Instigator / Pro
Intelligence_06's avatar
0
Intelligence_06
1737
rating
172
debates
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Topic
#2787

Resolved: Taiwan is not a sovereign nation

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
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Better sources
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After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Tags
Politics
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
Crocodile's avatar
0
Crocodile
1436
rating
22
debates
38.64%
won
Description

Sovereign Nation: A politically organized group that has superior and above-all power to rule a piece of land, in this case, this piece of land:
http://www.nationsonline.org/maps/taiwan-map.jpg

BoP: shared
Pro: Taiwan is NOT a sovereign nation
Con: Taiwan IS a sovereign nation

Round 1
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#1
Resolved: Taiwan is not a sovereign nation



1: Sovereign nation

What is to be agreed on is that Taiwan can independently manage political and economical issues with little Mainland Chinese intervention. It is basically a truism. We know that it is a "country" essentially due to the definition stating that a country is a country as long it has organized population and organized territory, etc[1]. So, according to the definition, the state of Minnesota is a country, but not one of sovereignty because the United States has the highermost power to rule the entirity of Minnesota[2].

In order for one country to be a sovereign nation, one must declare independence. That is also a truism as that a piece of land that officially belongs to some other government couldn't be sovereign in of itself.

According to reputable sources, the People's Republic of China is the successor to Republic of China[3]. What this means is that since Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China pre-1949, it would automatically belong to People's Republic of China. This means that Taiwan wasn't independent from 1949 to now. Even if you use another theory instead of this one, it would mean that the "RoC Government" actually has no territory, meaning that Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation this way either[4]

Taiwan, or "Republic of China", has not declared independence over itself[5]. That says everything.

What does it take?

If it only takes a nation declaring itself to be independent for itself to be sovereign, then I could print a flag, pass souvenirs, print a bill, and declare that my house is now an independent nation. That obviously doesn't work.

If it only takes a few UN member states to recognize it to make a nation sovereign, then Abkazia is also a sovereign nation, even though only a small percentage of nations admit that it is independent[6]. However, the fact that the UN recognizes neither Abkazia nor Taiwan as a sovereign nation[7] means that under the world, Taiwan isn't one.

What has more power? A UN Council state(PRC China) or a "nation" in question that isn't inside the UN? The UN has admitted that China has sovereignty over Taiwan[8], meaning that it is true that on balance, Taiwan is not a sovereign nation.

Conclusions
  • Taiwan has not declared independence legally, meaning that it could not be a sovereign nation
  • The UN has decided that People's Republic of China has sovereignty over Taiwan
  • Thus, Taiwan is not a sovereign nation
  • VOTE PRO
Sources
[5]https://kd.youth.cn/a/VEdJ438xyYyDaR3(There is no "war" happening in Taiwan, and the Beijing Government is talking hypothetically)
[7]ibid
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
Con
#2
Thanks to Intelligence_06 for starting this debate and I hope we can have a good discussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RESOLVED: TAIWAN IS NOT A SOVEREIGN NATION
Preamble:
  • Definitions
    • I accept my opponent’s definitions of the word “sovereign”.
    • I would like to add a better and more specific definition of Sovereign nation:
      • The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference. [1]
      • Sovereignty is the power of a state to do everything necessary to govern itself, such as making, executing, and applying laws; imposing and collecting taxes; making war and peace; and forming treaties or engaging in commerce with foreign nations.[1]
    • The definition of Taiwan is:
      • Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a country in East Asia.
  • Burden of Proof
    • Burden of Proof is shared, as stated in the rules of this debate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contention 1: Adherence to the Definition

An excerpt from [1] says that “Sovereignty is the power of a state to do everything necessary to govern itself, such as making, executing, and applying laws; imposing and collecting taxes; making war and peace; and forming treaties or engaging in commerce with foreign nations”.

Thus, in this contention, I will bring up several cases in which Taiwan or the Republic of China has done these things, therefore fulfilling my burden of proof.

  1. Making, Applying and Executing Laws

Taiwan has the power to make, execute or apply laws to the piece of land that is specified within my opponent’s description. The laws of Taiwan can be found in source [2]. Since these laws exist it must be proof that Taiwan has made laws. A recent example of Taiwan making a law is when Taiwan passed a law targeting Chinese political interference[3].

Now, with the execution and application of those laws, we can look at the prison population of Taiwan, and clearly see that it has executed and applied its laws tens of thousands of times.[4]
  1. Imposing and Collecting Taxes

Taiwan has imposed taxes on its people, there are currently seven taxes imposed by the nation (not including local taxes)[5]. These taxes are the following:
  • Income Tax;
  • Estate and Gift Tax;
  • Value-Added and Non-Value-Added Business Tax;
  • Tobacco and Alcohol Tax;
  • Commodity Tax;
  • Securities Transaction Tax; and
  • Futures Transaction Tax
Taiwan has also collected these taxes, the amount collected totaling to NT 2.1 trillion in 2015[5].
 
  1. Making War and Peace
 
It is safe to say that the Republic of China has declared war, seen in the Second Sino-Japanese War. In this case, it was the Republic of China that was controlling the landmass of “China” when it declared war on Japan.[6] The Republic of China has also declared peace in the same scenario.
 
  1. Forming Treaties
The Republic of China or Taiwan has formed the mutual defense treaty with the United States as part of an effort to prevent the PRC from overtaking Taiwan.[7]
 
  1. Engaging in Commerce with Foreign Nations
Taiwan has engaged in commerce with the US, Japan, and even the PRC itself.[8]
 
 



Contention 2: Adherence to Article One of the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States.

Taiwan adheres to every requirement of statehood listed by the Montevideo Convention signed by over 15 nations. The requirements stated in the Convention are:
  1. A permanent population
  2. A defined territory
  3. Government; and
  4. Capacity to enter into relations with other states [9]
We can see that Taiwan meets all 4 of the qualifications.
  • It has a permanent population of over 23.3 million people
  • It rules over the island of Formosa.
  • The R.O.C. governs Taiwan with little to no opposition from its population.
  • As stated in Contention 1, Taiwan maintains trading relationships with other nations.

Therefore, by international law, Taiwan is a sovereign nation.

===================================================


Rebuttal:

“In order for one country to be a sovereign nation, one must declare independence.”

This is false. It is not a requirement by any international law that one must declare independence to become a nation.[9]

“According to reputable sources, the People's Republic of China is the successor to Republic of China[3]. What this means is that since Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China pre-1949, it would automatically belong to People's Republic of China. This means that Taiwan wasn't independent from 1949 to now. Even if you use another theory instead of this one, it would mean that the "RoC Government" actually has no territory, meaning that Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation this way either[4]”

First, PRO’s source never states that the land of the Republic of China belongs to the PRC. When a nation wins a war, they don’t just get all the territory that belongs to the nation that they defeated. The territorial changes made post-main-combat gave the PRC mainland China, and relocated the ROC to Taiwan.[10]



“If it only takes a nation declaring itself to be independent for itself to be sovereign, then I could print a flag, pass souvenirs, print a bill, and declare that my house is now an independent nation. That obviously doesn't work. 
If it only takes a few UN member states to recognize it to make a nation sovereign, then Abkhazia is also a sovereign nation, even though only a small percentage of nations admit that it is independent”

This is misleading voters. The laws regarding how to become a sovereign nation are clearly stated in [9]. The definition of a sovereign nation is clearly stated in[1].

“The UN has admitted that China has sovereignty over Taiwan[8]”

If we take a look at PRO’s source, we can see that it never actually says the ROC is part of China or China has sovereignty over Taiwan.

Pro’s source simply states that the PRC is China and the ROC is not. It states that there is one China, and that is the PRC. Notice that it never states that the PRC has sovereignty over the ROC. It says:
“Recognizing that the representatives of the Government of the People's Republic of China are the only lawful representatives of China to the United Nations and that the People's Republic of China is one of the five permanent members of the Security Council,
Decides to restore all its rights to the People's Republic of China and to recognize the representatives of its Government as the only legitimate representatives of China to the United Nations, and to expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it.”
 
“ Taiwan has not declared independence legally, meaning that it could not be a sovereign nation
  • The UN has decided that People's Republic of China has sovereignty over Taiwan
  • Thus, Taiwan is not a sovereign nation
  • VOTE PRO”
 
  • It is not a requirement by international law to declare independence.
  • The UN has not decided that the PRC has sovereignty over Taiwan, and the UN is not a reliable source when discussing China’s policies.
  • Taiwan fulfills all requirements by international law and definition.
  • Taiwan is a sovereign nation
  • Vote Con.
----------------------------------------------------

HOPE WE CAN HAVE GOOD ROUND 2. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Sources Listed:

Round 2
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#3
The difference between "Nation" and "Sovereign nation"

I have added the word "Sovereign" within, meaning that the Nationalist(KMT) Government not only has powers over the island of Taiwan but supposedly the ultimate authority over that island.

If a country isn't even independent(My opponent has dropped this, move on), then it has no sovereignty. Let's get into one close example.

Hong Kong(HK)

China = People's Republic of China = PRC
Taiwan = "Republic of China"

I am here to show that HK, although fulfilling the aforementioned requirements within the Montevideo Convention, is not a sovereign nation, as it is a special administrative zone that nevertheless still belongs to China(PRC).

  • HK has a permanent population(Over 7M[1])
  • HK has a defined territory[2]
  • HK has a government[2]
  • HK is capable of entering relations with other states(Entering WTO and other international organizations)[3](Has embassies)[4]
HK, is nevertheless still defined as a part of China instead of being a sovereign nation[5]. What this means is that since non-sovereign nations could satisfy all 4 criteria brought up by Con, wouldn't using only the Montevideo Convention to define whether a piece of land is a sovereign nation or not be flawed?

If you are arguing that it is an exception, show me why or stop it. I will give more examples.

Guam
  • Guam's territory is, well the island of Guam. There are people living on it, there is a government[6]
  • Guam has embassies[7]
Does that make Guam a sovereign nation instead of a part of the greater US? If my opponent says YES, then he is denying the true ways of the world, because Guam is a part of the US, despite it filling all 4 criteria of the barebone my opponent uses. In other words, to my opponent's train of thoughts, eventually he would recognize Guam and HK as independent nations with sovereignty, or TLDR, his(I assume Crocodile is male) system is flawed.

And there lies the problem: Only "statehood" is mentioned, and nothing of Sovereignty. In reality there are non-independent countries that has people, land, government and the ability to enter foreign relationships[8] but nevertheless has no sovereignty because another nation owns the entirety of its existence.

Argument with rebuttal: Taiwan isn't its own nation

This is misleading voters. The laws regarding how to become a sovereign nation are clearly stated in [9]. The definition of a sovereign nation is clearly stated in[1].
Let's get the obvious out of the way, this system is flawed and if you can't prove that HK is a sovereign state, neither could you Taiwan. Essentially it comes down to UN recognition and China is recognized by most[9], in the contrary, Taiwan is recognized by a few.

First, PRO’s source never states that the land of the Republic of China belongs to the PRC. When a nation wins a war, they don’t just get all the territory that belongs to the nation that they defeated. The territorial changes made post-main-combat gave the PRC mainland China, and relocated the ROC to Taiwan.[10]
There is something called the One-china policy[10] agreed between the PRC government and the ROC government that in fact, a single country, known as China, encompasses both the mainland area and Taiwan. I did not define that Taiwan is specifically ROC in the description. I have just used the pic of the island itself, and either way, the entire nation is Mainland + Taiwan, instead of Mainland or Taiwan.

This is on top of that most nations recognize PRC as "China" instead of ROC[9], meaning that on balance, Taiwan is owned by PRC and isn't its own sovereign nation. Now let's just scream the most unlikely event suppose the world suddenly switches to supporting ROC as "China", then Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation since then ROC would be the entire mainland China + Taiwan, instead of only the latter.

No matter what, Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation based on a policy both governments agree with.

Is Taiwan independent?

No. My opponent dropped that point, saying it is basically uneeded for a sovereign nation, then proceeds to use a flawed system for his entire argument. The definition of "Independence" or "Independent" means "to not be controlled by others"[11]. In order for a nation to have sovereignty, it is obvious it must be able to control itself, in other words, independent. Taiwan has not declared its independence, dropped. In order for a nation to be sovereign, said nation must declare independence, that, I think, is something we would agree on, because definitions are definitions.

The fact Taiwan hasn't broke war over China means that Taiwan has not declared independence yet(hope it never happens, conflicts are bad), thus it is not a sovereign nation.

Conclusion
  • The "Montevideo convention" stuff is flawed and according to that, pieces of land that aren't sovereign nations such as HK would become sovereign nations, which would be absurd.
  • The PRC government and the ROC government agrees that there is China as a whole, not between 2 states. Since most nations recognize PRC instead of ROC, it means on balance, China has sovereignty over Taiwan.
    • Even if ROC government is right, ROC then takes over mainland, making the specifically defined piece of land a part of a large nation, meaning it is not a sovereign nation.
  • Taiwan has not declared independence yet, dropped. 
    • In order for a nation to be sovereign, it needs to take full control of itself, which is what Independence is. Taiwan is not independent.
  • Taiwan is not a sovereign nation.
Sources... Oh boy...


The Wikipedia pages serve as hubs for more authentic sources, as listing all of them would take me too much time.
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
Con
#4
Forfeited
Round 3
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
Pro
#5
My opponent has forfeited the opportunity of the second round.
  • If he concludes, then nothing new will be made and all his points will be refuted, and I win
  • If he makes new points, then it is bad conduct, I win
Conclusions

  • The Montevideo Convention is a terrible set of criteria to refer to, as it would make non-indepentent pieces of land such as Hong Kong and Guam, independent and sovereign nations.
    • If you can't prove HK is an independent nation, neither could you prove that Taiwan is one.
    • According to the general consensus of the UN, Taiwan isn't considered to be an independent nation. People's Republic of China is considered to be a sovereign nation.
  • Taiwan is still a part of Greater China.
    • The PRC and ROC governments have agreed on that Mainland and Taiwan are together One China, so Taiwan, being only a part of Greater China, isn't independent nor sovereign
    • My opponent tried to move the definition, even though that I have defined Taiwan as a piece of land as opposed to a "government" or "ROC". It isn't independent.(His definition for Taiwan was also unsourced though)
  • A piece of land not being declared independence is a piece of land being controlled by another force, unless you live in Antarctica or something.
    • If a piece of land is mainly controlled by another force, it isn't mainly controlled by itself, making it not a sovereign nation
    • Taiwan had not declared independence after PRC controlled the Mainland China, and the ROC government had agreed that Taiwan is the same China as the Mainland, making it non-independent
    • Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation.
  • Vote Pro. 

Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
Con
#6
  1. I forfeited a round because I fell asleep while writing it.
  2. Here it is, judges can feel free to give a conduct point to Intelligence for me forfeiting and posting a rebuttal in the final round. 
Rebuttal:

My opponent seems to think that the only thing making a nation a sovereign nation is UN recognition. He has dropped the definition and calls international law “flawed”. I will prove that his argument has misled the voters in several ways.

My opponent first somehow questions the reliability of international law signed by more than 15 countries. This fact may say something about the soundness of his case.

Non-Exception: Hong Kong:

It is clear that in Article One, it is stated that, in order to become a nation, you must fulfill the qualifications:

  1. A permanent population
  2. A defined territory
  3. Government; and
  4. Capacity to enter into relations with other states  (as itself)

Hong Kong is not a nation, rather, part of China. The reason why Hong Kong is an exception is that it does not fulfill the 4th term, or the capacity to enter into relations with other states.

China represents Hong Kong in the UN.[1] In the World Trade Organization, Hong Kong participates in the name of “Hong Kong, China”. [2] China allows Hong Kong to be in these “international organizations” as an associate member, meaning that it is not a separate entity from China. China does not allow Hong Kong to have any diplomatic relationships not including China itself.[3]











Quote Rebuttals:



“Taiwan is still a part of Greater China.
  • The PRC and ROC governments have agreed on that Mainland and Taiwan are together One China, so Taiwan, being only a part of Greater China, isn't independent nor sovereign
  • My opponent tried to move the definition, even though that I have defined Taiwan as a piece of land as opposed to a "government" or "ROC". It isn't independent.(His definition for Taiwan was also unsourced though)”
The PRC and ROC have not agreed that Taiwan is part of China or are together in one china. The source in which PRO uses only proves that the PRC is China, it never says that Taiwan is part of China or the ROC is part of China. He must be using the one china principle to prove this, NOT, the one china policy. The One China Principle is strictly different from the One China Policy, proven in his OWN source: “The One China concept is different from the "One China principle", which is the principle that insists both Taiwan and mainland China are inalienable parts of a single "China".[3] A modified form of the "One China" principle known as the "1992 Consensus" is the current policy of the PRC government. Under this "consensus", both governments "agree" that there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan, but disagree about which of the two governments is the legitimate government of this state.” He also might be thinking that the 1992 consensus was agreed on by the ROC.  If so, why has the president of the ROC denied the existence of the consensus?[4] It is clear CON hasn’t read his own sources.
The definition my opponent has provided is flawed, which is why I added a new definition which he claims is flawed. If my opponent has done research regarding Taiwan, most certainly, he would find the obvious definition, here: Taiwan - Wikipedia.
 
My opponent continues to drop my definition argument, how Taiwan fulfills being a sovereign nation on all counts of the definition. He has not refuted to a significant degree why Taiwan isn’t a sovereign nation by definition. Hence, randomly dropping my first, and most important contention. 
 He continues to fallaciously say that Taiwan agreed that Taiwan was part of the PRC or China, which is false. He claims that international law is flawed, which must say something about the reliability of his argument. He also says that the main force controlling the nation of Taiwan is the PRC, though, it is obvious, by Taiwan’s military power, this is false.[5] It is clear that my opponent has made several false claims about Taiwan, and is at this point, blatantly lying. This must award a source point to me, as PRO has continued to misread the sources and thus mislead voters.
 
  1. Taiwan is a sovereign nation by definition
    1. Opponent has randomly dropped this
  2. Taiwan is a sovereign nation by international law
    1. Opponent has tried to paint this as flawed, bringing up false exceptions
    2. International law is more reliable than a person on the internet
  3. Taiwan is the ROC, and the ROC has never agreed to be part of China or the PRC.
    1. Opponent thinks that the One China Policy and the One China Principle are the same. This is disproved clearly in his own source.
  4. Taiwan, since fits the definition and legal requirements of a sovereign nation, is a sovereign nation.
  5. Vote PRO for Conduct
  6. Vote CON for Args and Sources.



Sources Listed: