Instigator / Con

Mall

1420

rating

396

debates

43.94%

won

Topic

#2619

Your proposal to the "race" problem....

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...

Mall

Tags

People

Parameters

Publication date: 11.11.2020 01:20PM
Last updated date: 11.21.2020 01:38PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One day
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Pro

seldiora

1417

rating

158

debates

32.59%

won

Description

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Please provide a proposed solution to "racism". What is your method, code, idea, formula, whatever, that will help replace or eliminate all "racism" so that everyone will receive the proper treatment not involving "racial" discrimination?

How would you work or have others work as proposed to improve "race relations"?

Now be it that it's a proposal, you can't prove your method will work. But you do have to prove it is the best method yet, possibly ever thought up.

If the deductive reasoning is there to stand tenable with your concept , I'll stand to concede that. If I am able to undermine what's said on the basis of invalid points, you can come back to try again in another challenge.

For questions , please comment /send a message.

Round 1

Mall

11.12.2020 12:50PM

Con

What is your proposed solution to the "race" problem, "race relations"?

So that we can all get along and like one another, what can we do?

seldiora

11.12.2020 02:11PM

Pro

My proposal is to simply believe in God. By definition, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. He knows the best thing to do and he will execute it if you have faith, because he represents all that is good in the world. So if he does nothing, then we deserve the punishment of racism, and it is not a real problem, because even the all knowing all good being decides that inaction is the best solution. In the past, he has proved that we are able to transcend racism by building the Tower of Babel to reach god, despite having different languages and cultures. So he would be able to know the best solution, because he knows everything.

Proof of God

Kalam Cosmological Argument

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of God.

Ontological Argument

The concept of a maximally great being is self-consistent.
If 1, then there is at least one logically possible world in which a maximally great being exists.
Therefore, there is at least one logically possible world in which a maximally great being exists.
If a maximally great being exists in one logically possible world, it exists in every logically possible world.
Therefore, a maximally great being (that is, God) exists in every logically possible world (and our world)

Plato's Argument

1. All humans value things that are "good" such as beauty, virtue, truth and justice

2. Such things cannot come from Darwinism alone, since heroic sacrifice defeats the purpose of self survival, but is considered good

3. As God is the form of all things that are good, God exists.

I await pro's questioning.

Round 2

Mall

11.12.2020 08:23PM

Con

There are some holes with the proposal of just believing in God.

Those that don't believe in God that aren't racist so called, why wasn't theism the answer for them to not be "racist"?

I guess by the flip side, a theist can't be a racist so called.

Not even the theist that believes in God that made a group to be inferior to a superior group,is that so?

Now I don't have to ask will this work or not, this proposal, as it's just a proposal.

It appears that by deductive examination, that theistic faith is not a fix or even applicable to a social problem.

Perhaps a "racist" that became a theist is no longer a "racist". It was a fix for that person. But what about all people?

People that will remain non-theistic, what can you propose then?

What you offered could be a start but it's insufficient.

seldiora

11.12.2020 08:30PM

Pro

Because God has a plan for all of us, as long as someone believes in him, there will be sufficient cause for change. In the bible, he had punished sinners severely for their errors in their ways. When people refused to believe in him, he accepted this and sent them through a transformative journey, and the vast majority changed their minds. The few who were completely unwilling, were smite by his fury and sent to hell as a transgression. As you have not countered my proofs, I take it that you also agree that God exists. As such, because his nature is all good, everything that he does is perfect. So this solution will be the best solution possible. He has his own way of changing people's mind, and society for the better. How can we, mere humans alone, question his virtue, his truth guiding the universe?

Round 3

Mall

11.13.2020 01:39PM

Con

Your response didn't deal with my questions.

Your message came off more like an evangelist message and basically a deflection.

You mentioned countering proofs. You haven't proven that this will work and according to my leading questions , it's not working currently. So as far as proving the best method yet, I don't think so. Unless you can clear up those questions I asked. That was my counter.

seldiora

11.13.2020 02:30PM

Pro

But that is the exact definition of God. Even though non-theists feel like nothing has been solved, if he exists, he encompasses all. So we are being justly punished for our sins. Just as a criminal being in jail and justly being rehabilitated is not a problem, the racism as an extension should also not be a problem. Because the wisest being in the universe judges it as so. Therefore whatever we allow God to do is the perfect solution.

Round 4

Mall

11.14.2020 10:41AM

Con

Those that don't believe in God that aren't racist so called, why wasn't theism the answer for them to not be "racist"?

I guess by the flip side, a theist can't be a racist so called.

Not even the theist that believes in God that made a group to be inferior to a superior group,is that so?

Perhaps a "racist" that became a theist is no longer a "racist". It was a fix for that person. But what about all people?

People that will remain non-theistic, what can you propose then?

seldiora

11.14.2020 01:38PM

Pro

Mall has only repeated himself. He has failed to counter the fact that God if real is perfect and we should just let him execute his plan. Because he is all good, his actions will result in the best result possible.

seldiora

11.14.2020 11:09PM

I should've argued Nihilism instead. Doing nothing is the best solution possible, because nothing matters.

seldiora

11.14.2020 11:09PM

-->

@MisterChris

nuuuuuuuu

fauxlaw

11.14.2020 09:53PM

-->

@Mall

@seldiora

I realize I've made an error in my vote in verbiage under "Argument." Where I say "..discounts that whatever has always existed has no cause," please read "... has always existed also has cause." Doesn't affect the vote, but clarifies what I was trying to say.

seldiora

11.12.2020 09:27PM

-->

@Theweakeredge

I was tempted to go for something else like the button that customizes your perfect life, or even the button that revives your most loved one LOL

Theweakeredge

11.12.2020 09:22PM

-->

@seldiora

Just so you know - I sighed when I read that - I suppose. Idk, I feel like killing all humanity is pretty creative compared to: Believe in god.

Mostly the arguments, just.... the arguments.....

seldiora

11.12.2020 09:20PM

-->

@Theweakeredge

to be fair, it's more creative than killing all humanity

Theweakeredge

11.12.2020 09:17PM

-->

@seldiora

I am ashamed of you

Sum1hugme

11.11.2020 01:21PM

Ha, impatient I see

MisterChris

11.14.2020 10:06PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Interpreting the BoP:

Under the description, CON quantifies that PRO must accomplish 2 things:

1. Provide a solution to racism, even if that solution may not be achievable
2. Prove that it is the best method.

RFD:

I am awarding CON arguments. Not so much because he was making good arguments, but because PRO was making bad ones.

Simple belief in God somehow translating to a fix for racism is pretty tough to prove, especially given that most Pro-Slavery arguments were originally made based on the Bible, something which CON alludes to here:

"I guess by the flip side, a theist can't be a racist so called. Not even the theist that believes in God that made a group to be inferior to a superior group,is that so?"

Aside from the whole slavery and imperialism thing, what makes this even worse is that PRO doesn't just have to prove it is a viable solution, but that it is the best, and works on all people. As a voter I can't really buy PRO's argument because he has set up for himself an insurmountable BoP which he doesn't attempt to engage with other than repeat the "God knows best" spiel. How is something the best solution if it forces us to convert people to a religion? Didn't CON already point out that many people are "not racist" but also non-religious? Shouldn't the answer be all-encompassing?

I'm also not seeing how PRO went from "God exists" to "everything in the Bible is true." There are hundreds of religions that believe in creation ex nihilo by a God, how are we to assume it is the Christian God?

There are just so many logical problems with PRO's case I can't accept it.

fauxlaw

11.14.2020 09:50PM

Criterion

Con

Tie

Pro

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Argument: Pro's argument was virtually all consumed in syllogisms, none of which hold. The syllogism beginning "Whatever begins to exist has a cause" is flawed because it discounts that whatever has always existed has no cause. Therefore, what follows falls. And the one "The concept of a maximally great being is self-consistent" is also flawed because it discounts that a non-extant max great being is also self-consistent, so all that follows fails. And Plato's "All humans value things that are 'good'" fails because not all humans value goodness, therefore what follows fails. IN all three, P1 makes assumptions. Con successfully rebutted all three by Con's primary argument "Those that don't believe in God that aren't racist so called, why wasn't theism the answer for them to not be 'racist?'" Pro never adequately rebutted the argument. Points to Con.

Sources: Neither debater used searchable, verifiable sources. Tie

S&G: Tie

Conduct: Con very nearly failed in Conduct for an apparently incoherent [nearly non-existent argument], however, it was, essentially, an interrogative argument, which is a legitimate argument. Con even established a verifiable goal: to achieve getting along with one another [the antithesis of racism] Tie.