pro. I am to approach the Topic from a perspective of a best theory, and that theory’s validity by its virtue that the Loch Ness Monster was probably a worm. Qualification choices of best probability make too easy work by Pro to assume one can achieve victory in a debate when setting such a low bar for acceptance of argument, whatever that argument may be. Worse, in the Description, after snubbing what would normally be used to describe definitions, Pro declares he will not accept “absurd definitions.” Better to have offered, as Instigator, any definitions at all rather than declare definitions that Con may offer, lacking them from Pro, as “absurd.” Further insult is offered by Pro declaring “automatic win” should Con not understand “definition in the title,” which is, in fact, non-existent. If this is assumed to be a precursor to how this vote will proceed, consider this preamble to the Argument vote.
Argument: Pro’s argument contains such divergent material, [Cathbad, Twelve fathers, Fachtna Fathach, Two worms… all just in R1] that have little linkage to the Resolution subject, the Lock Ness Monster, other than Pro’s declaration of linkage [I am not convinced]. Trying to make the linkage borders on loss of legibility. Pro’s BoP ought to be simple to follow. Ought to be. I’m following the proverbial cow with its tail tied to a paintbrush, marking the road. The road is spaghetti noodles. This convoluted road asks me to find a best probability out of two worms swallowed by a young lass, making her pregnant, thus producing the son of a worm. It is common knowledge that two worms are necessary for worm coitus, but both worms carry male and female reproductive capability. It is a leap of probability to suggest that the digestive system of a human female and her reproductive system have any common tissue that would produce any offspring at all, assuming that there is even the most remote possibility that the two species, worm and human, have compatible genomes], is just a reach too far for this voter to grant the win to Pro, even if this tale is merely relegated to myth. Pro actually goes there in R2, R3, and discounts the myth, burying pro’s own argument of “best probability.” I cannot agree with Pro’s conclusion, “So, the loch ness monster was likely a worm.” Okay, it was not a declarative statement, but it does ask that I agree it is probable. No, not even remotely does it convince as a debate argument. Con capably rebutted the convoluted spaghetti-noodle exercise of historic dalliance of the characters noted above by Pro. Pro lost this argument in R1 if not in the description, and exacerbated the loss going forward. Points to Con.
Sources; Regardless of the absurdity of Pro’s argument, and the soundness of Con’s rebuttal, both used sources extensively. Tie.
Legibility: As noted above, Pro loses this point by the spaghetti-nature of the argument. I am constantly beset with inability to follow the sense of the Pro argument. It is, by another metaphor, a cat’s cradle. It did not need to be so complicated with a delirious history of characters, none of whom can be embraced, even, eventually, by Pro, himself. Pro loses this point to Con.
Conduct: By voting policy, which has a hard line relative to forfeiture, that even a single round forfeiture [while Con had 2 rounds of forfeiture, regardless of reason] requires a loss of conduct point. There is a 40% forfeiture rate rule in the Voting Policy [in this debate, 2 of 5 rounds forfeited is 40%], but that is not a loss of debate, but merely the threshold to decide to ignore argument points. I chose to engage the arguments anyway, which the Policy allows. Further, Pro’s conduct in the Description, which I found deplorable, I nevertheless regret to be driven by the forfeit rule to automatically offer the conduct point to Pro.
Well at least you appear to admit to grasping the concept. I could not admit to not grasping the concept either, even if I do not 100% agree with my own "theory".
Just so we are clear, I am not even sure if it's based on the Irish tale or not. I just debated.
100% disagree and words such as deplorable should not be getting thrown about lightly. Nor should accusations of me accusing others of using pedophilic undertones. Nor should I have to declare that I 100% believe in the theory I am arguing for when I don't. RationalMadman accepted the terms written in the description and therefore if I was awarded a conduct violation due to what was written in my description that should also be removed. "deplorable" really!
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>Reported Vote: fauxlaw // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 1 to pro, 4 to con.
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:
>Reason for Mod Action:
The vote was found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
The vote opens with good feedback on the setup, then gives direct criteria by criteria overview.
Arguments could have gotten into detail of cons case, but it points well to the core issue of pro's BoP type failure that even factoring in a ton of outside knowledge he still could not follow how it was trying to connect.
Note: Had this been done lazily or with malice, the vote would be removed; as is, it gave pro a ton of feedback which hopefully he can make use of for future debates on this topic or stylifically any other.
Sources are fairly tied.
Legibility for the manner in which pro assembled his case, making it (at least to the voter) comparatively burdensome to decipher (and with the amount of cited material, the voter clearly did try to decipher it).
Conduct to pro for the forfeitures, in spite of the voter finding some of his behavior deplorable (finding behavior outright deplorable, could have easily been used to justify leaving conduct tied; or worse if it was believed to have been bad enough to chase off the other debater).
This is overall a very useful vote in terms of feedback, with clear review over what happened and why it makes the point allocations to each side.
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Thank you for letting me know.
I've sent you a PM, where such discussion is more appropriate, but I've said my piece and will likely have nothing further to say about it.
If you do not wish to support your argument nor engage with me in friendly discussion then that is your perogative. I shall leave you in peace.
I refuse to continue this discussion. To probe further than what I've said is to go beyond my RFD, and that is not to be had. You may take or leave my other advice, which has naught to do with this debate, but your debate style in general, which is appropriate comment territory, and which is available for all to see in your many challenges. What is the probability of your taking my advice? Why don't you make a debate challenge about it? I'll not engage it.
Thank you for the assassination. However whilst you have put up a great argument, the debate was not Nevets v Fauxlaw. It was Nevets v RationalMadman and you never once mentioned RationalMadman in the comment below, and you "barely" gave him a mention in your explanation in the voting section. Nowhere did RationalMadman make any of the arguments "you" are arguing. Therefore, apart from not being able to support the facts he put over, such as the Picts drawing depictions of Nessie dating back to 500bc, and Ireland getting their legends from Iceland, which fact did you think RM was correct about?
My rationale was clearly indicated in the text of my RFD: the story of St. Columbia and the slave girl, like most of your exemplary characters you use as evidentiary argument, miss justification of the Resolution. What, exactly, have they to do with the Loch Ness Monster other than explaining that there were people inhabiting both Ireland and Scotland [though not yet known by those names] when the Loch Ness monster first has mention in either historic or mythic text. You lose on relevance to the Resolution.
Further, I note that many of your challenges contain the verbiage "probably" or "likely," or other indefinite terms which are poor constructs of debate protocol, at least on this site. Either take a positive or negative stand, or don't bother. I also note that many of your challenges go wanting for opposition. I wonder why? You have a backbone, I presume. Use it. Take a stand and live with the results. "Probably" is a spineless worm, and Nessie never had that accusation.
You merely said RM's argument was better but you did not establish which argument was better nor how it was better. You also agree that I accused RationalMadman of writing with Pedophilic undertones. Can you please clarify how you come to this conclusion, as I was referring to the story of St Columba and the wizard with the Irish slave girl. Not RationalMadman.
>> RationalMadman [you have me blocked; unfairly in my book]
Yes, as soon as I posted, I realized I had not noted the Legibility correctly. It has been corrected. By the way, I disagree with Ragnar's assessment of the whole pedophile issue. I saw no purpose in Pro's mention of the issue - totally irrelevant to the debate, therefore, one must question Pro's motivation. I disagree with Ragnar's dismissal.
Thanks for the vote.
You didn't actually award the legibility point to Con but I am happier you didn't as it was borderline anyway, so your point allocation is more solid.
I certainly did not accuse him of any such thing Ragnar.
He produced the source from Wikipedia regarding St Columba's loch ness sighting as proof that the loch ness monster legend dates back to before the story of Ness was even told (even though mythology holds that it dates to 1AD) and I responded that this story actually also contains a story about an Irish slave girl being held captive by a wizard. It was the story I was suggesting contained Pedophilic underetones, not RM's writing as I am aware RationalMadman did not even know about the full story of St Columba's account. On top of that I produced evidence that St Columba's story is believed to not have been a true story, but instead plagiarized from Irish legends.
Regarding complaints of misconduct:
Pro's case is weird with the side tangents. The level of focus on ancient child molesters, makes my mind jump to him using "worm" as a slang for that. However, that line of reasoning was present in his R1, and he never seemed to accuse con of being an a 1500 year old irish wizard, so the accusation that the Irish wizard Broichan was such a vile man, does not infer any accusation of con sharing in such depravity.
It is written below in the story of St Columba that you quoted that he encountered a wizard that was keeping an Irish slave girl captive. It is part of the story that you brought up in your argument. The story has Pedophilic undertones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Ness#Miscellanea
According to Adomnán, when Columba visited King Bridei I of Pictland at his house on the River Ness, he met a wizard named Broichan who had an Irish slave-girl that he refused to release even though Columba pleaded with him. Columba went out of Bridei's house and picked up a white pebble from the river. He said that the pebble would be used to heal many sick people in Pictland, and that Broichan was suffering for his sins at that very moment. After he had finished speaking, two messengers came to tell them that Broichan had a seizure and they wanted Columba to help them. Columba gave them the stone and said to dip it in water to give to Broichan, if he agreed to release the slave-girl. He agreed to do so, and the stone was put in water and it floated on it; the wizard drank from the water and was healed. This stone was kept by King Bridei in the royal treasury for the rest of his life, and anyone who came there for healing would be given water with the stone floating in it, and they would be healed.[18]
The story of St Columba has Paedophilic undertones. Where did I accuse rationalmadman of this?
You are permanently blocked.
I am not fucking okay with being mocked and accused of writing anything with pedophilic undertones. This is fucking bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagarflj%C3%B3t
You'd probably be interested in this
As much as anything else it is to guard against those that would take on a debate and argue over some absurd definition. I try to make it clear that the debate is about me defending the claim in the title and my opponent disproving that claim.
Beyond reasonable doubt? Do you have any idea how difficult that is? Please make it the civil court case burden of proof instead