Instigator / Pro
49
1485
rating
92
debates
45.65%
won
Topic
#2975
Jesus was a false prophet
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 7 votes and with 47 points ahead, the winner is...
David
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
2
1483
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Description
In this debate, I will attempt to prove that Jesus was a false prophet by Biblical standards. My opponent must prove he was a true prophet.
Rounds:
1. Opening arguments only
2. Rebuttals only
3. Defense
4. Closing argument
Round 1
I want to begin by thanking PeanutHut for accepting this debate and I wish to extend him a warm welcome to DART. With that, let's get started.
I. Criteria of a False Prophet
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (NRSV) establishes the criteria for a false prophet:
21 You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” 22 If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.
Thus we can establish a valid syllogism as followed:
P1: Anyone whose prophecies fail to come true is a false prophet
P2: Jesus' prophecy about his return failed
C1: Therefore, Jesus was a false prophet.
II. What Jesus Prophecied
Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life? 27 “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
There are several points to note here:
(1) Son of Man will return
(2) Repay everyone for what has been done
(3) Some will not die before this happens
It should be obvious that all three parts of this prophecy failed. Some have taken this to mean that Jesus was prophecying about his transfiguration, which took place in the next chapter, but this cannot be as "he will repay everyone for what has been done" did not occur at the transfiguration.
Matthew 24
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he[g] is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Jesus foretells of his return within that generation. This too has failed. Many Christian apologists have been disturbed by these failures and have attempted to make rescue devices to save face. The NABRE admits:
"24:34 The difficulty raised by this verse cannot be satisfactorily removed by the supposition that this generation means the Jewish people throughout the course of their history, much less the entire human race. Perhaps for Matthew it means the generation to which he and his community belonged." [1]
The NET Bible, 2nd edition, notes:
sn This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to interpret. Various views exist for what generation means. (1) Some take it as meaning “race” and thus as an assurance that the Jewish race (nation) will not pass away. But it is very questionable that the Greek term γενεά (genea) can have this meaning. Two other options are possible. (2) Generation might mean “this type of generation” and refer to the generation of wicked humanity. Then the point is that humanity will not perish, because God will redeem it. Or (3) generation may refer to “the generation that sees the signs of the end” (v. 30), who will also see the end itself. In other words, once the movement to the return of Christ starts, all the events connected with it happen very quickly, in rapid succession. [2]
These are certainly creative solutions that don't line up with the text.
Conclusion
Jesus' prophecy about his return failed, hence Jesus is a false prophet.
Sources
Forfeited
Round 2
Extend all arguments
Forfeited
Round 3
Extend
Forfeited
Round 4
The end
Forfeited
I would really like to vote on this debate, but I am in such broad disagreement with David's argument here, particularly in view of my previous commentary #4, and that this is a clear full forfeiture for which others have already voted sufficiently to assure David the victory on that basis, alone. My vote would merely add to my stats without real benefit to David. Sorry, David, but I'm sure you understand my position. I would have really enjoyed having the debate myself. If you want to revisit it, I'd be glad to engage, even though I've offered up one argument, already. I'd really be interested in. your rebuttal. Interested at some point in the future?
It is argued that Matt 24: 34 is a difficult verse to interpret. Yes, it is when one attempts to do so by cherry-picking the verse on its own. But the set up begins verses earlier, specifically at verse 3, when the entire discussion begins at the Mount of Olives, and many signs are given of the [second] coming of the Lord. We still await some of those signs, such as the sun darkening in concert with the moon turning red. Typically, a red moon is caused by a lunar eclipse, the result of being in Earth's shadow, but that is not the only cause of a red moon. It can also turn red when Earth's atmosphere's air molecules scatter blue light more than usual. If that occurs in conjunction with a darkening sun [it can], then we have the sign foretold. Hasn't happened, yet. Other signs are given, that haven't happened, yet, either. It is THIS [that is, that still future generation] the "difficult" verse speaks of, not the generation of the first century C.E.
All the effort of defining the Greek term γενεά (genea), was a red herring argument. As usual, cherry picking solves very little and is the primary reason that some say verse 34 is difficult to interpret. Words mean things, yes, but context, such as including the previous 31 verses to capture the whole story, is just as important, if not more so.
While you've automatically lost at this point due to forfeitures, I'm sure David would gladly do a rematch.
Also you are still free to make closing statements.
Sounds like communism.
He split five loaves of bread and two fish amongst 5000 people.
That's what I call real profit.